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OS In Financial Trouble Again  
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12321 times:

From today's Presse:

AUA-braucht-Sparpaket_Jobabbau-und-Gehaltsverzicht?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do" target="_blank">http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft...ht?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do

Basically, they are looking for another 100m€ in cuts, and the airline is going to end the year, again, with a loss. The Euro crisis has severely hurt the airline this year along with the other crises in Japan, and the high price of oil.

They are looking for an end to the air passenger tax and further concessions from VIE and Austrocontrol. In addition, further concessions in pay will be sought from the employees.

The comments are a good laugh, I will leave them to our German readers...

What's next for AUA with it's ageing fleet and mother Lufthansa breathing down it's neck to stop losing money?

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12266 times:

How long can national pride go on? We've seen MA, OK, RO, OA all pull down long haul flying. That leaves LO and OS as the only legacies in this region with small bases trying to make long haul work. Let them feed LH, I bet LH management would love that.

User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11954 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 1):

No - you forgot VV which has a bigger network than LO.



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11451 times:

Why doesn't LH offload OS instead of BD? BD is at least based in a lucrative market whose airport slots at least will be very valuable in the future. It might be hard to make it profitable, that's true, but neither is OS. Or does it have to do with the closer proximity to Germany which effectively 'adds' Austria to LH's home market ?


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2591 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11078 times:
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Quoting KFlyer (Reply 3):
Why doesn't LH offload OS instead of BD? BD is at least based in a lucrative market whose airport slots at least will be very valuable in the future. It might be hard to make it profitable, that's true, but neither is OS. Or does it have to do with the closer proximity to Germany which effectively 'adds' Austria to LH's home market ?

I think that Vienna is a very lucrative and wealthy market, not to mention that Vienna is home to the IAEA and that its proximity to Bratislava helps a lot.


I love the Fokkers but I think that OS should make their retirement a priority. Niki has just received some Dash-8 aircrafts from Air Berlin and with more economical aircraft and lower cost structure it could really hurt Austrian.

Does anyone know if Austrian's B777s are making any money? Maybe it would be better to stick to the smaller B767s?

Austrian Airlines is a great, classy airline, it would be a shame to see it transform into just another crappy hybrid airline.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10575 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 3):
Why doesn't LH offload OS instead of BD?

Because BD is a very distant 2nd in its home market and there is no prospect of a turnaround.

There is a big difference between the clear market leader in your home hub and being No 2.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

let's see where the losses are coming in from. My guess is it's long haul.
As for the fokkers... well, that probably is what is keeping AUA's frequent flyer base happy.
The refurbished F100s look really nice inside, much nicer then getting stuck on some crap CRJ,
and AUA has a reputation for service.

I'm just not sure Vienna can support much of a long haul hub. It might be a better idea to strip it down
to flights that are profitable, plus maybe one STAR hub in Asia and one STAR hub in the US (Probably EWR).
But without figures we can't be sure of the problem. The fact that Emirates and friends are stealing pax both directly from
vienna, but also from other places like secondary cities, even now as far away as stockholm, that may have previously connected in VIE is a problem.


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10347 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
But without figures we can't be sure of the problem.

What I've read the problems were created by insufficient profit on the flights to NRT and the Middle East. I also wonder what the OS salary level is now compared to other EU airlines. They have already agreed on a 5% drop in pay after the takeover, but considering how strong the unions are in Austria - especially within federally owned companies as OS was until the LH takeover - I could imagine that level being more than 5% over what is usually paid in the rest of Europe.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10242 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 1):
Let them feed LH, I bet LH management would love that.

I always thought the best solution would be the long range ( out of Europe ) traffic out of VIE, which has enough load and yield, to be flown by LX, the rest axed.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10132 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
I always thought the best solution would be the long range ( out of Europe ) traffic out of VIE, which has enough load and yield, to be flown by LX, the rest axed.

Interesting idea because no doubt Swiss already flies to those cities anyway. So you could simply do a turn around at the outstation, head back to VIE. But those 777s are capable. seems a shame to waste them. I guess the question comes down to what would VIE make the best hub for. The way LHR works well for the USA,, and HEL works well for heading to Asia. Africa perhaps? South and East seem like the only options... fed maybe by going deeper into the former Yugoslavia greece and Italy as well as the germanic world? Or is Vienna more like a Denver... works well in the centre for short haul but not much else?


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9770 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 9):
Or is Vienna more like a Denver... works well in the centre for short haul but not much else?

I'd say that's pretty much it. When you're in the middle like that, surrounded by many other stronger hubs, a pan-European hub on a smaller scale makes more sense than a long haul hub. After all, LHR / CDG / FRA / AMS own the North America - Europe connections, and EK / QR / EY / TK rule the Europe - Asia connections. Without a significant home base they will have to make do with a short haul operation.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9519 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 10):
When you're in the middle like that, surrounded by many other stronger hubs, a pan-European hub on a smaller scale makes more sense than a long haul hub.

I'm not sure, given the proximity to MUC and ZRH whether a hub of any nature (A to B via VIE) makes any sense at all. I see OS and VIE in the future being predominantly O&D in the same way that, say, MAN or EDI are.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9350 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 11):

I'm not sure, given the proximity to MUC and ZRH whether a hub of any nature (A to B via VIE) makes any sense at all. I see OS and VIE in the future being predominantly O&D in the same way that, say, MAN or EDI are.

If they could've continued on their dominance in the Balkans and Central Asia, they could've become the carrier of choice for West Europe - Balkans / C. Asia.


User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9323 times:

With the exception of Swiss, LH does a terrible job in managing airlines. BMI and now OS. LH just has a problem of updating itself. For example, they absolutely refuse to install flat bed Business Class seating on their aircrafts. Swiss installed them but LH and OS didn't. If they were comitted to having them they would of put them on the A380. They are a complete failure by letting BMI slip through the cracks and by selling it to OW's IAG who will dominate LHR. They should sell it to VS because there is a very strong possibility that they will join *A. Having a support base at LHR is an asset. Plus, they campaigned to have AI join the *A over 9W, which is just stupid.

As for OS, they probably have to scale it back to an O/D base like BRU and EDI. They will rely on major hubs such as FRA,MUC and ZRH. What is going to be next for LH, the collapse of SN?



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9175 times:

VIE is an excellent hub for operations throughout central Europe, the Balkans, Russia, Turkey, N. Africa, the Levant, and into the Arab world, Iraq, and even Iran. OS should focus its efforts on connecting these markets with western Europe, without the need for operating wide body aircraft.

The only TATL routes which I can imagine must be viable for OS are New York, JFK or EWR, and, perhaps, IAD. Both IAD and EWR are, of course, very important Star Alliance UA hubs, and I imagine OS works very closely with UA and its owner, LH, to coordinate TATL operations. Of course, UA does service several important markets in the Middle East directly from IAD and EWR, without the need for a VIE connection.

I believe LH will, rationalize, OS operations and focus its efforts on servicing key eastern markets.


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8972 times:

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
For example, they absolutely refuse to install flat bed Business Class seating on their aircrafts. Swiss installed them but LH and OS didn't.

Next winter, all OS long haul planes will get a cabin refurbishment, including flat bed C class and AVoD in all classes. Pic of the new C seat can be found here.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8363 times:

So how many *A hubs can be sustained in central Europe? VIE, MUC, FRA, ZRH, BRU, WAW... this does not include the additional hubs of BCN, LIS, MAN, LHR, CPH within Europe, who's *A residents also conduct short/medium/long haul operations.

It seems that they are stepping on each other's feet. There are cities which seem to be pretty standard on the long haul range, and some that are standard on the medium range. New York, London, Frankfurt, Paris, and the like. In cases where a connection is made, the options are nearly unlimited. Take your pick. What are the factors? Schedule, Price, Service/Reputation (ok, for A-netters: Aircraft make, series, engine manufacturer, former owner(s) ... .

I have to wonder if there IS an issue with the close proximity of VIE to *A hubs for AUA to otherwise prosper. Would membership on another aliance have resulted in better/different outcome (never mind the position with LH group)?

AUA has very fine product, but outside of that, what makes them stand out from the rest of their *A members, or competition, for that matter?



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineManekS From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

OS have probably been badly effected because of their limited long haul network.

BKK has suffered from floods, affecting the tourist market on which OS relies. NRT is still recovering from the earthquake. The YYZ, BOM and IAD markets are likely going through a phase of uncertainty because of the current, fragile nature of the economy, and the fact that these destinations are only served a few times a week doesn't help their cause. Finally, JFK, PEK and DEL are very competitive markets with a lot of alternate carriers for pax to choose when traveling to Europe.

Given the limited number of long range planes they have, perhaps it would be best to reevaluate their routes and focus on using their resources on high yielding destinations with strong connections to Austria and surrounding Eastern European countries. LH and LX are much better positioned to work as transit hubs to places around the world.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8269 times:

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 16):
Quoting ManekS (Reply 17):

Would it not be easier to simply standardize on a single long haul carrier? It's not a secret Lufthansa owns these airlines, so if limited long haul networks were needed how far fetched is it to see Lufthansa operating those flights on behalf of Austrian, Brussels, etc and connect to the regional network? It would certainly be cheaper for the smaller carriers as they wouldn't be subjected to the expense of maintaining a long haul fleet.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 18):
Would it not be easier to simply standardize on a single long haul carrier? It's not a secret Lufthansa owns these airlines, so if limited long haul networks were needed how far fetched is it to see Lufthansa operating those flights on behalf of Austrian, Brussels, etc and connect to the regional network?

That's a very rational and sensible argument (and Open Skies would, in most cases, enable it) - but, sadly, national politics and the like will fight against it in much the same way as, for example, IAG won't be able to acquire AA even if a takeover bid from (say) US appears.

I thought, from day 1 of the takeover, that BMI's chances of survival would have been enhanced if they have been absorbed into Lufthansa and made an integral part of the parent.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4008 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7562 times:
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Quoting ManekS (Reply 17):

BKK has suffered from floods, affecting the tourist market on which OS relies. NRT is still recovering from the earthquake. The YYZ, BOM and IAD markets are likely going through a phase of uncertainty because of the current, fragile nature of the economy, and the fact that these destinations are only served a few times a week doesn't help their cause. Finally, JFK, PEK and DEL are very competitive markets with a lot of alternate carriers for pax to choose when traveling to Europe.


I, for one, don't know what the chances are of this happening, but I'm going to bring up the thought of OS taking over SA)">UA's EWR-VIE service, which, if they can operate as a JV. I feel SA elite flyers would appreciate the nicer inflight service over SA)">UA. The same goes for IAD-VIE.

In regards to OS service to NRT & BKK, these natural disasters are obviously out of the control of OS. Things will improve.

Quoting ManekS (Reply 17):
Given the limited number of long range planes they have, perhaps it would be best to reevaluate their routes and focus on using their resources on high yielding destinations with strong connections to Austria and surrounding Eastern European countries. LH and LX are much better positioned to work as transit hubs to places around the world.

This is a good idea. They could focus on the Eastern European Region. LH could also have them do some of their flying from VIE-FRA/MUC/HAM/CGN/BER and etc., and in turn, they can put their a/c in other markets, similar to what they did with BD.

Another thing that would probably help trim costs is their fleet. The OS fleet is not that old considering other carriers, but does OS need to fly both Boeing & Airbus narrowbodies? Which are they happier with? They fly both 73G/A319 in the 120 seat range; the 73H/A320 in the 150 seat range. Then instead of the A318, they fly the 736 which has the same issues the of the latter. They also fly the A321 instead of the 739. I know the Boeing fleet came from Lauda, but if OS is happy with them, over the Airbus fleet, it's time to retire one or the other.

Does OS need A321s for the markets they serve? Wouldn't the 73H or A320s cover their routes adequately for the demand?

I also feel the 736s should probably be retired as well as the Fokkers. The E75/E90s can easily replace these birds and do so much more efficiently and economically. When I think of the 736/F70/F100s, I think of LX and their AR1s. I'm surprised LH/LX has decided to wait to replace them with the C-Series which won't be out for a few more years when they could have gone with the E90s.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):

There is currently no service between EWR and Vienna.
The mixed fleet is a byproduct of the Lauda Air. I believe they operate to different markets.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7306 times:

For one thing, LH or LX can't operate OS routes from VIE unless open skies exists; bilaterals would mostly not allow a 3rd country's carrier to operate between VIE and the destination in a 2nd country. Heck, even LH ownership of OS probably causes issues (like Russia objecting to LX operating to Moscow from Switzerland as a wholly owned subsidiary of a German airline). So it's either OS suffering losses in long-haul or giving them up until a global open skies (impossible I guess) is in effect.

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7227 times:

Can they contract On a flight per flight basis? Or come up with a lease or time share-type deal on the aircraft, operated by OS/SN pilots? They already have Airbus type rated pilots on staff. More complicated arrangements exist already between Lufty and BD. Or conversely, have the aircraft under The necessary registry and livery, but in a single Lufthansa configuration and operate where possible throughout the Lufthansa network? But when its needed where bilaterals dictate, it can be scheduled accordingly. Such as having a long hauler do VIE-City-FRA-city-Vienna, thereby spreading the costs around, and rationalizing the network.

[Edited 2011-12-02 09:25:42]

User currently offlineCPHFF From Sweden, joined Aug 2011, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6448 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 4):

Does anyone know if Austrian's B777s are making any money? Maybe it would be better to stick to the smaller B767s?

I have flown VIE-DXB 7 times in the past 18 Months. 6 times on 777 and 1 time on 763. Every single flight has been full in Y and Business. I have no clue how profitable this leg is.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
For example, they absolutely refuse to install flat bed Business Class seating on their aircrafts

Well, the Business Class seats in the 767 is really outdated, the 777's aren't that bad, even though they are not truly lie-flat. With a Business Class price of 20 - 25% below competitors, I feel that it's quite OK on trips shorter than 9hs.



Detroit is bankrupt. Don't forget to thank UAW folks!
25 EuroWings : LH didn't want to 'manage' BD - the takeover was forced upon them as a business decision taken 10 or so years ago when BD was a very different airline
26 SR4ever : Sad to read these latest news about OS, especially as it was seemingly under recovery. In terms of route map, some additions, focused on Germany, Ital
27 Post contains links wdleiser : Lufthansa is a failure? ...........The Lufthansa Group reports operating profit of EUR 578m after nine months http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-...
28 LOWS : They are getting a cabin renewal in 2012 including new seats.
29 ju068 : Austrian Airlines has withdrawn their CRJs, in my opinion it was the best decision they have taken until now. That aircraft was beyond nasty, I remem
30 SR4ever : This makes some sense, but in terms of service, destinations in Near East and Central Asia deserve better than the current product, in terms of IFE a
31 Post contains images SR4ever : As a UA hub, ORD would indeed make sense on OS route map. Not with a 772, but rather a 763, or a 332 or 788. Well, the remaining 3 ER3 from LG are fo
32 Post contains images airbuseric : I hope VIE airport can close the old B-gates (at groundlevel) really quick, since that's a FR-style terminal and does not suit to OS flights. Every ti
33 ju068 : I actually believe that the B767-300 is the most ideal aircraft for Austrian. It's relatiely efficient, not that expensive to operate, comoftable and
34 Post contains links LOWS : The new SkyLink terminal will solve those complaints. Anyone who uses VIE cannot deny that it is a mess and is massively inefficient. I think it is s
35 Semaex : Practically having had my second home in and around Vienna for years, I've been hearing those exact same words for quite a long time now. The SkyLink
36 LOWS : I understand SkyLink will be finished next year, at which point OS operations are scheduled to move exclusively to it. HG/AB/AZ can enjoy the old stu
37 MaverickM11 : I think TK is sprinting ahead as the airline of choice to those regions LH/LX can't do that??
38 ju068 : Yes but Austrian Airlines has a major advantage in comparison with Turkish Airlines and that is that it can rely on a large O&D market between Vi
39 pdpsol : As mentioned in my prior posting and as several members have reiterated here, OS must focus on its strengths. Its owner, LH, knows this and must manag
40 Semaex : As far as traffic ex and to EU countries is concerned, LH can do whatever they want with VIE and OS. Everything out of this open-sky area is a differ
41 Post contains images polot : The EU can only ensure that any airline can fly any route it wants within the EU because it has jurisdiction over that area. The EU is not a country
42 Semaex : Not quite correct. Although in real life OS is owned by LH (a german company), there is a middle-company involved which is based in Austria. That's w
43 polot : I see, I didn't know that. Then it is clear. LH can only fly between VIE and another (non EU) nation if the bilateral allows it. Both being part of t
44 LOWS : I think 2010. They started in 2004 and are about 400€m over budget.
45 ju068 : Was any official explanation given to as why they went so much over the budget?
46 Post contains images LOWS : Yes. It's the way we do business in Austria.
47 Post contains images Semaex : Harsh The money has probably sunk somewhere in the depths of corruption and bad initial planned mixed with an investor who chickened out - basically
48 YTZ : I know waiting is rough, but I do believe that was the right aircraft for the job. Actually I think the C-Series would work really well for OS and VO
49 LOWS : The F100s and 70s would be perfectly replaced with the Cseries. The 788 and maybe a few 789s would be perfect for the longhaul fleet. Some A32Xs woul
50 ju068 : Not only intra-Austrian destinations but routes in the Balkans where they are facing competition from airlines also using turboprops. For example Jat
51 Semaex : Many on this forum believe that it's only a matter of time until LH will order a whole bunch (three digits) of new aircraft for the entire network, i
52 LOWS : How long until those go into production? Or are they waiting for a launch customer...?
53 ju068 : They do now, they received some from Air Berlin. They are a regular visitor to Belgrade, however, they wear the Air Berlin livery. Actually if you th
54 Burkhard : Russia I remember made a lot of problems with LH ownership over OS, and I assume this middle man is exactly due to this. Any changes of the bilateral
55 LOWS : And an excellent connection point for onward journeys in Asia. SYD, AKL, etc.
56 Post contains links AustrianZRH : According to OS officials BKK was the highest-yielding and most profitable long haul route in the OS network IIRC (read it in an article some weeks a
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