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Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?  
User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 20384 times:

I was just going to through my spotting pictures and it hit me AC don't have any of the mention A/C, is there a reason why don't have any? I know they used to have 747 in the past!


A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 20347 times:

They had both A340-300's and A340-500's until a few years ago.


Word
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30927 posts, RR: 87
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20253 times:
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They likely do not need the capacity of the 744 or A388. They are 77W operators, which are as big as the earlier model 747s they used to fly.

And as noted, they did have the A340-300 and A340-500, but retired them in favor of the 777-200LR.


User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3238 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20139 times:

AC also had 747-400s in the past, albeit just 3 Combis which did some Pacific sectors. They acquired a few more when they merged with CP in 2000. The Jumbos were too large for AC's present day operations hence their withdrawal around 2003. At that time they concentrated their long-haul fleet on the A330-300, A340-300 and 767-300 with the A340-500s (just 2) in for the very longest services. The arrival of the 777-200LRs and 777-300ERs about 4 years ago led to the withdrawal of the A340s but the A330s and 767s soldier on.

AC, like most North American airlines have no need for anything as large as the 747, let alone A380. Also note that their last indigenous 747-400s as Combi models would have had a capacity comparable to a 777-200 in any case.

Trintocan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20110 times:

More to do with the population of Canada being so widely spread across a large area. This has lead to direct international long-haul for most major cities in Canada. If the population was concentrated in one or two main cities we'd likely see AC using VLAs.

User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19478 times:

AC did also have A340-600's on order along with the 500's, but never took them, I assume in favor of the 77W.

Back when the 747's were ordered, like many airlines they were required for their range and 4 engines, not necessarily capacity. Now with the ETOPS and the efficiency of twins for sectors over the Arctic & Pacific particularly in AC's case, the aircraft is no longer required.

The 77W/77L not only does everything AC used the A340 family and 744 better and then some, but due to the amount of cargo they can uplift it allowed AC to terminate various ACMI cargo agreements plus made the 74M redundant. They had a DC10/MD11 (from Gemini IIRC) under permanent contract at one point. Plus they lost the domestic Canada Post contract to Kelowna Flightcraft which reduced the need for cargo capacity.

I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19324 times:

AC has no requirement for anything larger than the 77W and even it is probably slightly too big for much of the year considering the extreme seasonality of many AC markets.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19220 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.

Which routes command the level of demand to make an A380 justifiable? Even as such, I'm sure it would reduce frequencies, which would not benefit AC.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3207 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19193 times:

Didn't AC get those 744's from CP?


AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19160 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):
Didn't AC get those 744's from CP?

They got CP's 4 all-passenger 744s. AC had 3 744M combis of their own.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3207 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19042 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
They got CP's 4 all-passenger 744s. AC had 3 744M combis of their own.

Thanks, I did not know that, what route or routes was AC buying & using them to operate, Just the Pacific?



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 18955 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
They got CP's 4 all-passenger 744s. AC had 3 744M combis of their own.

Thanks, I did not know that, what route or routes was AC buying & using them to operate, Just the Pacific?

The CP 744s were mainly used to Asia and in their latter years of service the AC combis were almost exclusively used to Europe.


User currently offlineBAViscount From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2338 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 18809 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
AC had 3 744M combis of their own.

AC always used to send 747s into LHR (along with L1011s) back when I were a lad - were they 747 Combis?



Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barb
User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17864 times:

Can we See AC Getting into the B787 in the near future? As I am sure sooner or later they gonna have to replace some of their Fleets!


A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlinebyronicle6 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2011, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17785 times:

Quoting kl692 (Reply 13):

If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that AC have ordered 37 787-8 which will enter service in 2014


User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17759 times:

Quoting byronicle6 (Reply 14):

That would be a very welcoming news if it turns out to be true



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlineCessna172RG From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17687 times:

At the end of 2002, I flew from Vancouver to Honolulu on a 747-400, an ex-Canadian bird and I don't believe it was a combi...it was also used later on that same evening to go from Honolulu to Sydney. So that's one example of how some of those birds were used.

I did fly AC to Narita from Vancouver twice on a 767 a year later, so I don't know if they were used to Tokyo or not prior to that time.



Save the whales...for dinner!!!
User currently offlinerichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17267 times:

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 12):
AC always used to send 747s into LHR (along with L1011s) back when I were a lad - were they 747 Combis?

When I was a lad they operated charter services in the summer months from YYZ to BFS & DUB with 747-100/200 not sure which ? and L1011's. So I guess they had 747's that were not combis. This would of been 1987-90 sort of time scale.

Alex


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17094 times:

Quoting kl692 (Reply 15):
That would be a very welcoming news if it turns out to be true




Oh, it is true. I mean the AC 788 order. It happened during the "we don't care if we ruin the company, but we'll get rid of Airbus" management period (Milton, Brewer). I had a picture of a 77W and 788 in AC livery flying in formation set as my wallpaper for several years.
Now, when exactly will AC receive the 788's is a different story.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
The 77W/77L not only does everything AC used the A340 family and 744 better and then some,



Does it really? The 77W has way better CASM than the 343, however, on many routes AC has a problem to fill them. In these cases the lower trip cost of the 343 would be probably advantageous. As far as the 77L is concerned, AC currently doesn't have a route that really requires it. YVR-SYD is within the reach of 77W.
I can't help it, I have a feeling that 77L's are redundant in AC's fleet and AC should have gone a different way - using a 77W/333 combo. But who am I to talk about it...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17004 times:

Air Canada had 747-200s as passenger aircraft as well, back in the 70s they were with the first operators of the 747. I flew often FRA-YYZ AC871 which was, over the years, anything from various DC8 models to L1011 to 747-200.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 16954 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
AC has no requirement for anything larger than the 77W and even it is probably slightly too big for much of the year considering the extreme seasonality of many AC markets.

Long term it looks to me that either A358/A359 or all B789 are the way to go for AC, the 77L is very ineffient and the 77W too big.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 16909 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 7):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.

Which routes command the level of demand to make an A380 justifiable? Even as such, I'm sure it would reduce frequencies, which would not benefit AC.

On what routes indeed. As well, what about the inherent higher cost of adding another type to the fleet, particularly a type in small numbers.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Thanks, I did not know that, what route or routes was AC buying & using them to operate, Just the Pacific?

Generally the -400s were used to NRT & HKG from YVR, and the 74Ms from YYZ/YUL to LHR, CDG, and FRA.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 16778 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):
Oh, it is true. I mean the AC 788 order. It happened during the "we don't care if we ruin the company, but we'll get rid of Airbus" management period (Milton, Brewer). I had a picture of a 77W and 788 in AC livery flying in formation set as my wallpaper for several years.

You right, I see that they order 37 of them and can't wait to see them in AC Lively. In terms of routes AC just needs to expand. It seems like they are comfortable being were they are and don't want to try different things. On the other hand I see WestJet as of the airlines to keep an eye on. And I am wondering if they will ever get into the cross Atlantic side.



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlineStarAc17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3363 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16555 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
AC has no requirement for anything larger than the 77W and even it is probably slightly too big for much of the year considering the extreme seasonality of many AC markets.

They are moved around contiously depending on where its peak season, around now they will be put on routes like YYZ-SCL-EZE and YYZ-GRU and taken off of routes like YYZ-CDG and a 763 or an A333 will be swapped in on routes like YYZ-LHR and YYZ-FRA.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):

Does it really? The 77W has way better CASM than the 343, however, on many routes AC has a problem to fill them. In these cases the lower trip cost of the 343 would be probably advantageous. As far as the 77L is concerned, AC currently doesn't have a route that really requires it. YVR-SYD is within the reach of 77W.

AC has the 77L for cargo IIRC. For example on YYZ-HKG CX uses a 77W on it and it is weight restricted on how much cargo can be taken while AC has no such restrictions.

Also these routes require 2 for a daily service and AC only has 6 77L's



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16470 times:

Quoting kl692 (Reply 22):
You right, I see that they order 37 of them and can't wait to see them in AC Lively. In terms of routes AC just needs to expand.

I'm sure a lot of AC staff feel the same way. The 788s allow for a 1-to-1 replacement of 763s plus a little growth. I believe there are options as well, which could become 789s.

For new routes, I'd expect something along the lines of:

YYZ/YVR - BOM/DEL
YYZ - GIG
YUL - BEY
YVR - CAN

As a reach, I'd also nominate as possibles:
YUL - HKG
YYC - HKG
YYZ - SVO
YVR - SIN
YYZ - JNB/CPT (but I doubt it)

Of course, with the proposed LCC spin off, AC might look considerably different in five years' time. Would the LCC take the old 763s, revamped with an all-Y/Y+ cabin, for example ?



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
25 ordjoe : The total population of Canada is about 35 million I believe. That really is not all that much especially for a country that size.
26 katanapilot : 'The total population of Canada is about 35 million I believe. That really is not all that much especially for a country that size.' It's a lot of peo
27 bavair : The other thing is that you have to remember that a lot of people living in Canada aren't Canadian. Especially in Vancouver there are a lot of Asians
28 jfk777 : The 777 fleet replaced the 744 and A340 fleets. The A330 are still flown by AC, primarily on the Atlantic.
29 Navigator : I think if Air Canada had greater ambitions in building hubs at either Toronto or Montreal large planes could be justified but in my view Air Canada
30 cmf : Often stated as truth but history does not support it.
31 Stitch : I would think airlines replacing 747-100s and 747-200s with DC-10s and L-1011s when those airframes became available should be enough historical proo
32 EddieDude : Hello Burkhard, I am not trying to contradict you or anything, but I'd like to know how you concluded that the 77L is inefficient. Thanks.
33 Post contains links caribb : From YUL the most widely rumored Asian destination is Beijing not Hong Kong. It's on the Airport's short term list of preferred destinations to serve
34 katanapilot : i also expect to see more service from YOW to europe with a 788....probably AMS and/or CDG. Right now they only serve LHR and FRA from YOW, but the re
35 cmf : If they were only interested in the range and not the capacity they could have ordered 707-320B instead. No doubt many airlines bought 747 for the wr
36 ac033 : 77L is insufficient?????? I bet the DC8 is!!!!!!! Maybe not YVR-CAN, since its already operated by CZ. But YYZ-CAN with the 788 sounds good. YYZ defi
37 Post contains images WestJet747 : These all seem very likely. Although I'm unsure about BEY (simply because I know very little of this market), and GIG (they were once before and term
38 SunriseValley : They explained at the time why they purchased them . It was because of the incremental cargo capacity. In fact they changed some 777F's when it becam
39 fraspotter : I remember seeing them at FRA... Such a beautiful sight to see all those 744s from various airlines parked at FRA... Thai, LH, JL, NH, UA, QF, AI, AC
40 connies4ever : AMS is a low yield destination, but CDG is a possibility. Well, AirAsiaX seem to be operating nothing but widebodies. Scoot will do the same. There a
41 longhauler : The proposed LCC will not fly domestically. It is proposed to fly vacation and low yield international destinations. The initial fleet plan is for A3
42 seabosdca : On the contrary, history supports this proposition very strongly. As soon as smaller aircraft with the range of the 747 (A340, MD-11, 777) became ava
43 cmf : DC-10 was available long before those models and 747-400 sold about half of all 747. The 747-400 alone outsold contemporary A340 and MD-11 put togeth
44 connies4ever : The all Y A319s are the ones leased to Mexicana ? And the all-Y 763s are from HA, correct ? Would the LCC offer a Y+ in the front part of the cabin,
45 WestJet747 : AirAsia X was born from AirAsia, who has always and continues to operate A320s. I've read very little into Scoot; what types will they be flying? Tha
46 kl692 : So the rumor that AC apply for traffic right to ACC could be true and the route will be serve once they get this LCC going?
47 aircanada014 : Don't forget AC believe pax prefer frequency over onestop daily B747-8 or A380 to LHR or to FRA. We know AC offers at least 4 dailies to LHR from YYZ
48 seabosdca : The DC-10, even the DC-10-30, never had the range of any 747 (-200B or better). Most of those 747-400 passenger sales came about before the A340 was
49 YVRLTN : I dont have all the figures available to me the bean coutners do. I know there was a school of opinion at the time that the A340's should be kept as
50 longhauler : The only union employees with a "scope clause" are the pilots and the AMEs. Technically, they are the only unions that have to give approval. The way
51 cmf : One A380 flight require less fuel per passenger. But had enough range for the vast majority of routes flown. Look at the order dates and there is a l
52 connies4ever : AirAsiaX are flying 343s and 333s and Scoot will mount up on recycled ex-SIA 772s and 772ERs (no surprise since they are a creature of SIA).
53 bos2laf : But the beauty of the seasonality is that one destination's high season is another destination's low season. In the winter, you'll see the 77Ws flyin
54 longhauler : Air Canada's history with the B747, actually mirrors the aircraft itself. In the late 1960s when these aircraft were ordered, it became very apparent
55 NorthStarDC4M : Yup AC got 2 -200 combis and 3 -400 combis new, and 1 -238 combi from QANTAS, heres the whole fleet by registration: C-FTOA 747-133 (to People Expres
56 Post contains images cmf : Note the word range wasn't used a single time And I do think this is a fair description.
57 Viscount724 : AC was the first carrier to order and operate the -200M combi.
58 greenjet : For info, Air Canada still has two A340s on lease (C-GDVW and C-GDVZ) but these have been subleased to AirAsia X.
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