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AMR To Delay Eagle Spinoff  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9451 times:

Well one of the outcomes of this weeks AMR BoD meeting seems to be the decision to delay divestiture of Eagle which was planned for by the end of the year.

AMR now states it hold off on the divestiture until early next year after an agreement has been concluded with the pilot group. Back in October a T/A was reached with Eagle's ALPA unit, however the agreement has yet to be formalized and put out for a vote by members.

Story:
AMR to delay Eagle spinoff until deal is reached with pilots
http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/11...-to-delay-eagle-spinoff-until.html


I suspect AMR has some concerns about the T/A passing, which would cloud the future of a stand-alone Eagle entity and leave it with a uncompetitive high cost base.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9110 times:

Problem with Eagle as a stand-alone is that they probably have the highest cost base among their regional peers. Also lots of 40-50 seaters.

User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8695 times:

Not to be too negative, but why bother if they are going to file anyway? The bankruptcy court can deal with this and AA can put flights out to bid with other regional carriers and if Eagle can compete great. If not, then another carrier does the work.

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8420 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 2):

Not to be too negative, but why bother if they are going to file anyway?

Because if you file now, you can put Eagle thru it as well. Eagle can be the next Comair, or they can go thru CH11 and come out as a competitive regional carrier.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8387 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
Because if you file now, you can put Eagle thru it as well. Eagle can be the next Comair, or they can go thru CH11 and come out as a competitive regional carrier.

That was my thought as well.

There is too much going on with AA right now to think Chapter 11 is any longer far fetched. I think keeping Eagle attached is part of a plan to go through Chapter 11.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8330 times:

I don't know.

Seems to me AMR prefer to get consensual deals if possible, and its almost there with the Eagle group.

It would be rather nasty in BK court fighting 2 sets of pilots, 2 sets of F/A's, 2 sets of mechanics, 2 sets of airport folks if you don't have to.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8274 times:

I'm curious to see how this plays out. Eagle may have higher costs but we're still profitable and taking steps to reduce costs. We're pretty far along on our TA and it's being put into contractual language right now. From what I've read, it looks like a decent contract with some nice enhancements (profit sharing, more job security). I know nothing in this industry is certain or secure, but this contract seems to at least address some of those issues. I'll be keeping my eyes open for more info on JetNet Monday.

User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7593 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):

My theory is that the A320 are earmarked for Eagle.... I f you read between the lines they want UNLIMITED
domestic codeshare.... And many think this is where B6 plays their part. Instead of loosing the seamless
Eagle product connection, they have ordered the A320 that AA mainline pilots refuse to fly.

Unless the New mainline agreements show payscales for the A320 .... my theory is AMR wants these in the
Eagle certificate.


User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2177 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7174 times:

The problem may be shortage of buyers....pending Chapt 11...if I was going to buy into Eagle off AMR why not wait until after filing and get it at a reduced cost both labor and overall?

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 2):
but why bother if they are going to file anyway?

Then Eagle would have no value.

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 8):
...if I was going to buy into Eagle off AMR why not wait until after filing and get it at a reduced cost both labor and overall?

After a Chapter 11 of AMR including Eagle - the smaller airline may not exist.

If Eagle is the high cost operation most folks on this forum think - the BK court could decide to liquidate that part of the company. Then AMR gets nothing for Eagle, and has to suddenly start finding a regional carrier. If Eagle were liquidated, it would tighten up the market for regional carriers, raising costs for any new ones added to support AA.

If Eagle is separated before BK, then AA has an intact regional network. The BK court could impose lower fees upon the Eagle contract - but the biggest advantage for AA is to have Eagle as a separate carrier and have a BK court break the scope clause with the mainline pilots.

Completing the sale of Eagle would provide cash needed for going through BK with a plan to keep the same management and most of the board of directors.

We've seen that before - Delta's sale of Atlantic Southeast just before they declared BK.

Most folks seem to think that the Delta BK worked well - so there is no reason to be surprised if AA follows the same tactics.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5562 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5779 times:

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 8):
The problem may be shortage of buyers....

That's why they're considering a spin-off. You don't need a buyer - just stand Eagle on its own and issue Eagle shares to your current stockholders, splitting the two companies. Based on the current AMR stock price, however, nobody but bottom-fishing speculators wants to own either company.

The company probably thinks the delay gives them greater leverage (or at least more options) in both labor negotiations and a possible Chap 11.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5579 times:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 7):
My theory is that the A320 are earmarked for Eagle.... I f you read between the lines they want UNLIMITED
domestic codeshare.... And many think this is where B6 plays their part. Instead of loosing the seamless
Eagle product connection, they have ordered the A320 that AA mainline pilots refuse to fly.

Unless the New mainline agreements show payscales for the A320 .... my theory is AMR wants these in the
Eagle certificate.

A couple of questions:

1) Is it true that AMR mainline pilots refuse to fly the A320?

2) What is the connection being made in the xdlx quote above between JetBlue and Eagle?


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2258 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 11):
Is it true that AMR mainline pilots refuse to fly the A320?

No. They refuse to fly anything without a negotiated pay scale. Negotiate a pay scale and they don't care who builds it.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 12):
They refuse to fly anything without a negotiated pay scale. Negotiate a pay scale and they don't care who builds it.

So if I understand the original comment re: AMR wanting Eagle to fly the A320s, the original point is that since there currently is no agreement for AMR mainline to fly the A320s, therefore it is possible Eagle will fly them? If I have that correct, that would seem to be a HUGE issue (and precedent).


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5315 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
the original point is that since there currently is no agreement for AMR mainline to fly the A320s, therefore it is possible Eagle will fly them?

It is no different than introduction of a new aircraft type into any airline.

Before the first A380 went to Singapore - the pilots and company had to agree on a pay scale for that frame.

The A320 is new to AA and should be paid are about the same rate as the B738 in my opinion. It is not that AA and the pilots disagree - they both simply have much more important things on their contract negotiations right now than an aircraft which isn't due for a few years. True AA might be wanting them to fly the A320 for much lower pay rates than the B738.

Is the A320 that much of a 'lower' class aircraft than the B738? I don't think so.

There is no way Eagle would fly AA A320 aircraft. For one thing - the Eagle pilots don't have an A320 pay scale in their contract either, and it would certainly be a big bump in pay compared to the CRJ7 which is their top aircraft currently.

For another - adding a 150-180 seat class aircraft to regional carriers has never been done. It would change Eagle from a feeder for AA to a competitor of AA.


User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5213 times:

APA would go postal over Eagle flying an E170/190 let alone an A320. Absolutely no freakin way that will happen. The actual proposal linked here:

http://aanegotiations.com/documents/...iveProposal_ExecutiveSummaries.pdf

talks about how AA wants more domestic feed at JFK, it is assumed that feed would be from B6 considering they are a very large domestic carrier in JFK that could provide feed tomorrow if APA would go with a codeshare.



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User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4991 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 14):
For another - adding a 150-180 seat class aircraft to regional carriers has never been done. It would change Eagle from a feeder for AA to a competitor of AA.
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 15):
APA would go postal over Eagle flying an E170/190 let alone an A320. Absolutely no freakin way that will happen

Right which is why this:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 7):
Unless the New mainline agreements show payscales for the A320 .... my theory is AMR wants these in the
Eagle certificate.

makes no sense to me.


User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4976 times:

If anyone thinks Eagle will be flying anything bigger than the CR7, keep dreaming. BK courts can impose contracts, but the unions can decide to strike, or knowing APA and the FA union, they will just clusterfy things so badly that the company would never exit bankruptcy as a viable business.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
I suspect AMR has some concerns about the T/A passing, which would cloud the future of a stand-alone Eagle entity and leave it with a uncompetitive high cost base.
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 2):

Not to be too negative, but why bother if they are going to file anyway? The bankruptcy court can deal with this and AA can put flights out to bid with other regional carriers and if Eagle can compete great. If not, then another carrier does the work.

I have to agree. If they are going to file they can toss the Eagle contracts and unwanted Eagle airplanes and make it a profitable entity again to either sell or retain.


User currently offlinejamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4711 times:

The company just put out a press release announcing that they have selected the A319 and A321 variants from their large Airbus order...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Americ...ses-prnews-3879295634.html?x=0&l=1



United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

And Nero continues to fiddle while the town burns down around him.

User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):

Rome is burning!......... run for the exits!


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13446 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4554 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
If Eagle is the high cost operation most folks on this forum think - the BK court could decide to liquidate that part of the company.

AA needs *some* regional feed. AA needs BK to cut Eagle's costs. This won't be fun for anyone at AA.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Given the massive overhaul of the American bankruptcy court / proceedings, I think many here fail to understand that today's BK is much different than those done under the old laws (Ie... Delta, NWA). No major legacy has filed since the new laws went into effect, and quite frankly, the next one who does may not emerge. Running a prepackaged BK thru the system today, isn't like what it was just a few years ago.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 19):
The company just put out a press release announcing that they have selected the A319 and A321 variants from their large Airbus order...

That's surprising because I'm hearing that the economics for the A319 are deteriorating.


25 Post contains images MoltenRock : Huh? Compared to what?
26 flyby519 : Economics of the 319? Or labor economics that AMR thought they would get APA to agree to for the 319?
27 LAXintl : Well following the BK filing, per Tom Horton the Eagle divestiture will the back seat as AA works out its larger strategic plans. AE CEO Dan Garton to
28 Squid : I wonder if there is any chance of getting the pilots at AA to agree to allow AE to fly planes up to 90-100 seats? If the pilots would agree to it, it
29 Acey559 : We already have a flow-through agreement in place. I don't know if APA would let us fly anything that big, but now would be the time to try, I suppos
30 EmSeeEye : "We are aggressively moving forward with our plans to have the youngest, most fuel-efficient fleet in the U.S. in the next five years," said Tom Hort
31 MasseyBrown : I could see AMR taking a more radical approach and, if they can get a decent deal from APA, merge Eagle into mainline. Alternatively, if they can't ge
32 norcal : Over APA's dead body. This would easily mean a thousand + furloughs for mainline pilots. United parked their entire 737 fleet and replaced it with CR
33 PlaneAdmirer : APA gave up raises and keeping their pensions largely intact because they hated Arpey and management and now they hire Lazard to represent them. Mayb
34 norcal : Even if APA had accepted the last offer from AMR it wouldn't have prevented a bankruptcy. AMR would simply have used that concessionary agreement as
35 jfklganyc : "There already is a flow through agreement. Anyone on the Eagle seniority list prior to 10/12/11 (+/- a few days) has a guaranteed job at mainline." T
36 xdlx : The reasoning I do not understand is: Eagle allready flies 40% of the domestic traffic. If they could replace 350, E140/45 with 150-175 CR9 or E190.
37 flyby519 : The issue is the E190 would take a lot of current MD80 routes, and that means a reduction for mainline labor group.
38 xdlx : The E190 is not on the property and the MD80 attrition has already started. Again no relation one to the other.... the MD80 (mainline is going out th
39 flyby519 : I think that would be great, but if you notice the size of equipment that UPS operates (757/767/747/MD11/A300) they are all relatively equal in terms
40 xdlx : Not if they replace 100 E145. The growth on this industry in the last 10 years is in the Regional level as the 30seat turboprop was replaced by RJ's.
41 flyby519 : True, that is something that I could have seen under APA/mgmt negotiations pre-BK, but I dont know if that is realistic under the current BK process
42 Post contains links LAXintl : Changes are afoot. The December 5th Eagle pilot class was cancelled with the 20-students places on furlough. Additionally AMR notified the Texas Workf
43 Post contains links LAXintl : Another axe falls. Rumored ATRs cuts come true. 21 ATR-72s in total parked and DFW hub ATR flying pulled by January 31st. Leaves 18 ATRs for MIA/SJU o
44 LAXdude1023 : It should be noted that the only DFW routes cut are Augusta, GA and Fayetteville, NC. All the ATR routes here will be served with ERJ's.
45 Post contains images hiflyer : "All the ATR routes here will be served with ERJ's." Hmmm...common belief is turboprops more efficient than smallish rj's...so grounding the props for
46 flyby519 : I bet the ERJs will only be on the routes until they find a turboprop replacement for Eagle or another carrier to fly.
47 Coronado : At least for towns with 3-4 hours driving time to DFW, why even try and find a turboprop replacement or put small jets in? Those towns in in Texas are
48 LAXdude1023 : A lot of those towns preform very well for Eagle and they would be foolish to let them go. GRK is probably the crown Jewel of the Turbo prop Texas ci
49 crAAzy : Not to mention they have a very large competing hub in houston that would be happy to upgauge those markets. Not quite so captive as other airlines (
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