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Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2973 posts, RR: 13
Posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10399 times:
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Isn't it now possible to connect "any" 2 points on the globe non-stop with the right aircraft (and by the way what ac has the range?)

But all these new flights to Brazil seem to all go through Madrid, right? Is there a non-stop I'm unaware of? Is it a matter of not filling one ac without an extra stop to help fill it? I know VARIG didn't seem to make money to Tokyo (I have no facts to back that up) even with a stop in LA. But that was then. Why no ANA or TAM to Tokyo or Cathay to GRU with a GIG tag? In fact out of curiosity how do GIG bound pax get from GRU to GIG?

And can someone buy a ticket in Madrid on SQ (or others) to GRU?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoksman From Brazil, joined Apr 2011, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10410 times:

I usually fly TK with a very convenient connection at IST. And I guess only 77L and A345 would have the legs to go to Asia non stop from GRU.

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10370 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Isn't it now possible to connect "any" 2 points on the globe non-stop with the right aircraft (and by the way what ac has the range?)

No, not with a profitable load. That's why nobody flies Europe-Australia non-stop either.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Is there a non-stop I'm unaware of?

There is not.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
In fact out of curiosity how do GIG bound pax get from GRU to GIG?

A connection via codeshare, interline, or separate ticket.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
And can someone buy a ticket in Madrid on SQ (or others) to GRU?

Yes, the routes to GRU have fifth freedom rights and would almost certainly not be flown without them. In reality, the airline usually makes more profit out of filling the same seat twice at SIN-BCN and BCN-GRU O&D fares than it would for a through SIN-GRU fare. If they couldn't get BCN-GRU passengers, that sector wouldn't be viable.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

Wouldn't a non-stop to GRU, operate more easily from SIN than NRT? I'm not really sure....


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

You are really stretching the range of the aircraft and profitable load factors - though SIN is about a 1,240 nm shorter flight than from NRT.

SIN-GRU - 8,644 nm
NRT-GRU - 9,984 nm

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=rjaa-sb...ss-kewr&MS=wls&DU=nm&SG=454&SU=kts

Current longest world commercial flights - EWR-SIN - 8,285 nm

Note the extreme range distorts the route on any flat map projection, even a great circle projection.

The EWR-SIN flight is only profitable because it is a specially configured B777 with a smaller passenger load to allow the distance. Also - the aircraft is a premium aircraft for business customers. There are no economy class tickets sold - only business class.

Could SIN-GRU fill the seats with business class in both directions every day?

[Edited 2011-11-20 18:15:12]

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10323 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
Wouldn't a non-stop to GRU, operate more easily from SIN than NRT? I'm not really sure....

Yes. NRT-GRU is actually about 800nm longer than LHR-SYD, which probably also has larger demand and is not flown. That said, even SIN-GRU would be the new longest flight in the world by 359nm at 8,644nm.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10312 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
The EWR-SIN flight is only profitable because it is a specially configured B777 with a smaller passenger load to allow the distance. Also - the aircraft is a premium aircraft for business customers.

EWR-SIN is flown with an A340-500, not a B777. Also note that the aircraft originally flew the route with greater seating capacity and the route was terminated (along within SIN-LAX) due to an inability to operate profitably. SQ actually tried to move the aircraft, but finding no takers, they instead reconfigured the birds to the current premium layout and reinstated the routes.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10293 times:

There are no real 'financial centers' in South America other than GRU and maybe EZE. The shortest flights to money-Asia (ie SIN) would still be around the 10000nm mark and would only be viable with a 77L or A345 in special configuration. Apparently, there is just not enough super-high-yield demand on the route to warrant such a flight next to the various one stop alternatives in place. It would not be a real advantage for anybody travelling beyond SIN either.

So while it's practical in theory, they're unfeasible in practice.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineleonardoq From Australia, joined Nov 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10189 times:

if asia-gru is not possible, what about syd-gru nonstop? would it be feasible? is it much farther than any route in asia?


JJ, G3, QF, DJ, TG, LA, AR, EY, EK, LH, JQ, VY, TP, TZ, TR, AA
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2973 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10152 times:
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INTERESTING! the reason I mentioned Tokyo was the size of the Japanese Brazilians but that certainly would be more about connecting 2 financial centers, same with SIN or HK.

I wonder if SQ looked at a non-stop similar to EWR. With the hyper growth of Brazil I know of nobody in business who does not have an investment or interests there. I could easily see myself doing one of my big triangle trips...NYC, GRU, SIN, NYC. I haven't done a triangle with Brazil and Asia, but I have many time did NYC, EUROPE, GRU, JFK. It's just a matter of time before I need to do Brazil / Asia then home.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10096 times:

I'm not sure that the market is there for a daily nonstop... As it is, all the other flights between Asia and South America have fifth freedom rights which help support loads and profits. Without having those rights, I doubt that the traffic would exist to make such a service profitable.

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 8):
if asia-gru is not possible, what about syd-gru nonstop? would it be feasible? is it much farther than any route in asia?

Would be possible, the only aircraft capable would be the A345 (have to have 4 engines for ETOPS which eliminates the 77L). AKL-GRU is much more likely IMO.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9987 times:

I still think we will see some non- stops in the future with 787 or A-350's, it will be a while though.


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User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9980 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Isn't it now possible to connect "any" 2 points on the globe non-stop with the right aircraft (and by the way what ac has the range?)

No, it's not possible. When people started commenting that any 2 points on the globe would be connected was with a US perspective, because any commercially feasible route can be reached from any point in the US.

Besides, you seem not to be considering DOH and DXB as Asia.

[Edited 2011-11-20 20:03:11]

User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2973 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9867 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):

I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia. What did I write that led you to think that? I guess I focused my attention on Asia and Brazil as both are on my itinerary often.

I was not aware that "any 2 points in the world" meant only from the USA. If so why did Boeing use a 777 from Sydney to London, via the Pacific (the long way) to make the point? They could have just as easily flown to South Africa from Seattle (if that would be the more than half the world)? I always figured it was to boost international attention.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9828 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia.

I agree that for the purposes of Aviation, the ME isn't really Asia. The geographical location is vastly different, so while they're technically Asian nations in continent, in terms of Aviation I'd place them as Middle East/North Africa.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I was not aware that "any 2 points in the world" meant only from the USA. If so why did Boeing use a 777 from Sydney to London, via the Pacific (the long way) to make the point? They could have just as easily flown to South Africa from Seattle (if that would be the more than half the world)? I always figured it was to boost international attention.

These planes will fly connect any two points on the globe. The point that C010T3 was making is that the US is the only place where all areas of the world can be economically reached in passenger service. A 77L/A345 SYD-LHR service is possible, but with very few passengers. However from the United States there are only a couple of major destinations that would be hard to serve (such as PER).


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2230 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9756 times:

Quoting something (Reply 7):
There are no real 'financial centers' in South America other than GRU and maybe EZE.

That is actually false. Cities like Rio de Janeiro and Santiago both boast robust and growing financial and banking centers. Many well-known corporations have offices and are undergoing mega projects in the financial districts of these two cities and are also expanding their presence in places like Lima, Bogota, many others in Brasil. If there were no "financial centers" in Latin America, then why would US and European carriers be dead-set launching new routes to cities in Chile, Peru, Colombia, etc and continually clamoring for increased access to restricted markets like Brasil? (and I'm not just talking about GRU) from cities like London, New York, Miami, Frankfurt, etc. etc.

Just because yes, it doesn't make financial sense to deploy an aircraft on an ULH route from Asia to South America doesn't mean you can make sweeping statements about the continent in its entirety. There are also tons of other commercial ties between Asia and Latin America outside of finance and banking, not to mention tourism and VFR traffic which does exist as well (particularly between Japan and Brasil) that drive the travel demand between the two regions.

How is that relevant to the discussion anyway??



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9514 times:

GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) BOM (19°05'19"N 72°52'05"E) 82.1° (E) 7431 nm
GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) SIN (1°21'01"N 103°59'40"E) 123.7° (SE) 8644 nm
GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) NRT (35°45'55"N 140°23'08"E) 336.4° (NW) 9984 nm
GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) PVG (31°08'36"N 121°48'19"E) 50.1° (NE) 10033 nm
(thanks www.gcmap.com )

Well, BOM is Asia, not "Middle East/North Africa", GRU-BOM distance is shorter than GRU-SIN, but neither Indian nor Brazilian airlines seem to be interested to operate that route anytime soon. And worth to mention, GRU-BOM wouldn't be a market for those SQ SIN-EWR configuration aircraft type to fly.

Even some route like BOG-NRT linking Northern South America major city with Japan would be too much of a stretch and hardly profitable without the right aircraft, configuration and regional economics..
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) BOM (19°05'19"N 72°52'05"E) 52.6° (NE) 8398 nm
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) SIN (1°21'01"N 103°59'40"E) 15.8° (N) 10424 nm
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) NRT (35°45'55"N 140°23'08"E) 324.3° (NW) 7704 nm
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) PVG (31°08'36"N 121°48'19"E) 338.2° (N) 8475 nm
(thanks www.gcmap.com )



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8577 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 9165 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 2):
Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Is there a non-stop I'm unaware of?
There is not.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia. What did I write that led you to think that? I guess I focused my attention on Asia and Brazil as both are on my itinerary often.

But you should. No offense but DOH and DXB are in Asia so the statement that there are no non-stop connections between GRU and Asia is totally false. To say that Dubai is not Asia is like saying that Kiev in not in Europe or that Panama is not in South America, or that Morocco is not in Africa. Ridiculous.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 9158 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Panama is not in South America

Well, Panama technically isn't.


User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 9029 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
or that Panama is not in South America

OMG.. get an Atlas ASAP...

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8457 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 9005 times:
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Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
The EWR-SIN flight is only profitable because it is a specially configured B777 with a smaller passenger load to allow the distance. Also - the aircraft is a premium aircraft for business customers. There are no economy class tickets sold - only business class.

Singapore Air flies a A340-500 with 100 J class seats nonstop from SIN to EWR.

Dubai and Qatar have nonstops to Sao Paulo and Rio. Those are the most direct flights for Asian passengers. Johannesburg may be the second most direct from SIN, HKG and Bangkok to GRU.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 8948 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
But you should. No offense but DOH and DXB are in Asia so the statement that there are no non-stop connections between GRU and Asia is totally false. To say that Dubai is not Asia is like saying that Kiev in not in Europe or that Panama is not in South America, or that Morocco is not in Africa. Ridiculous.

As others have mentioned, Panama is not in South America (but rather North America), so be careful about how demeaning you are toward the OP.

Regardless, when I replied indicating that there aren't any non-stops, I was replying to the spirit of his question rather than the letter. He only mentioned eastern Asian airlines, so I addressed the question as such.


User currently onlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4052 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 8934 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia



There is no other alternative. Not in Europe, not in Africa. Not an island. There is not a continent called Middle East.



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User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 8828 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 22):
There is no other alternative. Not in Europe, not in Africa. Not an island. There is not a continent called Middle East.

Asia isn't referred to as a continent in this discussion, but rather as a region. In terms of regions, Asia is vastly different compared with the Middle East.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 8817 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 23):
Asia isn't referred to as a continent in this discussion, but rather as a region. In terms of regions, Asia is vastly different compared with the Middle East.

Well I always thought Asia was the continent, and South Asia, Southeast Asia, Central Asia and so on were regions. That is like saying Europe is a region in Europe.


25 FlyingHollander : Off course DXB and DOH are in Asia. However, Asia is so spread out that the Middle East (lets say TLV) and East Asia (lets say NRT) are complete diff
26 airbazar : Ahahah, oops. The coffee hadn't kicked in yet. I meant to say Paraguay. I wasn't being demeaning, simply stating a fact. The OP mentioned SQ which is
27 Post contains images Markam : I'm afraid that Panama is indeed NOT in South America. It is in Central America, which if one has to choose is usually considered part of North Ameri
28 staralliance85 : At the moment, the stops in Europe and North America are sufficient for flights from South America- Eastern Asia. Maybe we will see LANTAM start a GRU
29 incitatus : Europe is not a continent. Europe is a peninsula of Eurasia - same applies to Arabia / Middle East, or SE Asia. Europe has continent status because o
30 Dellatorre : Moving on from the whole Asia, Middle East discussion, and focusing on the topic, I don't believe we're close to a non-stop flight from GRU to Asia (C
31 AirPacific747 : I've always been teached that there are 7 (seven) continents Africa Antarctica Asia Australia(Oceania) Europe North America South America Isn't it al
32 airbazar : I wouldn't bet against it. If SQ choses to transfer their A345 product to the B789 (all J class), they could conceivably fly non-stop SIN-GRU. SQ is
33 gemuser : Lets not restart that argument please. What is a continent depends on where you live, where & when you were educated and what sort of definition
34 Markam : Not that it matters, but since you mention this, the count of continents is indeed not so clear cut, e.g. in some educational systems it is taught th
35 VC10er : I did not and never did intend for this post to devolve into accurate lines of what is factually Asia or how sometimes regions of the world are carve
36 Dellatorre : I guess the proposal for such a topic was achieved then........
37 VC10er : Sim, Obrigado!
38 motorhussy : Oh come on now, it's widely accepted that the Occident and the Orient are separate continents divided by the geographic borders of the Caucasus and U
39 LipeGIG : The basic concept is the distance together with the lack of historical, business or language ties. As said, you can expect 110J flying SIN-NYC, but yo
40 Post contains images AirPacific747 : I actually thought of this after I posted, but went to bed, and didn't bother getting up again to correct the mistake. Sorry!
41 777way : Doha and Dubai are in West Asia to be precise. Both are right. While ME might be different to rest of Asia, but then each Asian region is vastly diffe
42 airbazar : Not from SIN, but I would be shocked if we don't have many more than 110J daily passnegers between NRT and GRU, or between HKG/PVG/PEK and GRU. I thi
43 qf002 : The 789 being a 8,000-8,500nm aircraft... What you're suggesting is a flight that is 500nm longer than SIN-EWR using a plane that flies 500-1000nm le
44 leonardoq : are u sure? because i don't see EZE or SCL being a bigger market than GRU...
45 airbazar : We haven't seen the 789 fly yet but I would be very surprised if the "baseline" 789 (or A359 for that matter), don't at least equal the range of the
46 qf002 : Boeing lists the range of the 789 as '8000-8500nm'. The A345, in a similar configuration, has a range of 9,000nm. Already potentially a 1000nm gap. A
47 Dellatorre : I agree!! NZ is another example of how the 788's range fell short of it's expectations. The airline was counting on it to fly directly to GRU, but lo
48 AngMoh : The only planes available either in current fleets or for sale today which could fly these distances are A345 and 77L. Nothing coming is going to mat
49 airbazar : You are kidding right? The A345 can just barely fly the ~9,000nm between SIN-EWR with only 100 seats. SQ can't even outfit their F class product on t
50 Post contains images qf002 : I see your argument, but I do think it's possible. The 77W has an extremely premium configuration (hence the low seat count), but a 789 with the regi
51 mandala499 : Errr... great circle line? It's 9535 STATUTE Miles = 8285 nautical miles. And SIN-GRU is 8644NM great circle. They probably fly only about 7900-8000
52 airbazar : I get what you're saying but I also believe that what's listed by Airbus and what the plane can actually do for the airline are two completely differ
53 Post contains images mandala499 : Just building on from that... SIN-LAD is 5500NM or so... add 30kt tailwind, air distance becomes... 5100NM or so... LAD-GRU is 3550NM or so... add ev
54 VC10er : Just curious, what is the 747-8i range as claimed so far? Is it way shorter than the A345 or the 777L? Also what is the size of a 777L? Closer to a cl
55 Viscount724 : Same size as the 772, except for the slightly longer wingspan due to the raked wingtips common to the 77L and 77W..
56 Post contains images qf002 : There we go... I'm an absolute idiot (forgot to switch gc mapper over to nm rather than mi), and that's totally changed my perceptions... I was basin
57 Concordski : I don't see a nonstop to GRU for a long, long time. There would realistically need to be a new unannounced aircraft to fly the route that could fly su
58 Superfly : Aerolineas Argentina flies non-stop Buenos Aries - Auckland, New Zealand with an A340-200.[Edited 2011-11-24 20:55:16]
59 leonardoq : JJ has two a345 that are grounded ... they could easily use it in any australasia route... i personally would love to see that happening, if it weren'
60 qf002 : Plus GRU-SYD is a 900nm longer trip than EZE-SYD...
61 LipeGIG : i'm sure. I studied dozens of statistics, business ties... and there's a true lack of them. You have business, yes that's true, but it's too much bas
62 airbazar : Thank you very much. I really appreciate you analysis. Looks like SQ will have to wait for that elusive A359R. However, regarding ETOPS 180, I was un
63 AngMoh : I don't think they make a loss. SIN-EWR has good loads. I had trouble booking seats in the past. The only time I have flown them, J was full and we h
64 airbazar : Not necessarily true. Like with any airline, not all of SQ's routes are profitable. FRA-JFK for example is a route that is rumored to never have been
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