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Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?  
User currently online747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3501 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 13170 times:

Back in the early 2000s, when it was time for Hawaiian Air to replace their aging fleet of DC10s, they order 767 300s for this job. Ten years later, HA plans to replace their almost new 767 300s with A332s. A332s are pretty much the same size as DC10s, so I would think that it would have been the better choice in the early 2000s, as a DC10 replacement. Also A332s have better range than a 767s and much better cargo capacity. So do you think HA made a mistake in ordering 767 300s, to replace their DC10s, instead of A332s in the early 2000?




PS: Please forgive me if I wrong, but I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 13139 times:

I believe HA got some 763s from DL...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 13086 times:

I don't think they were in a financial position to order the A332 at the time. The 767's were relatively cheap, around the same capacity as their DC10's, hell of a lot more efficient...it just made sense for them and they did their job well I'd say as HA is now very profitable. I think what's making them look at the A332 now is that they're going beyond just the West Coast-Hawaii market with all their new, longer stage Asian routes and recently announced JFK route.

User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6446 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 13011 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 2):
I don't think they were in a financial position to order the A332 at the time. The 767's were relatively cheap, around the same capacity as their DC10's, hell of a lot more efficient...it just made sense for them and they did their job well I'd say as HA is now very profitable. I think what's making them look at the A332 now is that they're going beyond just the West Coast-Hawaii market with all their new, longer stage Asian routes and recently announced JFK route.

I personally think the 764ER would have been the ideal choice for HA to replace their DC-10s at the time. The 764ER has about the same passenger capacity, has slighty more cargo capacity, and has a little more range than the DC-10. After all, Boeing specifically designed the 764ER to meet the L-1011 and DC-10 replacement needs of DL and CO, respectively.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinealoha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2356 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12708 times:

Hmmm.....the 10 years since they started flying the 767s have been the most profitable & successful 10 years in HA's history.

The 767 is smaller than the DC10, but HA's strategy at the time was to start nonstop flights to smaller west coast cities without HNL service (SMF, SJC, SAN, as well as OGG-SEA & PDX)....all routes for which the A332 is likely too big & routes that will continue to see 767 service from HA for years to come.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Please forgive me if I wrong, but I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

SOME of the 767s were delivered new to HA, others are much older.

3 (580, 581 & 582) were ordered by Ansett but picked up by HA after they went bust. They were delivered new to HA on lease and purchased outright by HA recently.
4 (583, 584, 585, 586) were leased from LTU and are older.
7 (587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592 & 593) were leased from Boeing & delivered new to HA. These are the most likely to leave the fleet soon as Boeing is placing them with carriers like AC.
4 (594, 596, 597 & 598) were purchased from DL in 2006 and are older.

Atleast 7 of the 767s are owned by HA and will not be leaving the fleet for a while.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12254 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Ten years later, HA plans to replace their almost new 767 300s with A332s.

If they're 10 years old, they're not "almost new", that's about 50% of the design life.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
So do you think HA made a mistake in ordering 767 300s, to replace their DC10s, instead of A332s in the early 2000?

No. In addition to the issues already covered, Airbus is a long way from Hawaii and, at that time, has essentially zero presence on the islands. Boeing and Douglas, on the other hand, were sitting right there at two of HA's biggest locations on the mainland. Spares support alone probably covered it.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Also A332s have better range than a 767s and much better cargo capacity.

But they didn't need more range at the time. More cargo would have been useful if they'd been able to fill it but there's no particular guarantee that would have been the case.

Tom.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12215 times:
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Another thing to consider is that at the time, Hawaii was a two airline dominion. Don´t forget Aloha. So in that market environment, the A332 was too big.


MGGS
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12145 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Ten years later, HA plans to replace their almost new 767 300s with A332s. A332s are pretty much the same size as DC10s, so I would think that it would have been the better choice in the early 2000s, as a DC10 replacement. Also A332s have better range than a 767s and much better cargo capacity. So do you think HA made a mistake in ordering 767 300s, to replace their DC10s, instead of A332s in the early 2000?

Considering Hawaiian's position back then and the presence of Aloha, the 767 was probably the best way for them to go. Had Aloha been gone when the replacement was done, they might have looked at 767-400s, A330s, or 777s.

And remember that the A330s were for expansion as much as they were to replace 767s, at least up until the recent order for five more. Now that may have changed.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1124 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11605 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I believe HA got some 763s from DL...

HA got some non ER's from DL

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Please forgive me if I wrong, but I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

Some were new and some leased.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I personally think the 764ER would have been the ideal choice for HA to replace their DC-10s at the time.

Doesn't work from OGG where HA has or will have nonstops to more mainland cities (Short runway). Much more could be done from OGG(including flights to Japan) if the Locals would extend the runway which had previously been approved over 10 years ago.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11021 times:

The 767-400ER does come to mind, considering that it was designed for DL/CO to replace the L10/DC10. Of course, it should be considered just what DL/CO used those aircraft for.. in which the 764 quickly loses favor.

I do love the 767-400ER though, my favorite. 2-3-2, and raked winglets all the way!   

Quoting CV880 (Reply 8):
Doesn't work from OGG where HA has or will have nonstops to more mainland cities (Short runway). Much more could be done from OGG(including flights to Japan) if the Locals would extend the runway which had previously been approved over 10 years ago.

In that case the 757 would have been nice.    I kid, of course. Wouldn't having a mixed fleet of 767-400's and 767-300's (if they can land at OGG, that is) been okay/ideal? I'd imagine it'd be cheaper to have two aircraft of the same family, than two aircraft from two different manufacturers!



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2167 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8658 times:

I agree the 763 did and still does a great job for them....great aircraft to grow a market for the bigger a330. Freight is where the a330 shines...standard size (ld3) ulds loaded side by side instead of one per row....full size pallets loaded width wise instead of length wise...makes the cargo pit far more a money maker than the narrower 767 family....especially for interchange from other carriers. One of the original intents of the 787 was to be a 767 replacement...first thing was that it would be standard widebody width for freight...not the narrower 767....no aircraft after the 767 has used that narrower barrel...for for a reason....I agree with missing the y 2-3-2 configs as a customer.....

User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 4):
7 (587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592 & 593) were leased from Boeing & delivered new to HA. These are the most likely to leave the fleet soon as Boeing is placing them with carriers like AC.

591 and 593 have already left the fleet; both are now with Air Canada.

HNL RareBirds on 591 leaving
HNL RareBirds on 593 leaving

They're now registered C-GHPE (591) and C-GHPN (593).


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

It's an interesting discussion, but the only actual argument that's been made has been

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 2):
I don't think they were in a financial position to order the A332 at the time. The 767's were relatively cheap, around the same capacity as their DC10's, hell of a lot more efficient...it just made sense for them and they did their job well I'd say as HA is now very profitable.

I have no insight to the fleet planning of HA, obviously, and therefore can only speculate as to the reasons why the 763s were preferred over A332s back then. However, saying that ''the 763 can do almost the same, just not as good, but still sufficient'' is not a real selling point.

So I too would assume it had something to do with funding, availability and a Boeing preference due to more cockpit commonalities. Maybe they were also lacking the appropriate mx facilities and found the 767s to be the cheaper/easier alternative at the same.

Their choice to go A332 today may also have had different influences. A330s have become more efficient over the past 11 years and the demand for them is quite high. Next to having lower operating costs, providing a capacity increase and opening up new markets, the 763s will soon become unsellable while the second hand market for the A330s has several years left to it. I would assume the annual depreciation of a new A332 vs an old B763 to be lower over the coming years (until the A350s arrive), and the efficiency edge large enough to offset the associated costs (capital, fleet introduction, training etc.)

Why they chose A350s over B787s is a much more interesting question though..



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7266 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 9):
The 767-400ER does come to mind, considering that it was designed for DL/CO to replace the L10/DC10. Of course, it should be considered just what DL/CO used those aircraft for.. in which the 764 quickly loses favor.

It would be interesting to compare how a combination of 757s and 767-400ERs could have done for Hawaiian, but they are a fairly small airline and the lack of commonality probably made the 767-300ER a better overall package. Same with a combination of 737NGs and 767s.

Quoting something (Reply 12):
So I too would assume it had something to do with funding, availability and a Boeing preference due to more cockpit commonalities.

Cockpit commonalities with what? 767s are the first real Boeings Hawaiian ever had.

Quoting something (Reply 12):
the 763s will soon become unsellable while the second hand market for the A330s has several years left to it.

I think most of the current and future fleet is leased.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6961 times:

I agree with others as it was the bets fit for the time and allowed them to expand.

I know that they just added 5 more 330's, but what is the replacement scheduled for the 767's? The ones that they own, will they be keeping them past their next D checks and using them on the west cost destinations?

Also, as cargo has been discussed heavenly, what is the most profitable cargo destination? I would assume (my theory only) as it would be SFO and LAX as they see the 330 now.


User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6858 times:

Quoting something (Reply 12):
Why they chose A350s over B787s is a much more interesting question though..

IIRC, it's because HA's RFP in 2007 asked for two separate aircraft to fulfill medium and long-term fleet needs. Boeing responded by offering more 767s in the medium-term and 787s in the long-term, while Airbus offered the A330 in the medium-term and the A350 in the long-term. HA found that the 787 and the A350 were substantially similar as far as their needs were concerned, but liked the greater capabilities offered by the A330, so they went with Airbus' proposal.


User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 15):
IIRC, it's because HA's RFP in 2007 asked for two separate aircraft to fulfill medium and long-term fleet needs. Boeing responded by offering more 767s in the medium-term and 787s in the long-term, while Airbus offered the A330 in the medium-term and the A350 in the long-term. HA found that the 787 and the A350 were substantially similar as far as their needs were concerned, but liked the greater capabilities offered by the A330, so they went with Airbus' proposal.

Would this be why Boeing is taking back the leased 767's to give to AC?


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24879 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6651 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

Boeing doesn't show any 763s ordered directly by HA. I think they were a mix of new aircraft obtained from leasing companies and used aircraft obtained from DL and German charter carrier LTU (now part of Air Berlin). One fleet list shows 4 ex-DL and 5 ex-LTU. I'm sure those aircraft were much cheaper than new A330s and there were few if any used A330s available when HA acquired their 763s.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I personally think the 764ER would have been the ideal choice for HA to replace their DC-10s at the time. The 764ER has about the same passenger capacity, has slighty more cargo capacity, and has a little more range than the DC-10. After all, Boeing specifically designed the 764ER to meet the L-1011 and DC-10 replacement needs of DL and CO, respectively.

How did we all know that this comment would be coming.  


User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 16):
Would this be why Boeing is taking back the leased 767's to give to AC?

No, it's more likely that Boeing didn't want to renew the leases so they could have the 767s available to compensate for 787 delays.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9508 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Boeing doesn't show any 763s ordered directly by HA. I think they were a mix of new aircraft obtained from leasing companies and used aircraft obtained from DL and German charter carrier LTU (now part of Air Berlin). One fleet list shows 4 ex-DL and 5 ex-LTU. I'm sure those aircraft were much cheaper than new A330s and there were few if any used A330s available when HA acquired their 763s.

Hawaiian had some creative ways for getting the 767 fleet which likely led to some significantly lower acquisition costs. The new build 767s were leased from Ansett Worldwide and Boeing Capital Corp. The leasing and getting them used likely favored the 767 as deals like that were possible since the 767 fleet was quite large in the early 2000s, especially with airlines shrinking in service after the Asian Financial Crisis and Dot.com bust. The A330-200 at that time was just entering service and airlines had not really started utilizing the plane heavily.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1555 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

I've flown HA SAN-HNL and SAN-OGG on several occasions. The SAN-HNL flights have always been full - a few seats empty at the rear. Th OGG flights have always had a few empty rows in the rear, which leads me to believe that the 767 is sized right for the San Diego market. Anything larger might be too much plane for them -- certainly for the OGG route.

I remember seeing the instructions in German in one of planes!


User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1346 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4421 times:

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 4):
Hmmm.....the 10 years since they started flying the 767s have been the most profitable & successful 10 years in HA's history.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Another thing to consider is that at the time, Hawaii was a two airline dominion. Don´t forget Aloha. So in that market environment, the A332 was too big.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Considering Hawaiian's position back then and the presence of Aloha, the 767 was probably the best way for them to go.

Agreed. HA is in a much better financial shape now and it even helps their position moreso when DL/AA/CO/UA have cut capacity to Hawaii in the past decade. The 763 was certainly not a mistake.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 18):
How did we all know that this comment would be coming.

No kidding...how did we know?  

If they wanted the 764 they would have bought it.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 23):

The big issue with the 764 would be that it would likely have struggled mightily flying out of OGG necessitating a second type and the 763 doesn't have enough commonality to make it worthwhile for a small airline.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 SEA : The current 332X is a lot more efficient a machine than the 332 that was on offer when HA were replacing their DC-10s. From a performance standpoint,
26 woodsboy : At the time of the fleet transition away from the DC-10 and towards the 763 HA was in no financial position to order up to around 20 new 764s which wo
27 Post contains images HNLPointShoot : That's how you know you're on an ex-LTU plane. Heck, 10 years ago, no one would've thought that AQ would basically cease to exist (unless they merged
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