point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8043 times:
.... Ole...... and interesting...
Throw in DEN-HUX, and they'll pretty much have the beach resorts covered....
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7999 times:
Cool! Definitely interested to see how the Apple Vacations partnership evolves.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7956 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 1): Throw in DEN-HUX, and they'll pretty much have the beach resorts covered....
I think that could be a decent route for F9. Sun Country applied for 1 x weekly service there from MSP back in 2005, but it never ended up starting
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7907 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3): I think that could be a decent route for F9. Sun Country applied for 1 x weekly service there from MSP back in 2005,
I believe that U5 (Apple) did it from ORD, so Apple already knows the territory. If it's good or not, I guess that's another matter.....
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22871 posts, RR: 87 Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7788 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 4): I believe that U5 (Apple) did it from ORD, so Apple already knows the territory. If it's good or not, I guess that's another matter.....
g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 751 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7738 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): As part of its upcoming Apple Vacations partnership, Frontier Airlines has filed with the DOT for several additional traffic authorities to Mexico.
Philadelphia – Cancun – 6x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012
slowly but surely Cancun is making a come back. I remember back in 2004-2005, airlines would announce new Cancun services what seemed on a weekly basis. That place grew out of control
yellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5276 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7668 times:
Quoting g500 (Reply 6): That place grew out of control
Still out of control. I don't know how anyone makes any money there.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7597 times:
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7): Still out of control. I don't know how anyone makes any money there.
At least this is just a shift in servce (From U5 to F9) so it doesn't represent an increase in the number of seats flown to CUN.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7509 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 5): A few years ago, Frontier used to fly DEN-HUX, purely as a charter for Apple, it was never scheduled service. But Apple pulled it all back to ORD.
What year was this, and is there some time of link or website where this was announced (not that I'm doubting you; just for my own curiosity)
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22871 posts, RR: 87 Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7475 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 9): What year was this, and is there some time of link or website where this was announced (not that I'm doubting you; just for my own curiosity)
It began in 2007 and - from memory - I think it flew for a couple of seasons:
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6157 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7439 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): As part of its upcoming Apple Vacations partnership, Frontier Airlines has filed with the DOT for several additional traffic authorities to Mexico.
Philadelphia – Cancun – 6x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012
All routes will be operated on seasonal basis and listed as schedule service, with capacity allocated to Apple Vacations.
Well, only some of the capacity is allocated to Apple...otherwise they wouldn't need traffic rights. They intend to sell tickets on the F9 brand. I would hope/assume that Apple just puts that revenue against their bill.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22871 posts, RR: 87 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7378 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 11): Well, only some of the capacity is allocated to Apple...otherwise they wouldn't need traffic rights. They intend to sell tickets on the F9 brand. I would hope/assume that Apple just puts that revenue against their bill.
As has been posted before, several of the Mexican routes are flown "in conjunction" with Apple, as is DEN-LIR.
MKE-CUN is - or was - operated in conjunction with Funjet, who guarantee a certain capacity purchase. Airtran has Apple on that route, at the moment.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22241 posts, RR: 51 Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7212 times:
They are filing for the authority as the flights will be shown as "scheduled service", the same manner many USA 3000 flights for Apple existed prior.
Anyhow for reference, pure charter flights are also run by the DOT - to Charter Office which maintains copies of contracts with bond information and intended schedules.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22871 posts, RR: 87 Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7171 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13): They are filing for the authority as the flights will be shown as "scheduled service", the same manner many USA 3000 flights for Apple existed prior.
I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.
okie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2410 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7117 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): All routes will be operated on seasonal basis and listed as schedule service, with capacity allocated to Apple Vacations
I just wonder how many seats are Apple's and how many F9 has to fill?
That would be an interesting contract.
mke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2327 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7056 times:
Don't know if you mean in general or just F9, but FL is flying MKE-PUJ for Funjet Vacations this winter and I'm pretty sure they flew it last year as well.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22871 posts, RR: 87 Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7017 times:
Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 15): I wonder if this means they may move from MDW to ORD or if some of U5's ORD routes could move to MDW or MKE. I'd sure love to see MKE-PUJ or MKE-PUJ.
I suspect most of the "pure Apple" flying, the charter stuff, will stay at ORD and I'm not sure they would split the operation.
When the third Chicago-CUN authority became vacant, Frontier applied for it as MDW-CUN, but, from memory, it went to USA3000 for ORD-CUN.
The airline has a few of interesting authorities, some of which were renewed just a few months ago - June - which is a bit odd, since by that time they must have known it was going to close.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7003 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 14): I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.
XA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6340 times:
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7): Still out of control. I don't know how anyone makes any money there.
Yes, you maybe right, to a certain extent...
Now, I pretty know yields may not be as good as desired, but definitely, the number of additional seats being offered to the destination from the USA/Canada, Europe and South America, is only good news to everyone in the Mayan Riviera.
Cancún is, again, gaining momentum, but eventually, market conditions will stabilize and come back to control.
As a side note, it would be very intersting to know, how much of the traffic arriving in Cancún is taking side trips to wonderful Mayaland in Central America, especially, Belize, Guatemala and Honduras.
Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6157 posts, RR: 12 Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6048 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 12): Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Well, only some of the capacity is allocated to Apple...otherwise they wouldn't need traffic rights. They intend to sell tickets on the F9 brand. I would hope/assume that Apple just puts that revenue against their bill.
As has been posted before, several of the Mexican routes are flown "in conjunction" with Apple, as is DEN-LIR.
MKE-CUN is - or was - operated in conjunction with Funjet, who guarantee a certain capacity purchase. Airtran has Apple on that route, at the moment.
mariner
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13): They are filing for the authority as the flights will be shown as "scheduled service", the same manner many USA 3000 flights for Apple existed prior.
I was only making the point that Apple isn't buying all the seats since the services will be scheduled not charter. I'm not saying it is a new concept for them or anyone else.
Quoting okie (Reply 16): I just wonder how many seats are Apple's and how many F9 has to fill?
My guess is that it will be flexible and inventory managed by flight. Hopefully, Apple buys the whole plane and then uses F9's distribution to sell the number of seats that they think are excess. I would hope F9 does not have risk because the seats that Apple can't sell are by definition less desirable. For example, there are probably no seats available in March and plenty for sale in April.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19): Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.
Haven't we "been told" this for years?
I'm also hearing that F9 is working on a transaction that would allow USA3000 to close up earlier by effectively taking the remaining USA3K airplane into the F9 fleet through a swap with the lessor.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5677 times:
Is Rockford considered part of Chicago, like ORD and MDW would be considered the same when applying (or counting) some of these route authorities when dealing with Mexico? Or is it considered its own separate, or different market here, like the way, say maybe, Omaha and Des Moines would?
Just curious to know this myself, so if anyone can answer please here......
25 point2point: Interesting.... I guess one could think that F9 (RAH) is acquiring another airline..... ?? It sure does look like it, taking over first a lot of the
26 mariner: And I wasn't arguing with you. This is the first extension of the Apple/Frontier contract beyond charter, so I was making the point - for those here
27 enilria: In fact, the additional A320 that F9 announced in the earnings call would be taken in January is a USA3000 airplane, but there is apparently a deal f
28 mariner: I believe so. USA3000 had (has?) held a scheduled authority for some time, and I am interested in the mechanics of that. The Big Plum is that it hold
29 LAXintl: Yes being scheduled service on many routes, USA3000 does offer seat only sales on its Cancun flying. But since they are a wholly owned by Apple it rea
30 flyingcaT: There is a two issues MDW does not have customs and Mexico does not have preclearance facilities.
31 LAXintl: I guess I must have been dreaming when having passed through. MDW does certainly have FIS facilities - nice ones at that which opened in 2002. Airlin
32 luv2fly: Is Frontier going to operate these flights in reverse order? Say with an aircraft arriving in CUN from a scheduled flight now operating say CUN to CLE
33 mariner: Some will operate that way, some are repositions. At the moment, an A320 flies the short hop PHL-BWI for the BWI Apple flights, but that may change a
34 yellowtail: Actually just finished a study on it.....and it is time of the year dependent but about 8% of the traffic that needs to fly in/out of Belize (for onl
35 point2point: More service is going to be added? So much speculation of F9 needing a codeshare partner, or that it would be best taken over by UA or WN, or that it
36 mariner: Sure. The contract is in its very early days (a month?) from only two destinations with limited frequency. In December/January, it all bumps up and m
37 usairways85: While U5 may have scheduled authority they have backed off over the years (at least from PHL). I vaguely remember PHL with 3 or 4 U5 destinations and
38 mariner: It's been winding down everywhere. Here's the route map of what is left today today: http://www.usa3000.com/wherewefly.htm By the end of January, it
39 point2point: Out of my own curiosity, would anyone happen to have easy accessed info on routes/schedules that U5 flew some 3-4 years ago or so, and if so, when co
40 usairways85: This looks something like U5 back at the peak. Though, I am not sure of the exact time fram of this route map. http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/USA/US
41 XA744: Hey, Yellowtail, thanks for the input... very enlightening and useful info, indeed !!! Best regards
42 point2point: Oh WOW! I had no idea that this was so BIG! And as for the time frame, that would be helpful as well, although I don't see one listed on the site. An
43 Mexicana757: I was thinking about that the other day. If Frontier ends up taking over U5 routes would they end up moving their ops to ORD from MDW ... But at ORD
44 enilria: There is certainly precedent for carriers purchasing int'l route authorities. The DOT would have to approve. I don't know why Mexico should be differ
45 point2point: Thanks both for the info. I think that is the case as well, that they are separate markets, in that ORD and MDW are about 15 or so miles apart, as wh
46 mariner: That's true. I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, USA3000 still holds PHL-CUN and CLE-CUN and yet Frontier is making a new application rather t
47 LAXintl: Sure route authorities can be transferred by financial transactions – that is essentially what happened earlier this year with CO’s authorities fo
48 mariner: But that's my point - that to my knowledge, it requires the purchase of the AOC. Enilria's point was more sophisticated - as he reminded me, I don't
49 point2point: I don't know how much it would be worth but... With the Apple Vacations and F9 relationship growing and getting tighter, I could imagine that there h
50 mariner: Maybe? Of course, maybe. I am sure anything is possible. I don't know if Apple would want shares in the new Frontier, they're trying to disentangle t
51 point2point: I'm looking at F9's site, and wondered if it is possible to buy a seat on any of the flights that F9 is taking over for U5 on this site. It appears th
52 BAC111: First I've heard of it. Couple of days ago, I saw F9 is flying a twice-weekly PHL-BWI-PUJ, a former U5 route. Then lo and behold, this topic appears
53 mikefrommke: I think that's what this whole thread is about, that F9 will also be able to sell tickets on these flights and that's why they are getting the author
54 mariner: For the pure charter flights? No. You;d have to go to Apple. Once the new route authorities are approved (assuming they are), yes, you will be able t
55 point2point: Yes, but one can go to the Apple Vacations site, and book ORD/HUX already, and the air segment of this vacation package is being flown by F9. This ca
56 mariner: Why? Because Frontier does not have - and has not applied for - approval of ORD-HUX as scheduled flights. Whether it will, at some point in the futur
57 point2point: Okay, then that makes sense. I think that I understand now. The ORD-HUX flight at this time is strictly a charter, it's not quite like the U5 flights
58 mariner: Pretty much. At this stage of the game, Frontier is NOT taking over USA3000 - it is not buying the AOC. They are two separate issues. Apple has contr
59 point2point: Okay, thank you. and now it's definitely clearer, at least for me. And yes, I realize that this is all speculative, but a lot to be speculated about
60 LAXintl: Well today Frontier put in for some more Mexico authorities. Chicago - Cancun - 7x weekly - A320 effective January 31, 2012. Chicago - Puerto Vallarta
62 point2point: Absolutely, and good for F9, and good luck to them in getting these. Maybe if no other airline objects here, then the authorities should be theirs...
63 mariner: All of the above. I love it - I think it is chutzpah of a high order, but I'm not holding my breath. mariner
64 flyingcaT: Too expensive to go after a certificate for some non core leisure routes.
65 point2point: I guess that this might POSSIBLY give us a clue as to whether or not RAH could be interested in the U5 AOC. If they get the authorities, then why bot
66 mariner: As before, I'm happy to let it play out as it will. I think they've got Buckley's of persuading the DOT to accept this, but stranger things have happ
67 737av8rz: It would appear as though we have a turn around in the making.
68 point2point: So I'm assuming that your saying that it is much more costly to transfer an AOC, as opposed to shutting it down and letting another airline file for
69 Mexicana757: Nice to see them apply for these routes. I guess if they get all three we know MDW's days are soon to be over. Would make sense for Frontier to just
70 point2point: The only hold-up that I would see with this is that ORD's CPE (Cost per Enplaned Passenger) is projected to be around $31 by 2015, and that MDW will
71 mariner: I think they'll have quite a lot to say. The only other example of this I can recall is when Delta tried to switch LAX-GDL to a Connection carrier, a
72 timberwolf24: What about F9 service ORD to MBJ? Will they file for scheduled authority on that route too? I'm surprised in the Mexico filing that they did not inclu
73 mariner: The new contract is in its very early days - Frontier has only been (charter) flying a couple of routes for Apple for about a month. So far, the six
74 LAXintl: Well, the first objection is in. Today Airtran Airways (as wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest Airlines) filed with the DOT that while it does not ob
75 Mexicana757: And it has started... Now to see if Spirit will go after this route too.
76 mariner: Possibly the most predictable thing I've seen in a while. mariner
77 LAXintl: I suppose the DOT will institute a full route selection process whereby everyone will be able to plead their plans. Then DOT can determine who it feel
78 mariner: I think it is funny that, originally, in the polling letter, Airtran had not objected to Frontier getting ORD-CUN and - for just a moment - it looked
79 Mexicana757: Thanks for posting that link. Southwest sure does want Chicago-CUN authority or at least make it difficult for F9 getting it.
80 mariner: A bit of both, I imagine. Has Brendan Airways actually told the DOT it is relinquishing the authority yet? mariner
81 timberwolf24: I know Wikipedia is not the best source of information, but on the O'Hare airport page it lists that all USA 3000 service ends January 2, 2012. I wen
82 mariner: Originally, the plan was that USA3000 was to stick around (at least on ORD-CUN) until July. Then, a couple of weeks ago, it changed and I assume that
83 FL787: I'm sure that's what would happen. I doubt WN is interested in working with Apple (and probably vice versa) on MDW-CUN considering WN wouldn't have a
84 LAXintl: DOT this morning approved the planned Chicago - PVR route for start up on or after January 31, 2012 and SJD for start up on or after February 12, 2012
85 mariner: Should I be surprised that no action has yet been taken (or none that I have seen) on the previous application - RFD/CLE/PHL-CUN - which went in a we
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