Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Small European Carriers On The Brink Of Abyss?  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11371 times:

Just hours ago we lost Astraeus. Now we have T. Cook in bad shape, and a justified uncertainty about the behavior of the travelers in the next months, considering the current economy in a significant number of European countries.
To worsen the situation, apparently the banks across Europe are very reluctant to give money to anybody unless you have a mine gold to warrant the loans, something that the small airlines don't have, and the other possible savior ( governments ) across the continent are struggling with their own financial crisis ( as part of the problem or trying to solve the problem, but every country in the continent is talking about crisis ).

Will the smallest airlines survive to this cocktail or is a big crunch in this market around the corner ?

Your bets ?

Rgds.

G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5303 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11300 times:

Amsterdam Airlines also went bust a week or so ago.

User currently offlineCPHFF From Sweden, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10697 times:

My bet is on Cimber/Sterling. A true money pit.


Detroit is bankrupt. Don't forget to thank UAW folks!
User currently offlineBY738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10628 times:

Manx2
Eastern
Spanair
Iceland Express
Cyprus Airways
Air Malta
Air Berlin
Adria

Would be on my list....


User currently offlineEuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting BY738 (Reply 3):

Manx2
Eastern
Spanair
Iceland Express
Cyprus Airways
Air Malta
Air Berlin
Adria

Some of those are suitable candidates (especially Iceland Express) however I would question Manx2 as they operate some very niche routes to/from IOM, where the economy seems reasonably strong. They are essentially a ticketing agent for contracted ACMI providers too. Eastern has many niche routes, with a focus on North Sea oil business traffic. Adria is owned by the Government of Slovenia.

Air Baltic were reportedly in financial trouble.

[Edited 2011-11-23 11:04:59]

User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 828 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10465 times:

Air Berlin? This not a bit of a questionable one? I couldnt see OneWorld going to the bother of accepting someone who is about to go belly-up


Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlineEuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10404 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 5):
Air Berlin? This not a bit of a questionable one? I couldnt see OneWorld going to the bother of accepting someone who is about to go belly-up

I believe they've had some significant financial problems of late, however as Germany's 2nd largest airline (so not really small) and future member of Oneworld, I reckon they should be OK, although I don't know a great deal about the state of the company.

[Edited 2011-11-23 11:28:26]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10405 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 5):
Air Berlin? This not a bit of a questionable one? I couldnt see OneWorld going to the bother of accepting someone who is about to go belly-up

Mexicana joined Oneworld 9 months before they went bust and suspended service.


User currently offlinef4f3a From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10315 times:

I think Thomas cook should survive . They owe too much
Money about 1 billion euros or so. They also have been going the longest.
Since 1880s as a company.

I think that monarch are in serious trouble ATM . Would be shme to see them go .
What about Titan are they still going?


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5303 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10277 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 5):
Air Berlin? This not a bit of a questionable one? I couldnt see OneWorld going to the bother of accepting someone who is about to go belly-up

Hello - Kingfisher?

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 8):
I think Thomas cook should survive . They owe too much
Money about 1 billion euros or so. They also have been going the longest.
Since 1880s as a company.

Length of service means nothing.... Nor does the amount of money they owe mean that the more they owe they should stay in business... its the opposite - the more they owe the more likely they are to disappear.


User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9973 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 2):
My bet is on Cimber/Sterling. A true money pit.

Agreed.

Quoting EIRules (Reply 5):

Air Berlin? This not a bit of a questionable one? I couldnt see OneWorld going to the bother of accepting someone who is about to go belly-up

The founder of Air Berlin resigned a few months ago and its been reportedly not doing as good.

Quoting EuroWings (Reply 4):
Air Baltic were reportedly in financial trouble.

Correct.

My personal opinion:

I think that some carriers in Italy are going to vanish as Alitalia owns a lot of the Italian market.

Also BH Airlines (based in Sarajevo)
+ JAT
+ some small Turkish carriers
+ recently opened Slovakian Airlines
+ recently opened Samair (Hungary)
..... a lot more...



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

Air Malta? Why so...

Irshava there is not much left to dissapear in Italy. Meridiana/Eurofly/Air Italy all one airline now.. Alitalia/Airone/volareweb all one.. Dolimiti are pretty much Lufthansa.

I think Blue Panorama, Windjet and NEOS are all thats left.. besides a few really small airlines.


User currently offlinelows From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1177 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8534 times:

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 8):

I think Thomas cook should survive . They owe too much
Money about 1 billion euros or so. They also have been going the longest.
Since 1880s as a company.

And US banking house Lehman Brothers was in business since the 1860s...but they didn't get bailed out during the financial crisis. History with these things is usually not indicative. TC could go just as easily.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7832 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 11):
I think Blue Panorama, Windjet and NEOS are all thats left.

I can see a Meridiana & Windjet merger somewhere down the line.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineJambost From Ireland, joined Jun 2010, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7416 times:

Anyone know how LS are doing? They seem to have done well so far through the crisis.


1APR14 Ireland Direct, 3 A380-9LR,Equiped Irish Bar & Casino. All Y+ seating. Serving DUB-PER-SYD/MEL
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7179 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Does anyone have numbers (profit/loss)? Are any missing fuel payments a la IT?

I do not wish any airline to fail...

Quoting anstar (Reply 9):
Hello - Kingfisher?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Mexicana joined Oneworld 9 months before they went bust and suspended service.

Yea... I'm not seeing a correlation with Oneworld membership and longevity. At least not a positive correlation   .

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLTU330 From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7167 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 5):
Air Berlin? This not a bit of a questionable one? I couldnt see OneWorld going to the bother of accepting someone who is about to go belly-up

I agree. Air Berlin have restructured and implemented a cost saving scheme that will mean 500 Million Euros are saved in 2012 and 1Billion Euros in 2013 just from the streamlining of the fleet and deferral of planned deliveries. The biggest problem that Air Berlin had was too many unprofitable routes, especially from the smaller regional airports within Germany. The German Tax system is not exactly helping any airline within or wanting to fly to Germany at this time, but by eliminating routes from the smaller airports the fleet can be reduced by around 20 frames. Next year at least 13 Boeing 737NG aircraft are being returned to the lessor. These aircraft entered the fleet when leasing costs were extremely high. By returning these aircraft and operating a fleet with lower leasing costs, and a lower age (reduced maintenance costs) the future for Air Berlin seems a lot better than it did earlier this year.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6903 times:

Yes, the fight is not yet lost for Air Berlin, but also not yet won. If the criminal insider attacks of the rating+investing mafia now also confronts Germany directly since yesterday, predictions are impossible currently.

User currently offlineDutchBoeing From Netherlands, joined Apr 2010, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5988 times:

Hi,

This is a really interesting post. I've been wanting to start a similar one myself. As we book a lot of tickets / charters, it is very important for us to know how smaller airlines are doing. Who will survive this coming cruel winter? Does anybody have more info on the position of:

* OLT(JetAir) (they seem to be keeping the F100 / S2000 after all - they give us quotes for them)
* Trade Air (2 x F100 from Croatia)
* CCA (B733/4 ex PRG)
* AirExplore (B733/4 ex BTS)
* AIS Airlines (2 x JS32 ex LEY)
* Enter Air (B737 ex Poland)
* Travel Service (B737 ex CZ)
* Monarch (somebody mentioned them, are they not doing ok?)

Somebody also mentioned Eastern. That surprises me. Is Eastern really in problems? Is Flybe perhaps killing them? Thanks for your input!

Regards,


DB


User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5886 times:

OLT(JetAir) seems to be an odd customer with F100 / S2000/ ATR42 / Do328 and J41 fleet  Wow! Rumors persist that they are looking for subsidized and/or niche routes to stay in the game.

If the financial crisis hits Poland hard LOT will be on this list in a manner of weeks. Cash is low, planes and other property (real estate) is being sold and leased back. This has been going on for years, 2012 might be the moment of truth.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 18):
* Monarch (somebody mentioned them, are they not doing ok?)

Monarch wont be dissapearing.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7695 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5447 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 9):
Nor does the amount of money they owe mean that the more they owe they should stay in business... its the opposite - the more they owe the more likely they are to disappear.

This depends on the lenders and how much they have lent.

Say a bank has already lent £1 billion. Now TCX need another £100 million. The bank will look very carefully at the recovery plan and IF - repeat IF - it looks achievable will find the £100 million in preference to the writing off the £1 billion.

On the other hand if a lender has no exposure then it is very unlikely he will want to even glance at any recovery proposal.

So current significat lenders do have a vested interest in keeping TCX in business.


User currently onlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 867 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Small airlines have been coming and going for years, nothing new there. Several years ago when the 'recession' started there were dire predictions of mass airline bankruptcies, especially among the locos, which never really happened except for a few smaller airlines like Skyeurope, Globespan etc

Of course one of the main predictors of these failures was Mr Ryanair so maybe we shouldn't be surprised that it didn't actually happen!

[Edited 2011-11-24 05:37:02]

User currently offlineCandid76 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 742 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 18):
Somebody also mentioned Eastern. That surprises me. Is Eastern really in problems? Is Flybe perhaps killing them? Thanks for your input!

Somebody thought of a random list of airlines and posted them. Eastern only compete on a couple of routes with BE and bmi regional, and in any case a large part of their business is charter not just scheduled services. You will find that many airlines that have got into trouble are only really active in one market segment (eggs in one basket as they say).


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2204 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Why Spanair? Aren't they out of the problem zone with cash injection from Catalan government last year and a stable set of owners?

LOT - yes, they've rumoured since some time to have problems.

Others that I see:

TAP
Malev

And one that isn't exactly small but I wouldn't be surprised if in the long run they only lived on thanks to state subsidies (if they are allowed to receive them): Air France. Not a lot of good news from them and with structural problems that will make the future a little difficult.

Also, would be dead if it weren't saved by Lufthansa: Austrian.


25 Babybus : Does anyone know of anyone who has actually flown Air Berlin? Last time I saw them in Rome they had virtually an empty aircraft. I wouldn't rule out
26 lows : Probably soon to be acquired by LH (I hope) and for sale as part of the EU Bailout of Portugal. Gott sei dank, nicht! But I also cannot imagine them
27 Humberside : And what financial information do you have to be base your opinion on for these two privately owned businesses? I don't follow Manx2 closely, but I c
28 Post contains images VV701 : Not so. There are plenty. Here are photos of 2 of their 6 UK registered aircraft. If you search the data base you will find amothyer three. Only one
29 BY738 : Like anyone is going to be able to produce "financial information". The thread was who thinks what, and I gave my thoughts. Because they are private
30 tonymctigue : I wouldn't hold my breadth on Manx2. If you recall, they had a fatal accident at ORK less than a year ago with the full accident investigation still
31 Post contains images Giancavia : When one manx related airline dissapears another shall pop up. How can manx2 be at fault for the crash? Not their aircraft or crew... anyways Q manx3.
32 EuroWings : They are a virtual airline, essentially just a ticketing agent. When you book a flight with them, the website makes clear which airline your flight i
33 Post contains links Humberside : It might have been an idea to explain why. Your post was not exactly a nice one for any T3 or Manx2 employee to read. This thread isn't just about ai
34 tonymctigue : No doubt, the RE brand will eventually disappear but the ownership structure is far from written in stone. The public service obligation subsidies ar
35 Humberside : I've not followed the ins and outs but Manx 2 surely falls under the Isle of Man, which is not an EU member and therefore how can the European High C
36 Post contains images PlymSpotter : An important factor to note with Eastern was their take-over of Air Southwest. They may have 'paid' a couple of million for them, but for that they g
37 BY738 : No. Year old data, given the last 6 months financial situation, means nothing. Published financial data for private companies only tells you what the
38 BY738 : Indeed. But watch you dont frighten the employees.
39 Humberside : Maybe, Maybe not, with some of the data. It's impossible to know what the current finances are. But the long term contract with Bristow and the revis
40 tonymctigue : Quite true. All I know is there were alot of representations made on behalf of the families of the victims about various courses of legal action. The
41 Byrdluvs747 : Of the airlines you mentioned, BA is the the only airline that can acquire EI entirely. The others can only buy 25%. BA turned down a deal due to EI'
42 EuroWings : If this legal battle does occur (and it creates much negative publicity), then I could perhaps see Manx2 following what Helios and Valujet did - an e
43 LX138 : I'm surprised Spanair are still around - they have been burning cash for years! On the Thomas Cook topic, I think there is probably an unfortunate pie
44 Post contains images Gonzalo : Agreed, if you Google "Manx2 Airline", the link to the Irishtimes page with the Metroliner belly up and burned in Cork is on the top, so the bad publ
45 bennett123 : Whilst technically Manx2 may only be a ticketing agent, that is not the impression given. There marketing material looks like an airline, (perhaps not
46 EuroWings : I understand that point of view, but your operating carrier for Manx2 is not hidden. When you book a flight it quite clearly states the airline (now
47 flyingalex : I've flown them several times, including to LAX! On all flights the load factor was OK, but I was a little concerned about the yields. In every case,
48 AirbusA6 : The Thomas Cook brand name is iconic and will live on in some form. As for the current company and airline(s), well that's a completely different matt
49 sandyb123 : Yes they are but for how long!? They operate in a very similar market that Astreaus did and the problem is that the Market has dissapeared (leisure t
50 EuroWings : I thought Titan offered more services than that - Astraeus became an ACMI provider only, they haven't had their own leisure charter flights in a whil
51 VV701 : Further the demise of Astraeus and earlier Flightline leaves Titan in a British ACMI market dominant position. This should enable them to up their ra
52 Mortyman : Think this will survive. The airline is heavely backed up by Turkish Airlines and the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina ( 49 % / 50,93 % )
53 irshava : I agree - its getting sued, change in leadership, an order (SSJ100 - which may or may not come true) which they cannot finance.... and other troubles
54 LOWS : Yes. And that throws up some strange routings. They offered me SZG-PMI-HAM. Needless to say I spent the extra 20€ and went with LH.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
NY Times On The Demolition Of NA Sundrome posted Thu Oct 6 2011 09:38:06 by psa188
Flying Cheap PBS Story On The Crash Of CO 3407 posted Wed Dec 29 2010 04:50:29 by BNE
TVC High On The List Of America's Rip-Off Airports posted Fri Oct 22 2010 07:27:53 by KarlB737
European Carriers And The 757? posted Thu Jul 1 2010 13:39:48 by overloaduk
A Little Competition On The Future Of Etihad posted Tue Jul 21 2009 23:18:30 by Kleinsim
Small European Carriers W/ Transatlantic Svc. posted Sun May 31 2009 11:11:09 by LHCVG
Malev On The Verge Of Bankruptcy posted Mon Nov 17 2008 22:29:36 by KrisYYZ
Respect Holidays Goes Bust On The Back Of XL posted Mon Sep 22 2008 05:01:19 by FCAFLYBOY
FlightBlogger: "One Year On: The Story Of The 787" posted Tue May 6 2008 02:29:32 by 797charter
Ocean Airlines (Italy) On The Brink? posted Sat Nov 3 2007 07:23:00 by OceansWorld
Malev On The Verge Of Bankruptcy posted Mon Nov 17 2008 22:29:36 by KrisYYZ
Respect Holidays Goes Bust On The Back Of XL posted Mon Sep 22 2008 05:01:19 by FCAFLYBOY
FlightBlogger: "One Year On: The Story Of The 787" posted Tue May 6 2008 02:29:32 by 797charter