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DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA  
User currently offlineNorwegian737 From Norway, joined Mar 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18709 times:

A while ago I read that Delta Air Lines are to take over Air France's flights between Chicago and Paris. And then I also read that Delta will be taking over Air France's flights between Seattle and Paris from March 2012. Why is this? They're both airline partners in SkyTeam, so what's the difference if Delta flies passengers from Paris to Chicago or Seattle, instead of Air France?

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18528 times:

Quoting Norwegian737 (Thread starter):
Quoting Norwegian737 (Thread starter):
A while ago I read that Delta Air Lines are to take over Air France's flights between Chicago and Paris. And then I also read that Delta will be taking over Air France's flights between Seattle and Paris from March 2012. Why is this? They're both airline partners in SkyTeam, so what's the difference if Delta flies passengers from Paris to Chicago or Seattle, instead of Air France?


In short, there is no difference between either AF or DL flying a transatlantic flight since they have joint venture for all trans-atlantic flights where they share in any profits or expenses.Doesn't make any difference who the aircraft actually belongs to. Same as LH or UA to Frankfort or AA and BA to London


User currently offlineNorwegian737 From Norway, joined Mar 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18497 times:

OK, that makes sense, but why do they even bother doing this then, when AF is already flying these routes?

User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18467 times:

Quoting Norwegian737 (Reply 2):
OK, that makes sense, but why do they even bother doing this then, when AF is already flying these routes?

probably because delta has lower operating costs = more profit to be shared?


User currently offlinepetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18432 times:
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But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.

User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18335 times:

The Delta service has improved of late.

You may also find that DL has aircraft more suited to the route profile and optimal departure timing.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18330 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):
Doesn't make any difference who the aircraft actually belongs to.

Except of course for onboard servece that could be hugely different.


User currently offlineNorwegian737 From Norway, joined Mar 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18282 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):

Yeah, if that's the case, then it makes perfect sense that DL takes over these flights. More profit = more to share.
Are there other flights like this, other than ORD and SEA, where DL will take over for AF?

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):

That's true...
Based on my experience, DL is not the worst (not as bad as my experiences with trans-Atlantic flights with UA), but still not as good as KL or other European airlines. I guess if they still make more money doing it this way, that's more important than seat comfort and services on board...


User currently offlineicarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 18084 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 6):
Except of course for onboard servece that could be hugely different.

Last July, because of an AF strike (maintenance people), my flight to ATL from CDG has been done by DL.

I was originally booked with AF in Premium Economy and I ended up in Economy, exit row.

I can say that the service with DL flight attendant was absolutely stunning and I experienced the same on an ATL-LAX flight!

In many ways, DL was far more better than AF!!!!



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1841 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 18085 times:

ORD : AF metal is back on the route from end march.
You have also examples of DL flights which went to AF : DL dropped all CDG-JFK flights for quite a while (now they are back with one daily flight). DTW was transferred to AF (DL will operate a 2nd daily seasonal flight next summer).

This being said, I don't like also to see AF replaced by DL and it will be the case until they finally retrofit their crappy 763 they have to CDG and until they continue to serve horrible food and wine in Y (for the wine, I'm referring to these 1L carton bottle of wine they use - what a shame !!! ).


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7563 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17862 times:

Within the agreement of the Joint Venture, there are many complex requirements regarding the balance of ASMs between the carriers.

With the reduction in DL flights into secondary European markets this winter, plus AF adding larger aircraft like the A380, some flights needed to shift to DL in order to keep the ASMs within balance between the carriers.

This is a very simplistic view of why they shift.

There are reasons such as financially, operational, and marketing reasons why they may shift to get the most appropriate aircraft on a given route.


User currently offlineNorwegian737 From Norway, joined Mar 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17834 times:

I have never flown Air France on intercontinental flights, so I can't really say much about it. I have, however, flown both Delta and United, as well as some European carriers, on trans-Atlantic flights, and overall I must say that service and comfort onboard has been significantly better on the European carriers than the American ones. Which is kind of interesting, as there are so many operators and flights on the trans-Atlantic flights, that you would think that the different companies would keep up the competition by offering service and comfort on a competitive level, in order to get passengers. Maybe that's why many European carriers have bigger airplanes on their US routes, than American carriers have on the Europe routes?

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39851 posts, RR: 74
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17735 times:

So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinegeorgiaame From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 976 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17628 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.
Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):
The Delta service has improved of late.

I don't think there is any question about either statement. Delta's business elite service, in MHO is unquestionably and dramatically improved of late, and I think is actually better than that of KLM. It's very subjective. Delta's wine selection in BE is much better than either KLM or AF, but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service. Service and food up front on AF is very superior to both, and food/champagne in cattle class is also significantly better than what you would get on Delta, free flowing until gone. I have no opinion regarding a comparison with KLM.

As for on the ground: Hartsfield Airport is a delight to use at every level. CDG is beautiful to look at, and a horror to use. Schiphol today isn't the Schiphol of 20 years ago. Actually, it is, only bigger, and and more difficult to navigate. It works, but it isn't Hartsfield. New York/JFK is probably worse than Crotone, Italy, and marginally better than Novosibirsk in Siberia. Best avoided whenever possible.

And then there are the ticket prices. Code shares on any of them tend to be significantly lower flying the other guy's metal. I'm doing a mileage run next weekend. AZ e-ticket, $830 RT, ATL-FCO-LHR-AMS-ATL. Delta metal NS to Rome, AZ metal into London, KLM metal LHR-AMS-ATL. Delta wanted about $1300 for the run, AF $1600, KLM about $1400, booked via Orbitz. I'm flying for the miles, not the comfort level. I took the cheapest venue.

My bottom line: I love AF service, front or back, but I'm not enthralled by their prices or CDG transit. I hope they do not disappear from Atlanta (not likely - they usually fly in from CDG with 777 or 747 service, packed). If it's a choice between AF or DL, all else being equal, it's a no-brainer: AF.



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17586 times:
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Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
The Delta service has improved of late.

You may also find that DL has aircraft more suited to the route profile and optimal departure timing.

I don't think so. Brand new A380 service at IAD and JFK will be replaced with tatty, 20-year-old former NWA 744s ?

At least at IAD -- known as Air France's most profitable US station -- watch as the passengers -- me among them -- fly the coup.   


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17064 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17588 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.

Nope, it is stated on their website, at least on flights I have looked at.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineb6a322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17389 times:

I think another thing to keep in mind is the onboard product - if I'm not mistaken, and depending on what kind of metal they're using, DL has a full flat bed in BizElite, whereas AF does not. True, AF has an F product, but I've been on a fairly large number of flights to and from europe (not just on AF) where First class runs empty or only 1-2 seats occupied - and it might make more sense to place these aircraft where there is a higher F demand.


The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39851 posts, RR: 74
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17272 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Nope, it is stated on their website, at least on flights I have looked at.

  
"Nope"
So you're saying that Air France does NOT mention if the flight is carried by Delta?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7563 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17255 times:

Again, they are doing this to rebalance the operating share between DL-KLM-AF.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.

The website clearly lists the operating carrier when a flight is purchased. In the event the flight changes and is being operated by a different carrier, the passenger will be contacted (assuming they have contact info on file email/phone) and informed of the change. It will also appear on their intererary when they log-in.

The passenger has the right to a change or refund, should they not want to fly on a given carrier. This is true whether it is a change in airline or even a Delta Connection partner. They simply have to ask to do so even if not initially offered the change. In reality the majority of passenger will accept the change and just go on their way.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 13):
I don't think there is any question about either statement. Delta's business elite service, in MHO is unquestionably and dramatically improved of late, and I think is actually better than that of KLM. It's very subjective. Delta's wine selection in BE is much better than either KLM or AF, but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service. Service and food up front on AF is very superior to both, and food/champagne in cattle class is also significantly better than what you would get on Delta, free flowing until gone. I have no opinion regarding a comparison with KLM.

The difference in onboard product is highly subjective, and both carriers are making an effort to close the gap.

They aren't dumb either, they will put the most appropriate aircraft on a given route. Hence why you see, and will continue to see the AF A380 on JFK, or why DL is putting a 763ER on ORD. Matching capacity to demand and putting a competitive product where it is appropriate.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
I don't think so. Brand new A380 service at IAD and JFK will be replaced with tatty, 20-year-old former NWA 744s ?

Then next year the 744 will have brand new interiors and be on par with everyone else.

DL isn't putting 744s into JFK-CDG anyways.

NW & KLM swapped routes for years under their JV, what DL-AF/KLM are doing is nothing new. It is part of the benefit to customers to have more options and a much more integrated experience when traveling between the US and Europe, including connections to domestic flights.


User currently offlineicarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17185 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta?

Yes. The flight operator and aircraft type is detailed in the flight details on AF website at least.



Flying is amazing!
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10392 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 17104 times:

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 19):
Yes. The flight operator and aircraft type is detailed in the flight details on AF website at least.

As it is on Delta.com



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17064 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 17090 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):


"Nope"
So you're saying that Air France does NOT mention if the flight is carried by Delta?

Oops, misread your post. They do list if it is operated by another carrier.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39851 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 17024 times:

Thanks for the info everyone.
Yes I know most people wouldn't care but many of us airline buffs do care about that kind of stuff.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2178 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 14708 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 9):
DTW was transferred to AF (DL will operate a 2nd daily seasonal flight next summer).

I actually don't recall DL ever operating DTW-CDG. Maybe AF came in when NW stepped out, but that was before the NW-DL merger, and if I'm not mistaken, before the joint venture. It actually surprises me why AF is the one flying the route now, but hey, I'm taking advantage of it (AF + not a 777!) as much as possible over MSP-CDG DL 767 service, my other SkyTeam option across the Pond for my occasional travels to Paris or beyond.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.

It depends what you're comparing. Food: AF is better, but DL beats KL without a doubt, unless KL improved since 2009. Seating: AF seats are generally better, IFE is great, DL's and KL's IFE is so-so, however, things change with AF + 777 (& 744 per lack of PTV). And DL has much of their fleet still PTV-less. Oh, and all of this is very subjective anyway.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.

yes both AF and DL websites are very clear about it. if the flight # has 4 digits, it is operated by the partner, if it has 2 or 3 digits, it is operated by the actual airline to whom you buy the flight (with perhaps, exceptions?). Changes have usually been announced months in advance (SEA and ORD switching next March, etc...), so for most people's bookings, there won't be any changes. Unless AF swaps your A380 for a 777 at the last minute.  
Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):
probably because delta has lower operating costs = more profit to be shared?

Right, I assume some of it has to do with the unbalanced euro/$ exchange rate, and also that AF can fly their metal to much more lucrative destinations than the USA right now, which, with a few exceptions, are loss-making routes at the moment. Plus probably some painful restructuring in the past during ch. 11.
Also, important to note that DL has swarms of 767s and 757s for the thin routes and/or those where little cargo is carried, while AF's smallest machine is the A330-200, fitted in a quite low density configuration, to add to the problem of the struggling J market. And I think CDG is 767 and 757 only for DL, except for ATL if I'm correct. Also, ATL has always been a split between DL and AF, which has always surprised me.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently onlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4008 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 14709 times:
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Quoting georgiaame (Reply 13):
I don't think there is any question about either statement. Delta's business elite service, in MHO is unquestionably and dramatically improved of late, and I think is actually better than that of KLM. It's very subjective. Delta's wine selection in BE is much better than either KLM or AF, but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service. Service and food up front on AF is very superior to both, and food/champagne in cattle class is also significantly better than what you would get on Delta, free flowing until gone. I have no opinion regarding a comparison with KLM.

I believe DL is making a huge effort to improve the soft product even in Y. Hats off to DL for making the effort and spending the money to modernize their cabins hard product beyond the majority of their US competition.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):

I don't think so. Brand new A380 service at IAD and JFK will be replaced with tatty, 20-year-old former NWA 744s ?

At least at IAD -- known as Air France's most profitable US station -- watch as the passengers -- me among them -- fly the coup.

What? Why would DL take over AF's most profitable US station? This statement makes no sense what so ever, kgaiflyer.


25 PSU.DTW.SCE : That is the key advantage of such. They can utilize DL's smaller metal on thinner routes that do not need large J cabins and/or are a better capacity
26 Post contains images chopchop767 : I would venture to say that all of the US airlines have made efforts to bring their in flight Y product up to the standards of their Euro partners; n
27 kgaiflyer : It makes no sense to me either -- yet, that's what the fanboys are insisting. Why would you deliberately drive clients away in what is essentially so
28 Av8rDAL : Not in the back. I had a horrid experience on AF in Y, CDG-YUL, last December. I would have much rather flown DL home to ATL, but I had to stop in Mo
29 MaranoERAU : Why hasn't DL picked up the EWR-CDG flight yet. AF is pulling out as of March. The flight was always heavy, so why let the slot go. They can put a 763
30 Post contains images kgaiflyer : True, if you speak no french at all, don't enjoy world beat music, and always see the latest movies as soon as they are released -- then there's not
31 NASCARAirforce : DAL I don't believe ever operated DTW-CDG. Since NWA was also Skyteam before the Delta takeover, Air France took over for NWA on the DTW-CDG service.
32 Viscount724 : Not on AF's 777s with cramped 10-abreast Y seating. All US (and Canadian) 777 operators, including DL, are 9-abreast.
33 carls : As a passanger I consider AF and KLM an step below Lufthansa, Swiss, BA. I would put the among Iberia, Alitalia, TAP etc. AF groupe is much more bigg
34 RobertS975 : The DL 767-300s are being upgraded to this slowly but surely. But right now, most DL 767-300s are not full flat in BizElite. All 767-400s are convert
35 timpdx : I flew Delta SEA-AMS last summer and it was, indeed, a very decent product on the A332, even in the back of the plane. I dare say even a step above my
36 milesrich : When ATL's new International Terminal Opens, then it might be a delight to use, but while departing ATL is a delight, arriving their internationally
37 rjm777ual : Does anybody know if they will take over the KIAD-LFPG flight? I really want the A380 to stay at Dulles.
38 Braniff747SP : Cant read the whole thread now, but what will happen to the Tahiti service?
39 gigneil : I'm sorry, I don't find that it really is. Other than free flowing wine, which isn't really that free flowing, I've found AF to be very very comparab
40 N62NA : Anybody?
41 laca773 : I don't see AF-KL/DL allowing EWR-CDG to close for ST. Not ever. If AF isn't going to operate the route this coming Summer, DL will for sure pick it
42 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : That is a very subjective statement and you will see, even in this thread, that opinions will vary on our sister across the pond vs. Mother D. I tell
43 JAAlbert : The code sharing drives me crazy. When I book on AF, it's because I want to try the AF experience. When I book DL, its because I want DL, not KLM or
44 Norwegian737 : Thanks for all the replies so far! It's an interesting debate going on! It seems like Delta and Air France has a very close co-operation, and therefor
45 FlyASAGuy2005 : It also helps that DL has had a long and storied relationship with AF, long ATI/JV and likewise with NW and KLM. It was a perfect marriage of sorts..
46 BoeingGuy : I remember that pre-merger, while NW had a very poor reputation for their domestic product, their international product was considered pretty good. I
47 Post contains images laca773 : Thanks for the explanation, FlyASAGuy2005. This makes sense now. Leaned something new today .
48 cokepopper : I don't see AF-KL/DL allowing EWR-CDG to close for ST. Not ever. If AF isn't going to operate the route this coming Summer, DL will for sure pick it
49 par13del : The issue from the airline perspective is the amount of profit to be made, if the majority of pax on these flight originate in the US they in general
50 FlyASAGuy2005 : It's not really that simple but *Kanye shrug*
51 nwaesc : I had to look that up... Gawd, I'm getting old. lol.
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