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Embraer Partners With Alcoa For New E-JET  
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8593 times:

Though this news warrants its own thread.

According to Global News Embraer partners with Alcoa to improve planes aimed at Bombardier's CSeries.

From the article Embraer announced

Quote:
Thursday a technology sharing agreement that will use Alcoa's proprietary aluminum alloys, advanced design and manufacturing techniques, and its fastener technologies to support the development of a new fuselage and wings for its current family of aircraft.



Here is a link to the news article: http://www.globalnews.ca/money/embra...r39s+cseries/6442524155/story.html


Embraer is the first planemaker who will take advantage of the new alloy and advanced structural technologies that will reduce weight. According to Alcoa a plane built arround this new technology will have 10% weight savings, and up to 30% lower maintenance cost. Alcoa went as far in june to suggest that their new technology would make a plane 12% more efficient on top of 15% that is offered with newer engines.


Here is a link to the Alcoa press release: http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/news/...eID=20110609005855en&newsYear=2011

The new alloy and technology from Alcoa seems so promising that I am sure other airplane makers will follow.


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2896 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8571 times:
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I know some of the engineers at Embraer and have worked with their entire exec team when they created the Phenom and Lineage to round out their exec jet portfolio. Never did I meet a smarter team nor a nicer client. I can only wish great fortune to one of the jewels of Brazil.


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8371 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 1):
I can only wish great fortune to one of the jewels of Brazil.

They seem to have found a large niche, were they can excel! I also wish them good luck. Their new E-JET have a large R&D than both the neo and MAX. It suggest that their new update will be very advanced, and this news highlights this.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1116 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8143 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 1):
Never did I meet a smarter team nor a nicer client.

Embraer must have an excellent team to develop and produce their terrific aircraft. However, at least one person, the gentleman responsible for SSJ International, does not believe they are "nice". In fact, he argues in the article below Embraer engages in business practices he believes are "even in bad faith".

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...h-embraer-in-latin-america-365038/

Of course, SSJ is a competitor to Embraer, just as BBD is a competitor, and just as MRJ soon will be. Anything a competitor says about his competition should be be viewed as a biased statement.

I firmly believe Embraer made the right choice to enhance the capabilities of its existing E-Jet product with new engines, new aluminum technologies, new systems, etc., rather than launch a completely new program.

Perhaps this new ALCOA aluminum technology will prove to be superior to composite materials, a wonderful development considering the endless problems Boeing has experienced with its 787 program.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8025 times:

Nearly three years ago I compared standard CS100(then known as CS110) to E-195LR in reply #19 in the following thread. CS100 seemed to burn 10% less fuel per seat.

Roughly speaking, a 10% lighter and 15% lower tsfc E195LR would have a substantial efficiency advantage over standard CS100. The revised E195LR should nearly add another 400-500nm to its design range.

A further stretch of E195LR with a Y class capacity of 130 could hit a range of 2,000nm if the promised 15% reduction in tsfc and 10% weight savings is acheived. Such a stretch will very effectively challenge the CS300 if one does not need the longer range of CS300.
C110 Versus E190 Economic Analysis (by LAXDESI Jul 19 2008 in Tech Ops)

Estimated C110 cabin dimensions:
Length 78 feet
Width 10.75 feet
Cabin Area 839 sq. feet
No. of single class seats: 110 at 32" pitch (5-abreast)

Estimated E-195 cabin dimensions:
Length 92.5 feet
Width 9 feet
Cabin Area 833 sq. feet
No. of single class seats: 108 at 32" pitch (4-abreast)

Note below a summary of estimated technical specifications for C110 and E195 LR:
OEW 75,000 63,603
MTOW 120,700 111,972
MZFW 105,800 93,696
MSP 30,800 30,093 (Max. Structural Payload)
Range 2,200 2,300 (Max. Design Range in nm)

Let me present each aircraft under the assumption of a 1,000 nm (JFK-MIA) mission:
C110 cargo 6,050 lbs, trip fuel burned 1,456 gallons.
E195 LR cargo 5,793 lbs, trip fuel burned 1,589 gallons.

C110 burns less fuel for the trip, saving about $500 in fuel cost. It can also carry 2 additional passengers.

In terms of GSM(gallon seat mile) and GTM(gallon ton mile), the C110 is 10% more efficient than the E195LR. I suppose it may be possible for Embraer to reduce this advantage by 4-5% by 2013, which is the EIS date of C110.


User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7973 times:

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 3):
Perhaps this new ALCOA aluminum technology will prove to be superior to composite materials, a wonderful development considering the endless problems Boeing has experienced with its 787 program.

If the material handles more like ordinary aluminum than the carbon fiber 787 I would tend to agree that such a development would bo more of a low risk approach. That being said, I from what I have got to know about the barrel design on the 787, is that there is room for improvement in that manufacturing technology.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
A further stretch of E195LR with a Y class capacity of 130 could hit a range of 2,000nm if the promised 15% reduction in tsfc and 10% weight savings is acheived. Such a stretch will very effectively challenge the CS300 if one does not need the longer range of CS300.

Interesting analysis LAXDESI. It will be interesting to see how much of the plane ends up with the new Alcoa technology. The 10% weight savings probably means the whole plane must use Alcoa's new technology.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7865 times:

LAXDESI..what would be interesting is if Boeing incorporated this (along with a new wing, etc.) to their potential B77X.

It would certainly change a lot of numbers when comparing this to the A35J..  



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7807 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
LAXDESI..what would be interesting is if Boeing incorporated this (along with a new wing, etc.) to their potential B77X.

It would certainly change a lot of numbers when comparing this to the A35J

If Alcoa alloy delivers the promised reduction, it should make the 777X more competitive than what my analysis currently shows. But it would still fall short unless the new Alcoa material is lighter than CFRP.

I think the critical point is the capacity dividing line between 9-abreast and 10-abreast. Cross posting my comments from another thread on A35J/B77X below:

For equivalent technolgy, my analysis suggests that 9-abreast aircraft will be more efficient than 10-abreast below 370-380 seats(3 class marketing configuration). B77X, with the proposed changes, is unlikely to offer the level of efficiency an all new 10-abreast design would provide. B77X is unlikely to beat the revised A350-1000 on GSM(gallon seat mile) or GTM(gallon ton mile).


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7781 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
It would certainly change a lot of numbers

It would also change a lot of thinking about all the benefits of CFRP.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3643 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 7):

LAXDESI, have any of your analyses ever proven out?


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7715 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 7):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
LAXDESI..what would be interesting is if Boeing incorporated this (along with a new wing, etc.) to their potential B77X.

It would certainly change a lot of numbers when comparing this to the A35J

If Alcoa alloy delivers the promised reduction, it should make the 777X more competitive than what my analysis currently shows. But it would still fall short unless the new Alcoa material is lighter than CFRP.

I think the critical point is the capacity dividing line between 9-abreast and 10-abreast. Cross posting my comments from another thread on A35J/B77X below:

A B77X with improved aerodynamics, structure, engines, etc. would probably be a very competitive plane to the A35J, even in the seating numbers you provided. In other words, the B77X with "true" 10-across would competitively match the A35J with 9-across if the sized of the plane were relatively the same.

If I'm not mistaken, according to your modeling, the B77X would have to increase size (stretch) over the A35J to improve its CASM, etc.

I do agree a "clean sheet" design would be optimal.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
It would certainly change a lot of numbers

It would also change a lot of thinking about all the benefits of CFRP.

Possibly, but there might be other inherent benefits with CFRP such as manufacturing costs, speed, efficiency, etc. I really don't know the answer to that however..



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7532 times:

There was an article in one of the local papers here in the Quad Cities a while back about some sort of new aluminium alloy that Alcoa just finished developing and implementing at the Riverdale, Iowa plant just north of here. I wonder if some/any of the production will be done here? I know a fair amount of A380 aluminium work is done here, and a good amount of Boeing aluminium work is done here as well. I always enjoy hearing of increased aerospace work at Alcoa here locally, but good news for Alcoa and the industry as a whole!

User currently offlineamccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7481 times:

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 11):
There was an article in one of the local papers here in the Quad Cities a while back about some sort of new aluminium alloy that Alcoa just finished developing and implementing at the Riverdale, Iowa plant just north of here.

I believe it was the joint venture project with Spirit AeroSystems. It was the development of an aluminum-lithium alloy.

The benefits of further development of aluminum alloys is that aluminum is a recyclable material. Composites for the most part are a non recyclable material. Recycling methods do exist for composites but are not yet viable on the large scale required by the future of the aerospace industry. Another benefit of aluminum development is the continued use of existing infrastructure, the joint venture between Alcoa and Spirit was to demonstrate the manufacturability of the advanced new alloy.

http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/news/...eID=20110619005074en&newsYear=2011



What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6183 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7453 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
Let me present each aircraft under the assumption of a 1,000 nm (JFK-MIA) mission:
C110 cargo 6,050 lbs, trip fuel burned 1,456 gallons.
E195 LR cargo 5,793 lbs, trip fuel burned 1,589 gallons.

C110 burns less fuel for the trip, saving about $500 in fuel cost. It can also carry 2 additional passengers.

In terms of GSM(gallon seat mile) and GTM(gallon ton mile), the C110 is 10% more efficient than the E195LR. I suppose it may be possible for Embraer to reduce this advantage by 4-5% by 2013, which is the EIS date of C110.

You may want to comment on other factors in addition to fuel burn in your analysis. BTW, OEM's typically use 500nm trip length in their marketing material since average flights are well under 1,000 nm. (for example, Southwest's average trip length is 653 sm). This more representative of actual ops for a few reasons. First, it reduces the fuel/trip cost delta. Second, the shorter the flight segment, the more that weight related charges factor in the trip costs and less that fuel does (the inverse the longer the flight). Third, maintenance costs, particularly cycle items, are also a significant factor. Last, but not least, is purchase cost.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6867 times:

Quoting amccann (Reply 12):

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5462 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

Does anyone have any data about how the al-li BBD is using on the CSeries compares with this new Alcoa alloy?


What the...?
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6183 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6372 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
Does anyone have any data about how the al-li BBD is using on the CSeries compares with this new Alcoa alloy?

On page 9 of this Alcoa briefing they state that current state of the art is 5%-10% lighter structures from 787 design freeze and improved corrosion resistance and +2015 EIS it will be 10%-20% lighter and extended inspection/MRO...

http://www.slideshare.net/alcoa/alcoa-aerospace-briefing

Interesting are the claims vs CFRP on pages 18 & 19.

Here are a couple of short marketing videos from Paris...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeUYLxNTqI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzUJXFII7o



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4469 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6353 times:

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 3):
Perhaps this new ALCOA aluminum technology will prove to be superior to composite materials, a wonderful development considering the endless problems Boeing has experienced with its 787 program.

Wow, imagine if that were true! Then the 787 would surely be a unique "oddity" and perhaps a footnote in aviation history.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6183 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6318 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 17):
Wow, imagine if that were true!

Alcoa claims that it is superior on pages 18 & 19...

http://www.slideshare.net/alcoa/alcoa-aerospace-briefing



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5462 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6246 times:

One of the beauties of new aluminum alloys is that weight savings and other benefits, (increased corrosion resistance for one), can possibly be introduced without changing the construction methods currently in use. Forms, jigs and drilling machines may be able to be kept as is, significantly reducing upgrade cost and time.

Perhaps the CSeries can incrementally introduce even lighter and newer alloys as they come available to allow for pip's down the road.

Other planes like the 330 and 777 may also gain some competitiveness by upgrading to the new alloys.

Everything old is new again...



What the...?
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5640 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 16):
Interesting are the claims vs CFRP on pages 18 & 19.

Here are a couple of short marketing videos from Paris...

Thanks for sharing some interesting information. It will be interesting to see how much weight savings Embraer will get out of their E-JET.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 19):
Other planes like the 330 and 777 may also gain some competitiveness by upgrading to the new alloys.

Is this a possible scenario? That Airbus and Boeing does incremental changes from current material to this new one? Embraer seems to change much in one go. But Airbus and Boeing seems like they prefer the incremental upgrade to keep their high production rate.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
Does anyone have any data about how the al-li BBD is using on the CSeries compares with this new Alcoa alloy?
http://www.riotintoalcan.com/ENG/media/media_releases_1986.asp

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-long-term-agreement-98806754.html
http://www.constellium.com/business-...olutions/global-ati/brands/airware

[Edited 2011-11-19 05:54:09]

User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

In 2007, Bombardier and Alcoa worked together for the developpement of new al-li alloys (2099 & 2199) for the CSeries but Bombardier finally choose Constellium Airware product .

http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/innov...papers_patents/pdf/LMT2007_110.pdf


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5462 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 21):

Good info...thanks.

Quoting queb (Reply 22):

I believe Alcoa bought out Alcan so they would at least have a stake in Airware.



What the...?
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5341 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 23):
I believe Alcoa bought out Alcan so they would at least have a stake in Airware.

No, Alcan is now Rio Tinto Alcan since 2007, a division of Rio Tinto. Nothing to do with Alcoa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcan


25 2175301 : While the AL-Li alloy will allow improvements in new metal airlines - composite technology for large aircraft fuselages is in its first generation wi
26 JoeCanuck : You are correct...it would be interesting to have a side by side comparison of the Alcan and Alcoa alloys. They both seem to have similar claims.
27 VC10er : Well I must admit the "toughest" crowd at EMB was the sales force. As they would need to be. I delt with R&D, marketing and communications servic
28 Post contains images ferpe : Guys, please read the fine print: - ...up to XX% lighter... the problem is the "up to" - ...YY% lighter when optimally designed...with new methods..
29 LAXDESI : Valid points. Analysis at 500nm would make the numbers slightly less favorable to CS100 on operational metric. Adding weight based airport charges wi
30 sf260 : I don't get why so many people compare a stretched E195 130-seater with the CS300. Imo, the CS100, which seats 125 at 30," will be the closest compet
31 Post contains links planemaker : It is a bit more complex... Rio Tinto only has has a 39% stake in Constellium with Apollo owing the majority 51% and FSI owning 10% (French Caisse de
32 JoeCanuck : Airware is also in use on the A380.
33 planemaker : Yes, and on the A350 as well. In military and space applications it is used on the F16 and on the Falcon X.
34 MoltenRock : The E195 as is now seats 122 in a high occupancy 30" pitch. If they stretch the plane by 3 frames which seems in the ballpark they are looking at for
35 sf260 : I have expressed me wrong there. Al-Li has been used in since the 1950's, so you will find it in many airliners other than CSeries, A380, A350,... I
36 queb : To be precise : CS100 : - 125 seats with a 30" pitch - 110 seats with a 32" pitch - 100 seats with a 36/32" pitch (2 class 16/84) CS300 : - 145 seats
37 LAXDESI : Seat Guru shows Lufthansa E195 with 116 physical seats at 32" pitch, with eight of these blocked off to create business class in the first four rows.
38 Post contains links and images queb : I don't have the same numbers http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Lufthansa/Lufthansa_Embraer_195.php And for me, a seat in business class is supposed t
39 PPVRA : My guess is that CFRP will develop faster than metals. So I am still sticking with CFRP in the long run.And remember: Alcoa is comparing state of the
40 Post contains images oykie : IMO this is what Airbus and Boeing should do with their respective planes. Invest just a little bit more than a minimum upgrade like Embraer here is
41 planemaker : Actually it was only $1 billion. Please list the "many" airliners that are using Al-Li alloys.
42 MoltenRock : And an equal number of us refuse to fly such sardine cans, and thus fly SQ, Asiana, QR, and Cathay, and pay the premium it costs to fly with a decent
43 328JET : The next ERJ195s for the Lufthansa Group will have 120 seats - one row more than today because of the use of slimmer and lighter seats.
44 Burkhard : I remember Airbus signed a contract woth billions with Alcoa about exactly these materials. So it looks only BBD and B still are not aboard...
45 planemaker : EMB will not go up against the "aero titans". Having let the opportunity pass while both "aero titans" are only doing minimum upgrades, EMB is certai
46 MoltenRock : Adding the military KC390 and drone programs most certainly diversifies their risk, as it adds a 3 pillar of support. Rather than just offering comme
47 LAXDESI : When they do, I hope Embraer opts to do a light 6-abreast NB family(150-200 seats) with a range of no more than 2,500nm. IMO, such an aircraft family
48 JoeCanuck : BBD is using the competitive product from Rio Tinto/Alcan, which Airbus is also using on some of their products.
49 Viscount724 : Not for long at AC. I believe they are in process of adding one more row of seats to their E-190s (a few aircraft already completed) which will reduc
50 planemaker : FYI, they've had the "3rd pillar of support" for quite some time. A & B's new NBs "offerings" won't appear for another 15 years so it is absolute
51 Post contains links MoltenRock : Adding 2 entire new programs, (one of which is the largest offering Embraer has ever had) along with a number of subset airframe family planes / dron
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