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Why Are EI Flying IAD-MAD For UA?  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9275 times:

What kind of service is this? I see IAD as an EI destination but there is not MAD in UA network? and why a foreign airline not a US carrier doing this for UA?

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerjm777ual From UK - England, joined Nov 2011, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9219 times:

I believe it saves money, since American and United aren't the best of freinds.


Greetings from Dulles!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9148 times:

Does this carry any Aer Lingus passengers?

User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8093 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9048 times:

I must admit, I have been very curious since I recently heard about this route. So - how did this interesting sun come about (and when?), how is it doing, how do UA handle a foreign type when they have to display a seat map for online check in?

Would love to take this flight. Aer Lingus aren't bad on long haul, plus it's such a novelty. Although they've been doing transatlantic since the very early 60s, to me they are the quintessential short haul carrier, and when I took their flight to LA (now discontinued alas), it was LOL weird: "I'm flying over the Grand Canyon...on AER LINGUS!!"

[Edited 2011-11-28 13:22:16 by srbmod]


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinerjm777ual From UK - England, joined Nov 2011, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8902 times:

I don't think it carries Aer Lingus passengers, but i could be wrong.


Greetings from Dulles!
User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8869 times:

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
and why a foreign airline not a US carrier doing this for UA?

I don't think you can call Aer Lingus a foreign carrier in the US! If you get my drift  


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8772 times:

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 4):

Yes, it does carry Aer lingus passengers, though not many. EI do sell it also with an EI code, but UA handle the commercial aspects of the service and EI the operational.

The A330 in EI config is the right aircraft for the route, which UA did not have at the time.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineA340crew From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8753 times:

It is a joint venture and can be booked via united or aer lingus, it is a mix of pax from both sides but majority of the pax are making connections through IAD on UA or MAD on Spanair. if you go to uited.com search for the flight and view available seats it shows the a330 seat map no problem. Flights are EI crews and product and have been very full.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8694 times:

^ Very similar to what PIA-Saudia did in 70s and 80s, PIA used to fly their 707s for Saudia routed Jeddah-Kano in Nigeria, flight was actually Saudia but it also carried PK code and PIA promoted it as their service too.

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8655 times:

It's also (rightfully) very controversial for the UA labor group. I could stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that the Aer Lingus pilots who are flying it are doing so on a discounted wage scale, and the flight attendants were hired by a third-party vendor and aren't Aer Lingus F/A's per se. In fact, I believe the crews for these flights are based at IAD, and these are the only routes they can work. Essentially, like regional flying, they outsourced mainline flying to another mainline style carrier outside the scope of a traditional code-share or alliance agreement.

User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 429 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8657 times:

UA was infatuated with this "virtual brand" and had intentions to expand it using EI because it was cheaper and their labor contract allowed for it. Hopefully new management realizes that their brand is too important to outsource on long-haul, high revenue flights and this flight is replaced with UA metal


We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8584 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 10):
UA was infatuated with this "virtual brand" and had intentions to expand it using EI because it was cheaper and their labor contract allowed for it. Hopefully new management realizes that their brand is too important to outsource on long-haul, high revenue flights and this flight is replaced with UA metal

Also if memory serves me right, and to echo what was said above, I believe at the time UA (under Glen Tilton) may have been in negotiations with the pilot group on another matter and used this as a shot across the bow, so to speak, to make a point. AFA also strongly protested, and a good link here (http://www.unitedafa.org/news/events/2010/aer-lingus/default.aspx) has all that info.

At some point mainline carriers need to realize that this race to the bottom by outsourcing regional flying and, in this case, mainline international flying is a short term gain (lower costs) but a long term loss (brand/image damage).


User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3165 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8511 times:

This route is a rare breed. One could earn United elite qualifying miles that count toward elite status. One can also use UA miles and UA swu's to upgrade.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 429 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 12):
This route is a rare breed. One could earn United elite qualifying miles that count toward elite status. One can also use UA miles and UA swu's to upgrade.

It is for all intents and purposes a UA operation. Same thing as having Expressjet operate the flight as a UA express flight when Xjet had their own branded ops up and running with a Xjet liveried aircraft.

Quoting catiii (Reply 11):
Also if memory serves me right, and to echo what was said above, I believe at the time UA (under Glen Tilton) may have been in negotiations with the pilot group on another matter and used this as a shot across the bow, so to speak, to make a point. AFA also strongly protested, and a good link here (http://www.unitedafa.org/news/events/2010/aer-lingus/default.aspx) has all that info.

  



We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8337 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 9):


Wrong!

The crew are all AerLingus crews, they just dont normally operate other routes because EI don't fly anywhere else from Washington.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4452 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8304 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 13):
It is for all intents and purposes a UA operation. Same thing as having Expressjet operate the flight as a UA express flight when Xjet had their own branded ops up and running with a Xjet liveried aircraft.

Well, at least the plane isn't all painted up in UA colors - that would be the icing on the cake in terms of this deception.

Plane not owned/leased by United: Check

Pilots not United employees: Check

Flight attendants not United employees: Check

MX not performed by United: Check

Sounds like it meets all the requirements for being a United flight.

* Not restricting this criticism to UA... DL and US are plenty guilty of this too.

Quoting catiii (Reply 9):
Essentially, like regional flying, they outsourced mainline flying to another mainline style carrier outside the scope of a traditional code-share or alliance agreement.

Right.

Quoting catiii (Reply 11):
At some point mainline carriers need to realize that this race to the bottom by outsourcing regional flying and, in this case, mainline international flying is a short term gain (lower costs) but a long term loss (brand/image damage).

Well stated.


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1426 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8175 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 11):
At some point mainline carriers need to realize that this race to the bottom by outsourcing regional flying and, in this case, mainline international flying is a short term gain (lower costs) but a long term loss (brand/image damage).

Normally I would agree...BUT....I would far prefer to fly on a brand spanking new Aer Lingus A330 with full AVOD throughout and be served by their cabin crews then go on anything United can currently offer!!!!

[Edited 2011-11-28 15:46:49]


My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 429 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8156 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 16):
Its cheaper for UA to

Quoting catiii (Reply 11):
At some point mainline carriers need to realize that this race to the bottom by outsourcing regional flying and, in this case, mainline international flying is a short term gain (lower costs) but a long term loss (brand/image damage).

Normally I would agree...BUT....I would far prefer to fly on a brand spanking new Aer Lingus A330 with full AVOD throughout and be served by their cabin crews then go on anything United can currently offer!!!!

What about a newly refurbished UA 763 with CO fully-flat BF seats, AVOD, E+ and CO catering?  

[Edited 2011-11-28 15:48:24]


We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8003 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 16):
Normally I would agree...BUT....I would far prefer to fly on a brand spanking new Aer Lingus A330 with full AVOD throughout and be served by their cabin crews then go on anything United can currently offer!!!!

Well...the cabin crews are outsourced too. They are US nationals based in IAD who are on EI's payroll as contracted to do the IAD (or any future US city) - MAD flying ONLY. I believe the flight deck is native EI who work a 'W' trip from DUB IAD MAD IAD DUB.


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1426 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7811 times:

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 18):
Well...the cabin crews are outsourced too. They are US nationals based in IAD who are on EI's payroll as contracted to do the IAD (or any future US city) - MAD flying ONLY. I believe the flight deck is native EI who work a 'W' trip from DUB IAD MAD IAD DUB.

Not quite but nearly   . EI no longer operate DUB-IAD anymore nor have they done for about 2 years. I do believe some flight crew where seconded to IAD in the early stages and a number of cabin crew from DUB, BFS and LGW were also sent over to cover periods of time with full lodgings provided in IAD for the duration however the crew in IAD by and large are hired directly by EI through their own website and are as you say, solely US based operating only this route. There are constantly "crewmours" that they will be put on the Irish routes but obviously this has not happened nor I would say is likely to happen.

Going by the regular recruitment ads on aerlingus.com for IAD based cabin crew something tells me the attrition is high!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7740 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 19):
Not quite but nearly . EI no longer operate DUB-IAD anymore nor have they done for about 2 years. I do believe some flight crew where seconded to IAD in the early stages and a number of cabin crew from DUB, BFS and LGW were also sent over to cover periods of time with full lodgings provided in IAD for the duration however the crew in IAD by and large are hired directly by EI through their own website and are as you say, solely US based operating only this route. There are constantly "crewmours" that they will be put on the Irish routes but obviously this has not happened nor I would say is likely to happen.

REALLY??   I did not know that the front office was outsourced too. I forgot about EI pulling the DUB route a few years ago...my fault. I do know that this is a serious sticking point at UA with ALPA and AFA and the unions at EI were far from pleased when this arrangement was announced.


User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

I imagine this route will be served by United mainline after 2012 on a 2-class 763 or 764.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7329 times:

So IAD is not an Aer Lingus destination?

User currently offlineMD13 From Venezuela, joined Dec 2006, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 7234 times:

I was supposed to be on the MAD-IAD flight last August but it got cancelled due to T-storms in IAD.
All the branding in MAD was UA.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 7154 times:

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 20):

The front office is not outsourced! They are EI crew who were offered relocation to IAD base.

The cabin crews are EI crews who work IAD-MAD only because EI don't fly anywhere else from Washington!

Less of the conspiracy theories!



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
25 NorthstarBoy : I have to wonder, do they use dedicated aircraft, or do they ferry an A330 between Madrid and Dublin before and after the flight?
26 330guy : They are Aer Lingus cabin crew hired by Aer Lingus, but only work this route... lets put that one to bed now!! Kind of, one aircraft will stay on the
27 Post contains links sac : http://www.aerlingus.com/aboutus/car...svacancies/cabincrew-washingtondc/
28 rdh3e : And many don't live in IAD! When I did this flight last year the purser lived in CLE and commuted. The FA's were all (the ones I spoke with) American
29 FRAIAD : I am pretty sure that it is because United (before the merger with CO) did not have two class aircraft and the route does not provide enough demand fo
30 catiii : But the configuration is 2 class on the EI 330s, no?
31 330guy : Thats correct, becuase one of the req's for being hired is having a working visa for the US and also being based in IAD, so my guess would be that th
32 chicawgo : OK I'm so frustrated with incorrect information being given here that I decided I should pay the membership fee and finally join! I flew business clas
33 330guy : Its too late to edit my previous post but regarding EI hiring the FA's If you go to the EI website they are currently hiring FA's for this route. Firs
34 Post contains links grimey : I think EI have also done the swap on the American side; fly a A330 from JFK / BOS to IAD and have the IAD aircraft fly in the opposite direction jus
35 330guy : Thats prob makes more sense, Dont they have more downtime between flights on the US side than they do in DUB & SNN?
36 RoseFlyer : Hard product usually refers to the seat itself. 52'' pitch lie flat seats are nothing like the fully flat seats that the IPTE UA fleet has or CO's re
37 chicawgo : Sorry I did not mean to include the marketing aspects in the hard product. I should have started a new paragraph. To be honest, I did notice it was n
38 777way : You could have emailed the info to anyone of the members here via their profiles contact, but anyways welcome onboard.
39 Post contains images IrishAyes : I think it's about time he signed up for a membership ...I've been trying to convince him to do so for several months Interestingly, this route start
40 chicawgo : I actually have wanted to join for a while so I used this as an excuse!
41 Hypoxik : This thread motivated me to join as well. Only been 10 years.
42 Post contains images chicawgo : Cheers!
43 777way : Did you know membership here used to be free uptil a decade or so ago.
44 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : And many examples elsewhere in the world. Two weeks ago I flew :LX GVA-ZRH-PRG-ZRH-GVA. The ZRH-PRG-ZRH flights were operated by German carrier Conta
45 IBERIA747 : My sister flies this route quite often as she has to go to Washington DC for work reasons. She says that the cabin crews are always the same and that
46 grimey : I think some of the JFK flights have 4-5 hours down time, its also only a 1 hour ferry flight from IAD to JFK and they don't have to worry about as q
47 tonystan : You will be very hard pressed to find an EI330 in SNN these days. Their operation out of there has been ravaged due to low demand and all atlantic op
48 FRAIAD : I meant three-class. Sorry about that.
49 armcom : chicawgo and Hypoxik, This thread also motivated me to rejoin after 7 years.
50 N1120A : Its basically a very long United Express route. UA doesn't want to pay a major competitor to run a route. Not only would the competitor not want to h
51 Post contains images 330guy : Thats true... if they were based in MAD, But thier not, they are based in IAD meaning they require a US visa. I dont know the reasons behind it but i
52 N1120A : This is actually fairly surprising. Indeed, they could rather easily use DUB-based crews.
53 Post contains images 330guy : Belive me... when it comes to EI managment, theres no such word as suprising!!
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