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TWA And HP Merger?  
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2182 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7382 times:

I saw on wiki (not the best, I know) that TWA started code-sharing with America West in the 1990's that could've led to a merger. I have some questions like:
What would be the combined airlines name?
Would they be around today?
What would the industry look like today if this merger happened?

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_World_Airlines
(under "short turn-around" section)

Sorry if this has been posted before.


Go coogs! \n//
10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4073 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7370 times:

The TWA name most certainly would have been kept, and the combined airline would doubtless have gone the way of the dodo even after an HP merger. HP at the time was still quite small and wouldn't have added much to TWA other than PHX and LAS...hubs in low-yield markets.

User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7011 times:

I agree with HPRamper....a combined TW/HP would have been a mess. At the time, 1998, HP had some serious operational and financial issues....so serious that the FAA was watching them like a hawk. TW was hamstrung by the Caribou deal and tweeking the network around a STL fortress and trying to salvage JFK.

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5151 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Actually, the code-share was never implemented. It was planned, but TWA was running out of cash and AA came calling before the alliance went into effect.

While both carriers were having problems at the time, the network of the two were very complementary. Another one of those "what-if" scenarios.



Next Up: STL-EWR-STL for my first mileage run!
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 853 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6084 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 3):
the network of the two were very complementary. Another one of those "what-if" scenarios.

While the route networks of both carriers was complementary, there was not much else about the two companies that were similar. However HP looked at adopting some of the customer processing procedures of TW. Such as purchased upgrades to F-class day of departure, with the rate based on length of segment. In ABQ the TW gate was down the hall from HP and I could hear them making announcements for anyone who would like to purchase and upgrade to STL for $XX amount.
However hindsight 20/20 being what it is, AA likely saved HP from itself had a merger gone through. HP had serious operational problems during that period, and TW was burning through its $$$ fast. Its hard to say what could have happened had it gone through. One question I have in the "what if" arena, is. Would the combined company been able to shrink the size of STL to cause the Caribou deal to not have such a major impact on the operation? Or was Caribou a system wide thing that TW would not have been able to get around?
I like the fantasy of thinking TW would still be around. But alas they are not and same with HP. With things going the way they are at US, there wont be much evidence left of HP in the future too.

JD CRP



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5151 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 4):


Would the combined company been able to shrink the size of STL to cause the Caribou deal to not have such a major impact on the operation? Or was Caribou a system wide thing that TW would not have been able to get around?

The Karabu arrangement did not include tickets that originated or terminated in STL. Nor were code-share tickets included. Therefore it was conceivable that HP/TWA could have code-shared until the Karabu deal expired, then possibly a full merger later. As originally conceived, it was merely an alliance, no merger was contemplated at the time.



Next Up: STL-EWR-STL for my first mileage run!
User currently offlineiflyCA From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4753 times:

I'm sorry but what is the Carabou/Karabu deal?

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5151 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

Quoting iflyCA (Reply 6):


I'm sorry but what is the Carabou/Karabu deal?

It was an arrangement between TWA and Carl Icahn that allowed Icahn to buy bulk tickets on TWA at a discount and resell to the public while pocketing the difference. THE major noose around TWA's financial neck in the late 90's, virtually assuring TWA could never turn a profit until the contract expired.

Full details:

http://contracts.onecle.com/lowestfare/twa-ticket-1995-06-14.shtml



Next Up: STL-EWR-STL for my first mileage run!
User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

This was why TWA started focus cities in LAX and SJU, with moderate success. They also tried doing non-stops between non-hub/focus cities in the mid to late 90's such as LAS-MCI, MCI-JFK and started using slots they had and running flights again from MCI to LGA and MCI to DCA.

User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

IMO, there was really nothing that anybody could have done to save TWA once Icahn gained the reins. He systematically sold the airline off piece by piece...even with the addition of America West it would have breathed little life into the airline I think. The final nail in the coffin came when Icahn forced them to agree to the Karibu agreement. 2003 would have been the year TWA was relieved of the obligation, but a buyout by another airline was their only alternative to liquidation by 2001. TWA was plagued by an extremely old fleet that they failed to modernize until the very last minute...Icahn, who had no interest in helping the airline grow domestically or internationally, and a hub within basically one city at the very end, which was not big enough to support all of TWA's operations there.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5271 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting Thrust (Reply 9):
IMO, there was really nothing that anybody could have done to save TWA once Icahn gained the reins. He systematically sold the airline off piece by piece...even with the addition of America West it would have breathed little life into the airline I think. The final nail in the coffin came when Icahn forced them to agree to the Karibu agreement. 2003 would have been the year TWA was relieved of the obligation, but a buyout by another airline was their only alternative to liquidation by 2001. TWA was plagued by an extremely old fleet that they failed to modernize until the very last minute...Icahn, who had no interest in helping the airline grow domestically or internationally, and a hub within basically one city at the very end, which was not big enough to support all of TWA's operations there.

Icahn liked to buy up stock in a company, threaten to gain control of the company, wait for the white knight to outbid him, and then sell making a nice profit.

The problem with TWA was that no one came along to "save" TWA from Icahn. So, Icahn got stuck buying the company. Icahn may be very smart, when it comes to determining if a company is valued properly by the market, but he had no prior experience at running a company. That lack of experience reared it ugly head during Icahn's tenure as CEO.

Despite managers telling Icahn that TWA needed to renew the fleet, he wouldn't put in any orders during the 1980s. He simply couldn't understand that while aircraft cost millions of dollars, TWA would save a lot on fuel and maintenance, and that new aircraft reduce delays and cancellations due to aircraft going tech.


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