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Avianca 011 Tragedy, Remember...  
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9068 times:

Dear,

Like every year at the same period, I come back here, on Airliners.net, to write some words for the memory of the 181 victims of Avianca flight 011, on Sunday, November 27th, 1983.

The Avianca Boeing 747, HK-2910X, crashed only 45 seconds from its landing in Madrid-Barajas airport. This was a terrible accident, with only 11 survivors.

last year, I told here I was preparing a book about that tragedy. I was at the boarding gate of the tragic flight with the passengers, and after years and years, I decided to write a book talking about the accident; why this accident occurred, how it happened, and the terrible consequences of this disaster.

A book is a long and hard work of search, but now with all the documents I keep since 1983, with the help of some friends who were working with me at Paris-CDG airport the evening of the accident, and with the help of my contacts in Colombia, and mainly Daniel in Bucaramanga, Jaime in Florida, Julian In Spain, and all the others, the writing of this book will be finished at the end of the month, for the 28th anniversary of that tragedy.

I want to thank all those people who helped me to realize this book, and I want to have a special thought for Francesca; she lost her husband Sergio in the accident. Francesca lives in Roma, and since 28 years, she ask for many questions about this tragedy, but no one gives any answers, then this book will finally give her, and all the families spread around the world, but mainly in Europe and in Colombia, the requested answers.




Waimanalo
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4394 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8957 times:

It's great that you're documenting this tragedy. Important figures of colombian society were lost on that flight. Let me know when your book comes out, I will gladly buy it.


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8916 times:

yes some famous faces were onboard the 747 this particular evening; Marta Traba, Manuel Scorza, Angel Rama, Jorge Ibargüengoitia...

I will let you know for sure. You can contact me at irene.girardeau@neuf.fr, as for a lot of persons, I keep the addresses then when it will be printed, i will let you know before to send it to you.

Thank you.



Waimanalo
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8767 times:

the problem concerning this tragedy, is that there is nothing, nothing in Mejorada del Campo, on the crash site, to remember. No plaque, no memorial, no date, no names, only nothing. Nobody, I think mainly about the families and friends, nobody can visit the accident site to remember and meditate, and there, I confess that for many people it is a total misunderstanding ...


Waimanalo
User currently offlineACES320 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8603 times:

I remember all the news and the hype of the media when I heard about the accident early in my childhood. That is as far as I can recollect from my memory. Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this, but was this accident a pilot error? Let AV011 be remembered


LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8428 times:

Quoting DID747 (Thread starter):
Like every year at the same period,

I remember your posts from previous years. I think they are a great tribute to the lives lost on AV011. It's incredible that you took the time and effort to write a book to honor the victims.

Last year I mentioned AA191 that crashed at ORD in 1979 still not having a memorial. Well just recently a memorial was finally dedicated to the victims. The daughter of one of the victims, a school teacher, got her class and school to start a grassroots movement to get a memorial. I hope one day AV011 will have it's own memorial too.

Where you a gate agent at CDG for AV011?


User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8364 times:

Thank you very much. I would like to help the families to understand, then if possible, with them, build a memorial on the crash site, but nothing is sure at this time...
I was working in CDG, terminal 1. One of our work was to assist the passengers while delayed flights, with drinks, lunches, diners. So each time, we had a delayed flight, I spent a time with passengers and crews, then after the waiting time, I accompanied them to the gate and I often spent some time with them, until the departure, and mainly when it was an Avianca flight, because I was a fan of Avianca 747 fleet. These birds were coming in CDG 3 times/week and it was always a pleasure to see these very colorful 747.
The Avianca flights were often late, it was the reason, I knew the crews members as well, I met them regularly.



Waimanalo
User currently offlinekl5147 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8114 times:

Quoting DID747 (Thread starter):
The Avianca Boeing 747, HK-2910X

this a/c was the former SAS LN-RNA (cn 21381/311) "Magnus Viking"

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Udo K. Haafke




"The world is just a click away!"
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

yes, LN-RNA, the former SAS 747, was operated by Scanair while summer 1982, then joined the Avianca fleet in August 1982 at the start of a 3 years lease agreement, and it become HK-2910X.






Waimanalo
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7730 times:

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 5):
I hope one day AV011 will have it's own memorial too.

yes, me too, but it seems today, on the crash site, people are not thinking like us!!!



Waimanalo
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7450 times:

It seems today, most of the inabitants of the city of Mejorada del Campo, don't want to remember, then they don't want to see a memorial on the crash site, curious, I don't understand, where is the respect?

we don't have to forget 181 persons lost the life there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Waimanalo
User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1346 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7390 times:

I myself have tried to find information regarding this accident over the years, but today I stumbled on this report from Spain's equivalent of the NTSB (CIAIAC). Report is written in Castellano (Spanish).

A-042/1983 Informe Técnico del Accidente Sufrido por la Aeronave Boeing 747-283B, Matrícula HK-2910, a 12 KM. del Aeropuerto de Madrid-Barajas el día 27 de Noviembre de 1983


User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7336 times:

yes, it is the Spanish equivalent, I have received it years ago, but it is not complete. lot of inforation are not in that investigation and report.


Waimanalo
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

Quoting DID747 (Reply 10):
It seems today, most of the inabitants of the city of Mejorada del Campo, don't want to remember, then they don't want to see a memorial on the crash site, curious, I don't understand, where is the respect?

I'm surprised AV still operates #11, and it's MADBOG? When that happens in the US people blow their lids.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

What exactly happened to AV011?

User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7009 times:

The 747 HK-2910X, flight Avianca 011 crashed only 45 seconds from its landing in Madrid-Barajas after a very important altitude lost. It felt down after 3 violent impacts with the ground close to the city of Mejorada del Campo.

181 persons died, and 11 passengers survived, it was while the night of saturday, november 26th and Sunday, november 27th, 1983.
it was a traumatism for the rescue members, and a tragedy for Avianca and the families, who 28 years after, still don't know exacty what happened, so my book will explain all the reasons of this crash, second by second, since the start of flight 010 from Bogota then the tragic return flight to Madrid, and south America.



Waimanalo
User currently offlineXA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6934 times:

Didier,... welcome to my RUL !!!

All the best to you !!!



No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6886 times:

Hi Horacio, what can I do for you?


Waimanalo
User currently offlineEXCOASA1982 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6823 times:

I was reading the Wikipedia page for Avianca and was surprised to see that this accident isn't listed under the Accidents/Incidencts sections....Weird.

RIP to the victims.

Nick


User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

Please don't forget, Sunday November 27th, will be the 28th anniversary of that tragedy, so 181 candles will shine in our small church in France for all these persons who lost the life during this tragic flight...

send the message round you please...



Waimanalo
User currently offlineDID747 From France, joined Apr 2005, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

Today, sunday, exactly like sunday November, 27th, 1983, I woke up and listened at the radfio while breakfast. But in 1983, the first info was the accident of flight Avianca 011, it was terrible.

28 years, but still in my head as it was yesterday, it is a curious feeling this morning...



Waimanalo
User currently offlineferminbrif From Venezuela, joined Dec 2010, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 6049 times:

Quoting DID747 (Thread starter):
Avianca 011 Tragedy, Remember



I was in MAD by that time and remember that the official report said something about running out of fuel. I think that was true. So sad that many people died just because someone didn´t want to fill the tank in CDG because it was more expensive that MAD.

Somehow, it´s like AVIANCA B- 707-3 FL 52 that crashed in NY on 1990. It run out of fuel.

I think accidents caused by running out of fuel are the most unforgivable type of accidents.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6148 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 6016 times:
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Quoting ferminbrif (Reply 21):
I was in MAD by that time and remember that the official report said something about running out of fuel. I think that was true. So sad that many people died just because someone didn´t want to fill the tank in CDG because it was more expensive that MAD.

The accident was due to CFIT, Pilot error, nothing to do with fuel. The Captain set out to intercept the ILS on an incorrect track, essentially by turning to final before reaching the MAD VOR, which was the prescribed postion for the turn-to-final maneuver, thus flying below the minimum height for more than a minute. The GPWS sounded 23 sec. before impact, the crew taking no action.

The Co-pilot also made a mistake when giving the Minimum Altitude for crossing the Outer Marker by informing the Captain the altitude shoud be 2,382 ft instead of 3,282 ft essentially inverting two digits. After the turn however, they never intercepted any ILS signal and did not check DME from the MAD VOR. Apparently only receiving guidance by the ADF.

They crashed at an elevation of 2,250 ft, nose up attitude and a heading of 285 degrees. IAS was 260 km/hr, landing gear extended, 20 degree flap. Three impacts, after which the aircraft started to disintegrate and finally came to rest inverted. Fire damage was extensive.

The reason for the turn out of position could have been the result of a lack of positional awareness, a mistake by the INS or a mis-interpretation of the approach chart. It was never conclusively determined. There were also some deviation of protocol by ground control, the most important beign not telling the crew that radar service had been terminated.

In short, a long list of events that if one had been interrupted, the crash may not have occured, which is, usually, the case in most accidents.

[Edited 2011-11-27 21:34:16]


MGGS
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5844 times:

Quoting DID747 (Thread starter):
Like every year at the same period, I come back here, on Airliners.net, to write some words for the memory of the 181 victims of Avianca flight 011, on Sunday, November 27th, 1983.

Didier, as well you should.

We have often discussed how some crashes have touched us personally, and clearly this one has touched you. Very nice that you keep the memory alive.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
In short, a long list of events that if one had been interrupted, the crash may not have occurred, which is, usually, the case in most accidents.

You are right, and sadly, this is an excellent example of the Reason Swiss Cheese model, and one that we often study during recurrent training.

One of the major causes of this accident was not respecting the GPWS. I wont say ignore, as it was acknowledged, just not respected. That was common in these early days, as the system was not that reliable, and spurious incorrect warnings were quite common.

Two things have happened as a result of this (and others) accident. Firstly the GPWS and EGPWS systems are now very sophisticated, and incorrect warnings are now very rare. Secondly, it is now SOP that unless you have absolute visual confirmation that the GPWS warning is unwarranted, you effect a full go-around to maximum effort of the aircraft.

We learn something from every accident.

RIP



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineferminbrif From Venezuela, joined Dec 2010, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
The accident was due to CFIT, Pilot error, nothing to do with fuel



It may be true that the accident was due to CFIT, Pilot/Co-Pilot error, etc. That day the fog was extremely heavy in MAD. You couldn´t even see a few Mt's in front of you. However you can not say that the crash had nothing to do with fuel. I remember the crash: there were no fire. The reason was that there were no fuel to burn.


25 ferminbrif : I aplogyze for my coment above. I think I was kinda confused about the incident. Thanks a lot.
26 DID747 : Dear Ferminbrif, sorry but I think you are not talking about the AV 011 accident, but another one, for sure! While the night, at the crash time, the w
27 DID747 : The Spanish investigation do never talk about the Spain air control authority!!! Curious, isn't it?
28 ferminbrif : That´s right DID747. Definitely, I was mistakenly confused. That´s why I apologize for my comments above about this accident. Next time, I´m gonna
29 DID747 : do you remember which accident you were thinking about?
30 Post contains links longhauler : From his mention of fuel, I would guess he was thinking of this accident approaching JFK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52
31 DID747 : Dear Longhauler, I hope you are fine. yes, our friend Ferminbrif through about another Avianca accident, in USA this time, Avianca Boeing 707 flight 0
32 ferminbrif : [quote=DID747,reply=29]do you remember which accident you were thinking about?[/quote That´s right dear forum friends. I was mistakenly thinking in A
33 Post contains links rwessel : From which page is it missing? It's on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._incidents_on_commercial_airliners And has been since at least January
34 type-rated : Didn't Pan Am have an incident similar to this one on some Pacific island? They turned to final before the proper intercept point.
35 747400sp : I see that this was one of the rare 747s, that was powered by JT9D-70A, the full cowl version of the JT9D. I hope you do get this book published.
36 LuisKMIA : I flew on this aircraft from BOG to MIA in 1982, and I remember the engines still had the SAS markings. Tragic indeed. I remember reading a report, in
37 AR385 : Well, I wouldn´t be so hard on them, because: I also have heard the phrase you mention quite a few times when talking about this accident. "Cállate
38 longhauler : "Shut up Gringo" is an urban legend that just wont die. If you read the transcripts of the accident, you will see this was never said. If I recall co
39 Post contains links longhauler : This is the only transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder I could find. I have to assume it has not been altered: http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/D
40 DID747 : totaly true, captain Hernandez did never tell this. Where did you read it? I knew this great man and great pilot, and I can tell you, he was a true pr
41 longhauler : Unfortuantely Didier ... if one did a google search on "Shut up Gringo" one will find many references to this urban legend. Some even declaring it tr
42 DID747 : dear Longhauler, I know that sentence was writen and read everywhere since years. I read it on various, curious, and non serious web pages. But the of
43 DID747 : I would like to know which report talk about the sentence "shut up gringo"...
44 brumle : Hi Didier, I just recently discovered your posts about the Avianca 011 accident on this forum. I want to say thank you for remembering the victims eve
45 DID747 : As i'm in contact with some families of the victims, you can contact me too, then, all together, may be we could do something in Mejorada del Campo. T
46 747WanSui : If the television series Mayday (a/k/a Air Crash Investigation, Air Emergency, Air Disasters) decided to produce a documentary on this accident, do yo
47 DID747 : I think it would be very interesting to see their story, but I have a huge doubt as to the agreement of some of the parties involved, even 28 years af
48 Post contains links IBERIA747 : The company i used to work for is based at Mejorada del Campo's industrial area, so I know quite a few "mejoreños". I asked some of them about the a
49 DID747 : indeed, during the 80s, Spain has been particularly hard hit and has paid a heavy price, the air accidents have increased, causing many casualties, it
50 Post contains links IBERIA747 : Here's another video. This time, it's about the accident being discussed in this thread. Very sad video. Don't know what the person who uploaded it wa
51 DID747 : Dear Alfonso, I know that video very well, that video was very important for me to see and undestand many details. I know it is very hard to watch, it
52 AV757 : Ironically nobody here at AV wants to remember our past whether good or bad. Today December 5 we became 92 years old and not much has been said or don
53 757mde : That's true. I expected more when they turned 90 as well...
54 DID747 : AV757, This is not what think the victims' families, and the escape passengers. So when you talk like this, I can understand what the escape passenger
55 DID747 : Thank you very much to all of you. I hope really, next year a good info will come to continue that discussion, then a memorial on the crash site. best
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