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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?  
User currently offlineLHLX From Israel, joined Nov 2011, 79 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6983 times:

With CO's 2 daily flight between EWR and TLV being very profiltable, and seeing that MOST US - Israel routes are profitable, do you guys think there is a chance we'll see UA/CO operating nonstops from TLV beyond EWR? IAD and ORD of course come to mind...

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6207 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days ago) and read 6755 times:

TLV from NYC is a huge market and does not really rely much on connections, ORD while I'm sure has a market to Israel would depend much more heavily on connections. That beng said the route would also depend highly on VFR traffic and people headed to Israel on holiday which does not produce the best of yields. Add ot the fact this would be a long route and you would have to at least dedicate 2 widebody aircraft if you want to operate the route daily. I am sure UAL is most happy at the moment just routing pax through EWR if you wish to travel to Israel, I for one don't foresee ORD-TLV happening soon. TLV is a big market from the US but I personally think the market is already well served between DL, UAL/CO, US and LY - let's not forget the many options you get through the European carriers.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineLHLX From Israel, joined Nov 2011, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days ago) and read 6747 times:

How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?

South Florida (MIA, FLL, PBI) has a huge israeli and even bigger Jewish community.
Could UA channel some of that Israel traffic through IAD? Also, I am sure Washington, Baltimore etc have very big communities.

Or is that market covered by LY/CO from EWR and US from PHL?


User currently offlinejfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6659 times:

Quoting LHLX (Reply 7):
How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?

South Florida (MIA, FLL, PBI) has a huge israeli and even bigger Jewish community.
Could UA channel some of that Israel traffic through IAD? Also, I am sure Washington, Baltimore etc have very big communities.

Or is that market covered by LY/CO from EWR and US from PHL?

Personally, I believe American Airlines should finally stop being stubborn and pay the small amount of money the TWA Workers at TLV are demanding.

If that happens American Airlines can open up a MIA-TLV route and Israelis will have a great selection of Latin American destinations open to them automatically.

I am not sure if International Passengers at MIA need to clear customs in the USA if there final destination leaves from the same terminal.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6207 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6600 times:

Regardless of were your final destination is you need to clear customs and immigrations upon entering the US. Even if you are just transiting through the country.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8288 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6512 times:
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Continental made Tel Aviv one of its flagship routes with double daily 777's. New York and Los Angeles are the two biggest Jewish populations centers in the USA, New York is well served to Israel & LAX doesn't make sense for a US airline as El AL already has nonstops to TLV already.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 8):
If that happens American Airlines can open up a MIA-TLV route and Israelis will have a great selection of Latin American destinations open to them automatically.

Could this debt to old TWA emplyees be discharged by the Chapter 11 BK of AA ?


User currently offlineLHLX From Israel, joined Nov 2011, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6491 times:

Assuming that AA's issue would be solved (i.e. what you owe and get on with it), they could send two 777 over to TLV (one from JFK and one from MIA) and make tons of dinero....

User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6491 times:

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
, and seeing that MOST US - Israel routes are profitable, do




Not sure this is true for most US-Israel routes


User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6449 times:

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 8):

Personally, I believe American Airlines should finally stop being stubborn and pay the small amount of money the TWA Workers at TLV are demanding.

If that happens American Airlines can open up a MIA-TLV route and Israelis will have a great selection of Latin American destinations open to them automatically.

I am not sure if International Passengers at MIA need to clear customs in the USA if there final destination leaves from the same terminal.


Great point! AA is desperate for a TLV route. All the majors besides them already have it. I see a JFK-TLV route being more of a success than MIA-TLV. I feel most TLV routes are only successful from the NYC area. I don't see UA adding ORD-TLV because they are set with EWR-TLV 2x daily.



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6358 times:

JFK-TLV could work for AA, but their 777s are not dense enough to properly serve the market. First and business class yields to/from TLV are traditionally very low.

I don't see UA being successful on IAD or ORD - TLV. EWR allows UA to concentrate all of its system-wide traffic and this coupled with the enormous local market can help keep yields high year-round. Same with DL at JFK. Once JFK-TLV came online for DL (particularly after the upgauge to a 744), it cannibalized ATL-TLV immensely, eventually leading to the route's cancellation. If DL can't make ATL-TLV work, I'm skeptical UA can make IAD or ORD work.



We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

I think it's only a matter of time before IAD-TLV is started with 2 class 763s or 777s.

There are some sources that say that UA was looking to operate SFO-TLV with CO metal, but that never panned out (for obvious reasons.)



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2167 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
I think it's only a matter of time before IAD-TLV is started with 2 class 763s or 777s.

  

Re MIATLV I remember in the mid to late 70's the original National was looking hard at that route....other events (frank lorenzo) changed that. El Al ran it via Montreal for years.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6124 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Could this debt to old TWA emplyees be discharged by the Chapter 11 BK of AA ?

This link http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3397 has the phrase "These filings have no direct legal impact on American's operations outside the United States." So does that maybe mean no effect on old TWA debt?


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2575 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6098 times:

Probably seasonal (summer and Xmas/New Year, not that sure if for Jewish holy days too) ORD-TLV and IAD-TLV a couple of times per week each might work. Rest of the year UA/CO is fine with EWR-TLV double daily.
Worth to mention, for seasonal ORD/IAD-TLV aircraft from U.S.-South America could be used as the demand is lower when is northern hemisphere's summer.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2018 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

This topic comes up every so often, and it has been discussed to death.There seems to be a lot of interest in TLV flights. CO seems very content with the 2x daily EWR flights. I am sure it has a great mix of connecting traffic with strong local traffic. The opening of another gateway would diminish the route from EWR. Yes, they might open another gateway to TLV in the future, but that point could be anytime in our lifetime. USA-TLV market seems very focused on the NYC area.

I agree DL really hurt themselves to TLV by not focusing on JFK from the very beginning, and messing around with ATL-TLV which failed in the end.

I think LY still flies to LAX but no longer to MIA or ORD IIRC.


User currently offlinechicawgo From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 14):
Same with DL at JFK. Once JFK-TLV came online for DL (particularly after the upgauge to a 744), it cannibalized ATL-TLV immensely, eventually leading to the route's cancellation. If DL can't make ATL-TLV work, I'm skeptical UA can make IAD or ORD work.

You can't use ATL as an example of how IAD, MIA, or ORD would perform. Chicago metro, Miami metro, and Wash/Balt metro have enormously larger number of Jewish population which inherently creates much more O&D traffic on both sides. That's not to mention the potential gov't travel from IAD and business travel from all. Israel is quickly growing as a business center and don't forget that Chicago is the 4th largest city economy in the world.


User currently offlinekhpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5813 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
I think LY still flies to LAX but no longer to MIA or ORD IIRC.

Correct.

As for IAD, IMO it is too close to EWR and since UA/CO already has the customer base in the area and the hub to allow for connections, I cant see IAD-TLV working...
In terms of ORD, the opportunities for for connection are vast, there is a good market, but as stated, TLV is well served from the U.S and I think that this route could only work as a seasonal one.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 8):
Personally, I believe American Airlines should finally stop being stubborn and pay the small amount of money the TWA Workers at TLV are demanding.

jfk787nyc i couldnt agree more. I think the MIA-TLV route would be hugely successful maybe AA could work something out during restructuring   


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5774 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
I agree DL really hurt themselves to TLV by not focusing on JFK from the very beginning, and messing around with ATL-TLV which failed in the end.

I'm guessing that you're talking about the latest foray of DL, JFK-TLV and not the total history. DL took over the PA route, JFK-Paris-TLV in '91 and it was only dropped because many of the pax were PanAm FF members, redeeming their miles. Apparently TLV was a hotbed of FF activity. The second foray was JFK-TLV, but was dropped shortly after 9/11, IIRC. The latest try at the route had both ATL-TLV and JFK-TLV, until the ATL route was dropped.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5732 times:
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Quoting LHLX (Reply 7):
How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?

South Florida (MIA, FLL, PBI) has a huge israeli and even bigger Jewish community.
Could UA channel some of that Israel traffic through IAD? Also, I am sure Washington, Baltimore etc have very big communities.

They do. DL offered lots of connecting opportunities via ATL from all their Florida destinations, and the route still go the axe. I have wondered ever since DL placed the 744 on JFK-TLV, if it hurt ATL-TLV or was ATL mainly booked with those going on tours etc., versus high yield J traffic?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Continental made Tel Aviv one of its flagship routes with double daily 777's. New York and Los Angeles are the two biggest Jewish populations centers in the USA, New York is well served to Israel & LAX doesn't make sense for a US airline as El AL already has nonstops to TLV already.

How does LY do out of LAX these days? I believe they fly the route 4X a week. Because of the long duration of this trip, is it safe to say, they do well in F & J with full fare, paying passengers?

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):

Great point! AA is desperate for a TLV route. All the majors besides them already have it. I see a JFK-TLV route being more of a success than MIA-TLV. I feel most TLV routes are only successful from the NYC area. I don't see UA adding ORD-TLV because they are set with EWR-TLV 2x daily.
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
There are some sources that say that UA was looking to operate SFO-TLV with CO metal, but that never panned out (for obvious reasons.)

Is there enough transfer traffic or demand for UA to add SFO-TLV service, like 3X a week? If the 77E is too much capacity, the 787 would be a great fit for this route if they were to ever start it.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):

I think LY still flies to LAX but no longer to MIA or ORD IIRC.

klwright69, LY has flown to LAX for years and when they stopped the 762 service via YYZ, it went nonstop with the 77E.


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2018 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5601 times:

It appears the USA-TLV market is not that large really. TLV really only works from a couple of markets.

User currently offlinephllax From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5512 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
LAX doesn't make sense for a US airline as El AL already has nonstops to TLV already.

Interestingly enough both the US Airways flight and Continental 90/91 originate and terminate in LAX.


User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5529 times:

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 21):

You can't use ATL as an example of how IAD, MIA, or ORD would perform. Chicago metro, Miami metro, and Wash/Balt metro have enormously larger number of Jewish population which inherently creates much more O&D traffic on both sides. That's not to mention the potential gov't travel from IAD and business travel from all. Israel is quickly growing as a business center and don't forget that Chicago is the 4th largest city economy in the world.

Sure you can (market-PDEW):

ORDTLV - 65
WASTLV - 50
ATLTLV - 40

In the grand scheme of things, local markets are not that different. Plus ATL has the best connections to Florida (~120 PDEW). WAS's top flow points would be the exact same as EWRTLV and I bet UA already does quite well with WASTLV market share. Therefore incremental revenue would be minimal and only include the spill from the current EWRTLV flights. Same thing for ORDTLV. What other large, unique markets would WAS or ORD provide that cannot already flow onestop via EWR?

Additionally, business travel, while it is growing, is not the reason US-TLV nonstops exist. FC fares are notoriously low yielding.



We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2165 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
As for IAD, IMO it is too close to EWR and since UA/CO already has the customer base in the area and the hub to allow for connections, I cant see IAD-TLV working...

PHL is even closer to EWR, and US within the same alliance as UA/CO, yet US has flown PHLTLV for a number of years and is still with us today.

If anything, I believe IAD has a very compelling reason given the govt. traffic. However, debatable whether ORD, IAD and EWR could all do TLV simulataneously. I think that is a bit too much.

Things may undoubtedly change when and if LY chooses to join an alliance.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlinechicawgo From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 27):
Sure you can (market-PDEW):

ORDTLV - 65
WASTLV - 50
ATLTLV - 40

I don't have access to this kind of info so I can't really comment further. But I will say that something doesn't seem right about that to me. I assume this does not include any connecting traffic? There are an estimated 265,000 Jews in the Chicago metro area and an estimated 125,000 in Atlanta metro. That's not to mention the many more Israeli's in Chicago as well. And if you'd like the data for this I can post.

Especially since you're saying that US-TLV is generally low yield pax, that makes the size of respective Jewish populations even more important since the majority of "leisure" travelers to Israel are Jewish.


User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 592 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 24):
How does LY do out of LAX these days? I believe they fly the route 4X a week. Because of the long duration of this trip, is it safe to say, they do well in F & J with full fare, paying passengers?

Is there enough transfer traffic or demand for UA to add SFO-TLV service, like 3X a week? If the 77E is too much capacity, the 787 would be a great fit for this route if they were to ever start it.

I can see UA using 762s to serve such TLV markets. IAD, ORD, LAX, or SFO traffic should be able to fill a 762. They still have eight of them left, and current 762 routes to Europe and S. America are about to be upgraded to 763, 764 or 772 service. UA will then have 762s to spare, unless they sell them to Omni.  

Maybe a 762 on LAX- or SFO-TLV would work out fine. But, given the length of those trips, UA would have to upgrade the old J-class to the new standard, recently unveiled for the 764. But plans to upgrade the 762 fleet have been on again, off again.


25 gigneil : It does not. PDEW are originating and terminating passengers in the city pair. NS
26 gigneil : It would have to be extremely high yield. The 762s are used to capture premium traffic or fly high yielding routes in times that the 752 can't fly it
27 2travel2know2 : Because flying time, TLV from all those airports need 2 planes, if UA was to consider dally flights. Given the availability of UA/CO B767-200ER, best
28 jmc1975 : Actually the numbers seem to add up fine. Sure, metro Chicago's Jewish population is slightly more than twice that of metro Atlanta. However, Atlanta
29 boilerla : I can see them doing what they did with the MAN and DUB flights--moving one frequency from EWR to IAD. I don't see ORD happening though for a while Mi
30 klwright69 : One thing to consider is that it seems airlines these days are becoming very selective about launching new long haul flights. It seems in today's econ
31 mah4546 : Just South Florida is 120 PDEW. The entire state is more than that.
32 RWA380 : Agreed, as has been stated in previous threads, the 787 will do much for many cities as carriers strive to add new services on otherwise unoperated r
33 Schweigend : Old CO must have at least considered the idea of IAH-TLV, and then rejected it as untenable. ORD-TLV, and especially LAX- and SFO-TLV, however, could
34 LHLX : 762s do not have the range to fly from the West Coast to TLV. ORD-TLV was flown by LY in the past (I am not sure whether this was nonstop or always vi
35 laca773 : In some ways, this could work in UAs favor since LY doesn't have any new generation a/c ordered at this time ( if I'm wrong please advise.). They won'
36 jfk787nyc : LY -- There route to MIA was successful but it could not use a 762 - LY representatives advised that as soon as their is a suitable airplane they wil
37 klwright69 : I certainly agree TLV is a good market from the USA. But it must be a very concentrated market since attempts to expand service to other American gat
38 Post contains images gigneil : You can't go from what you have to that. first off. The plane is tiny. Second off, TLV is just not a premium route. If anything a 2 class bird would
39 chicawgo : LY flew ORD-TLV for MANY MANY MANY years. I don't know every single which way they did it but I know they did nonstop to TLV for a while and in the l
40 jmc1975 : You are correct. Again, correct. The lack of success DL had @ ATL should not be a primary indicator as to how IAD or ORD might perform.
41 usairways85 : At this time there is no plan to reconfigure these birds and chances are they will leave the fleet in 1-2 years once all of the 763/764//772/744 mods
42 capitalflyer : Some on this board have posited that UA may move more connecting traffic to IAD as it has huge capacity and is not slot controlled, leaving EWR to co
43 Tdan : With a nonstop in place, ORD-TLV probably increases to 80 PDEW. My point is that the local traffic is not terribly different (especially when adjusti
44 washingtonian : Here's a question for everyone. Do United and Lufthansa split all revenues from the North Atlantic? So if a passengers books IAD-FRA-TLV, do they shar
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