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737 Max To Be Built In Renton  
User currently offlineadipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14940 times:

From Flightblogger:

Just breaking now, the Seattle Times reports that the IAM and Boeing have reached a sweeping deal to place the 737 Max final assembly line in Renton, having secured a new four-year contract as well as a settlement of the National Labor Relations Board complaint against the company's second 787 final assembly line in Charleston.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...895323_boeingmax01.html?cmpid=2727

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reaking-737-max-to-be-built-i.html

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:42:46]

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:43:59]

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:45:21]


707 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 752 753 762 763 764 D9S D10 319 320 321 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14904 times:
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I have to admit that I hadn't realised they were even considering building it elsewhere. Nice to see production stay in the 737's birthplace.


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineYchocky From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14880 times:

Four year contract?

Will they be building the 737 MAX by then?


User currently onlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14581 times:

Quoting Ychocky (Reply 2):
Four year contract?

Will they be building the 737 MAX by then?

Yes they'll just be starting production.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2623 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14481 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
es they'll just be starting production.

You mean, that's when they plan to start production.
What Boeing plans and what happens hasn't exactly been similar of late!

[Edited 2011-11-30 11:35:57]


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User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14394 times:

I don't want to sound like I'm overly simplifying this, but this is probably one of the best pieces of news for Boeing all year. And I'm not talking about MAX production or the possible settlement of the NLRB case.

Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary! This avoids any last-minute bickering, in-fighting or tension. It grants more long-term planning by both Boeing and it's workforce. And most importantly, it provides one very crucial thing for whats shaping up to be a very busy 2012 - stability.

Congrats to both Boeing and the IAM. And ultimately, the biggest beneficiary - their customers!

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4993 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14359 times:

Just to be correct, this is not set in stone yet. It of course is a tentative agreement between Boeing and the Union. It is dependent on the ratification of the contract. If the members do not accept this, then it would be the first time in my pro union history that I would call them dumb. It is not a bad contract at all. 2% GWI for each year, 2-4% bonus potential, $5,000 signing bonus, and the 737 Max commitment by Boeing.

However, we must not jump the gun. Many of the members are still pissed at Boeing for the last strike, and Boeing did not play fair with the 787 Charleston gimmick. I doubt the membership will vote no to the contract, but we have seen crazier things these days.

Edit! Thought I would add one more tidbit. The Machinists Union told the members a few contracts back to accept the contract offer. Guess what? The membership voted no to the contract, and went on strike a few days later. Not even the union can convince their members. But, again, I am sure the membership will vote in favor of this contract. There are no takeaways, and it looks good to me!  Smile

[Edited 2011-11-30 11:49:01]


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User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12885 posts, RR: 100
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14228 times:
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Quoting adipasqu (Thread starter):
well as a settlement of the National Labor Relations Board complaint against the company's second 787 final assembly line in Charleston.

Wow. I understand why Boeing wouldn't sign a new contract until that was resolved. Why leave that hanging? I'm surprised the union dropped their demands for the proposed contract. Perhaps sanity ruled today...

It is good to have this issue resolved. It will certainly help with 787 production.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
I have to admit that I hadn't realised they were even considering building it elsewhere.

Boeing had to shop around. If the current contract had expired and there was a strike it would have crippled 737MAX sales.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary!

It is. I hope it is ratified. I would have been happier to see a longer term agreement into 737MAX production.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14230 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):

I have to admit that I hadn't realised they were even considering building it elsewhere. Nice to see production stay in the 737's birthplace.

Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field. Production was moved over to Renton only when there was enough space between the 727 & 707/720 lines.

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):

You mean, that's when they plan to start production.
What Boeing plans and what happens hasn't exactly been similar of late!

I don't think there's much to worry about this time. The 73MAX is not a brand new AC, does not require brand new assembly methods & practices, and above all, is not even close to as much at the mercy of suppliers & their issues as the 787 was/is. I'm not saying there will be no snags, but with as little "new ground" being broken here, it's unlikely that there will be anything like the problems the 787 had.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12386 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13921 times:
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TBH, this doesn't come as much of a surprise. The cost of building a new production line would have probably blown a business case that, not that long ago, Boeing was struggling to justify.


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5312 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13820 times:

APA and AA pilots: Look and learn. This is how a union and a company can benefit each other.

Great news all around.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13735 times:
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Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field.

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that. That's one thing that is really great about this site, there is always someone who is able to shed a new light on almost any subject.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1258 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13646 times:

Sounds like a win/win for both parties. Hopefully the membership is in agreement and everyone involved can move on to a more predictable and rewarding future.

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5405 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13468 times:

This is, among other things, a result of Boeing building the 787 line in SC. The best deal for Boeing was always to keep 737 production in Renton but they've shown they will move production if they feel it's in their best long term interest.

The NLRB action was silly and would have gone nowhere.

Boeing made an offer they couldn't refuse...and they wisely took it. Smart move for everybody.



What the...?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13419 times:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary! This avoids any last-minute bickering, in-fighting or tension. It grants more long-term planning by both Boeing and it's workforce.

It is great to see them reaching agreements well before deadlines. A welcome change.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
Congrats to both Boeing and the IAM. And ultimately, the biggest beneficiary - their customers!

With all respect, I think the company, owners and labor are the biggest beneficiaries.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Boeing had to shop around. If the current contract had expired and there was a strike it would have crippled 737MAX sales.

I don't think so. You already need to wait multiple years before delivery. Everyone expects strikes to be short lived in that context so the delay would be an irritation but having to wait years for delivery is already more so.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13346 times:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
I don't want to sound like I'm overly simplifying this, but this is probably one of the best pieces of news for Boeing all year. And I'm not talking about MAX production or the possible settlement of the NLRB case.

Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary!

I see this as the union knowing that Boeing in the past has and would open another line somewhere else in a right to work state in order to firm up production capacity. But, that said.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Boeing had to shop around. If the current contract had expired and there was a strike it would have crippled 737MAX sales.

If I was a Boeing customer for the MAX, I'd want to know that there wouldn't be any labor disruptions that could lead to delays. Even if Boeing moved production it could be perceived by their current and future customers as a potential delay in delivering orders. That's not to say that Boeing didn't consider moving some production elsewhere, but both sides benefit by this agreement.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13311 times:

Also confirmed in this article is that the 737 production will be reaching 42 a/c a month in Q1 2014. IIRC, up till now, it was only talk/studies of increasing the production rate north of 40 a/c. At least i havent seen anything that confirmed a production increase.


Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24823 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13256 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field.

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that. That's one thing that is really great about this site, there is always someone who is able to shed a new light on almost any subject.

If memory correct, the first 271 737s were built at BFI.


User currently offlineTrijetsonly From Germany, joined Jul 2009, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12819 times:

Why do you call this breaking news at all?
I don't know anyone who expected the MAX to be built elsewhere than in Renton.


User currently onlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3384 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12789 times:
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Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field. Production was moved over to Renton only when there was enough space between the 727 & 707/720 lines.



The 737 never shared the 707/720 FAL building, it moved to Renton after the 4-81/-82 build was built.. 727 went in one building and 737 the other...


User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12421 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Boeing made an offer they couldn't refuse

They would have been stupid to have refused it. Nice to see the IAM playing by Boeing's rules for once. And now that the S.C. line issue is resolved, I'm sure Boeing execs will keep their sewers in check going forward. In the meantime, the IAM, in its unbridled greed, has let the camel's nose into the tent by letting the situation get so bad that Boeing now has a manufacturing facility outside of Washington. The MAX may well be the last pure Washington gravy train these guys feed off of so they might as well enjoy it while it lasts.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12009 times:

The Boeing/IAM contract extension, once approved by the rank and file, will be to September 2016.

I don't know if the job security portion of the contract actually puts the FAL in Renton. It says the 'manufactuering' of the MAX will be in the 'Puget Sound area'. The City of Renton is not mentioned.

Another portion of that same section garuntees the 'production' of the WBs in Everett.


User currently offlinegegtim From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11796 times:

We had actually bid for the 737 Max plant here in Spokane and was #2 to Renton. It would have still kept Boeing production in Washington State.

http://www.khq.com/story/16156315/bo...-rejects-spokane-bid-for-new-plant


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30564 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11698 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
TBH, this doesn't come as much of a surprise. The cost of building a new production line would have probably blown a business case that, not that long ago, Boeing was struggling to justify.

With the volume of not just the 737MAX but the NSA (which would surely have been built at the same factory), I am of the opinion that the capital costs of the line would have had little impact on the decision to put the factory somewhere else.



I echo the sentiments of those who have lauded Boeing and IAM management for forging this new agreement and I hope the IAM rank and file choose to ratify it. And here is hoping it's the start of better overall management and labor relations going forward.


User currently offlinegegtim From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11453 times:

I can only relate to unions in my own experiences with the ground handlers at GEG. If I walked into NWA ops during break time and the only person there was "busy" reading the newspaper I had better choose death than ask him a question. If a FBO fueler wanted to put balast fuel on a United 727 and needed someone to put power on the a/c, the response might be "It isn't my airplane."

25 steffenbn : Because Airbus as spot-on every time?? -Steffen Nielsen
26 adh214 : They agreed to build the 737max in Renton but did they agree to not build it anywhere else? I kind of assumed they were considering two production sit
27 BoeingGuy : Funny the engineering union people around me frequently work late, fire up their computers on their own time at night and on weekends just in case th
28 adh214 : I answered my own question. The contract states: "The company will be produce the 737 in Renton to the extent such production can be feasibly complet
29 JoeCanuck : It's basically like the 787...full production in Washington doesn't mean no production elsewhere. The SC line didn't actually take any work away from
30 cmf : I do not know how it is at Boeing but I expect it to be the same as just about all other places where I see it happen; they still only get the same m
31 tdscanuck : If I was a Boeing customer for the last ~5 years, I'd know that labour disruptions are about the least likely and shortest potential delay that might
32 JoeCanuck : This contract still doesn't preclude additional production elsewhere. It's not out of the question that to get production up to the desired 60 per mo
33 canoecarrier : We both know Gregoire and both our US Senators future political careers hinged on Boeing keeping the MAX in Renton. As much as people in W. Washingto
34 wn700driver : Lol, no kidding. I'm fortunate in that I have A.net & my job for these things. I always thought it was pretty neat how they tend to complement on
35 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : I wouldn't really say "deep" into the -200 series, but they were certainly on their way: That's roughly what I recall as well. As for the 707 being d
36 JoeCanuck : I am more inclined to believe that any possible 'gents agreement' would cover existing operations...as in, "play nice and we won't move anything out
37 MoltenRock : Nope, you're wrong. Please provide a cite otherwise. The agreement means that the 737MAX will be built by union employees in the Puget Sound area, pe
38 Gunsontheroof : That's pretty much how I read into it as well. Nice to see everyone getting along for once. The thing is, I'm not really convinced that a "program of
39 kanban : No they didn't (see post 35), the pacing item was the new building... And when the 727 left, in came the Marine Systems Jetfoil and PHM. The KC line
40 Post contains images Drewski2112 : I've heard the first four, but I've also heard the first six. Never been able to pin the exact amount, but definitely in the low single digits. As yo
41 Gunsontheroof : Yeah, my bad. I was thinking of the E-3 line.
42 BoeingGuy : Boeing engineers get paid overtime, but full time and a half. I think it's time+$6.50. Still not bad, as most professionals don't earn overtime pay a
43 Post contains links JoeCanuck : How about the fact that the contract is only good until 2016? There is nothing in the contract that says the MAX will be built in Washington in perpe
44 garpd : I agree, but with all due respect, the same was said for the 747-8. It was still late. The reasons may be different, but late is late. Never suggeste
45 adh214 : From the contract: "With approval of the contract exten- sion, the Company will produce the 737NG models and 737MAX models in Renton, to the extent s
46 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : Probably because the contract is only good until 2016. The union isn't going to go overboard on this (wasn't it something like a ten year no-strike g
47 Post contains images kanban : thanks for the picture... nice to have a visual record RE: MAX... I know some hate it, others just tolerate it, however I think it means the the airf
48 redflyer : Inasmuch as they may value their manufacturing base in Puget, why would they not want to diversify? Most manufacturers do over time, either organical
49 Gunsontheroof : Very true, but aside from Airbus (a multi-national consortium) building planes at TLS and HAM, where's the precedent for this in commercial aviation?
50 wn700driver : It was, but not for any reason having to do with the 748 in and of itself. Rather, it was the fact that the 748 drank from the same well as the 787 d
51 redflyer : Good point. I guess I was looking at this particular issue from a general manufacturing standpoint and didn't take into consideration some of the uni
52 garpd : I agree. They had better get this one right, delivering to spec or better.
53 JoeCanuck : They never said the move had 'nothing to do' with labor actions. They said right from the start the SC plant was to ensure production continuity in c
54 kanban : I really doubt that Boeing would have left Renton had the union balked..though they might have begun looking at properties. I think the that of closi
55 JoeCanuck : Charleston was obvious but only once Boeing decided that they needed an out of Washington FAL. It was that leap which was made because Boeing wanted
56 tdscanuck : The 787 vertical fin still comes from an IAM factory in Washington...if IAM goes on strike, 787 production stops. Tom.
57 Gunsontheroof : They may as well have said it. The assessments made in the disclosed studies pretty much recommended "Everett" as clear as day. No kidding! Like I sa
58 JoeCanuck : Deliveries may stop...but production won't...there is lots that can still be done without the fin. If it even came to be that fin production was the
59 steffenbn : - I didn't wanna go the A v B on this one, but I don't think that you can only say Boeing in this equation... -Steffen
60 cmf : A lot of parts are already produced in a single factory. Interruption will halt downstream production. For a good example look at hard drive producti
61 kanban : I think some people are trapped in the blowing up the labor strike issue beyond it's actual impact when looking at Charleston and a possible 737MAX se
62 ck8msp : Doesn't this whole decision prove that the original NLRB claim was bogus? After all, if all the crimes were committed that the IAM claimed why would t
63 Post contains images planemaker : Furthermore, with NSA now pushed back to the middle of the next decade, the manufacturing process will be quite different. Certainly one would have t
64 JoeCanuck : Not every potential source of stoppages can be prevented. There is only so much one can do to stem the wrath of mother nature. That doesn't mean a co
65 kanban : No... I believe that the whole union issue being primary was perpetuated by the media and unions, when actually there were other very sound reasons t
66 cmf : And then the question becomes if spending ~1.5 BUSD and increasing per unit cost is well spent money for the little difference it makes. What are tho
67 Stitch : It still makes sense to have a FAL in CHS, even if PAE can reach 10 787s per month with their two FALs. A production rate of, say, 15 a month (5 per
68 cmf : Those are good reasons at this time. But the claim was that there were sound reasons at the time the decision to open SC was made. A different questi
69 kanban : In addition to Stitch's comments.. you have most of the fuselage coming to Charleston for integration and outfitting, if you have a FAL there as well
70 Stitch : Inability of all the suppliers to provide shipsets & engines fast enough. I believe only Spirit is at 100% capacity. I also expect that Boeing ju
71 tdscanuck : It's not all mobile. Boeing's heavy machining facilities are in Portland and Auburn. And we're talking about machine tools so large they have their o
72 planemaker : Boeing has moved heavy production and manufacturing equipment around, including from Auburn to Portland and Fredrickson (skin and spar tooling). And
73 kanban : I almost started writing a rebuttal then I got to your closer... If a new FAL was created somewhere, it will have it's own new wing line and all new
74 BoeingGuy : Let's all hope this is the beginning of a new long-term relationship between Boeing and the unions, especially the IAM. As I posted in another thread,
75 Post contains links and images planemaker : Forget about a new FAL somewhere else, to get production to 42/month (let alone 60!?!) Boeing will have to build another wing line... and it won't fi
76 kanban : I know the wing line, the holes they dug and why. Spent 1/2 of my 35 years in that plant, a good chunk in that building.. However I feel that an addi
77 m404 : I will be watching to see how the email proof that was brought out about why they wanted the 787 line in S.C. will be nullified by this agreement. An
78 JoeCanuck : I don't think anything has to be nullified. It seems to be a civil matter, not criminal. If the party allegedly harmed by the action decides to drop
79 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : A pretty legitimate concern in this part of the world. "The Big One" could really muck things up for Boeing production... I feel like I've heard rumo
80 Post contains links tdscanuck : If the wronged party says they're no longer wronged, the NLRB doesn't really have any reason to do anything further. You might be thinking of the Tho
81 Gunsontheroof : Could be. The re-engineing question re: the P-8 is an interesting one. I suspect that it probably won't happen given all the rework that already goes
82 Stitch : I would expect the 737MAX and 737NG will be able to be built on the same line. If not, the P-8 line is designed to handle commercial and military 737s
83 kanban : They can run 3 to 4 737 lines in the current buildings plus the P-8 in it's building.. that's assuming they can clear the floor of offices. The real p
84 Post contains images bikerthai : The Navy got their plane with engines that performs the mission as spec. They will not want to spend money to integrate a new engine on to a P-8 just
85 tdscanuck : They just leveled Plant 2 (the original large aircraft assembly building) this year...in theory there's plenty of room there for several new FAL's. H
86 Gunsontheroof : Pretty much what I figured, thanks for confirmation! Didn't know that, but that's probably as good a reason as any to assume the line is staying in R
87 Post contains images bikerthai : Unlikely considering potential new international customers for the P-8 will be coming on line. (India will order 12 additional). The current P-8A pro
88 Post contains links and images Stitch : Good news this morning for Boeing management and employees. Boeing Workers Approve 4 Year Contract (by BD338 Dec 7 2011 in Civil Aviation) [Edited 201
89 ER757 : Great to see that common sense and compromise won the day. Now if folks in the "other Washington" could learn from this.....but that's a discussion f
90 Post contains images seabosdca : This is the sort of thing that happens when I leave Seattle and stay away a few years. Hard to believe. Plant 2 was always a huge central landmark. I
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