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Did Airbus Nearly Win Lion Air Order?  
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12872 posts, RR: 46
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6673 times:
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It seems that at one point, Airbus was pretty close to having a deal for A320neos from Lion Air all wrapped up.

It would have been a pretty big shock if Lion Air had selected the neo.  Wow!http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...boeing-obama-idUSLNE7B100B20111202

Quote:
The CEO and owner of that airline, who has bought nothing but Boeing airplanes, actually came to see me in Toulouse twice to talk about buying the airplanes and in the end told me he had no choice," Leahy said.
...
A person with direct knowledge of the talks said Airbus had progressed as far as reaching a provisional deal known as a memorandum of understanding with Lion Air, which although non-binding, usually signals an end to the competition.



It's very interesting that this has come out at exactly the same time that the EU has submitted its plan for meeting the WTO ruling requirements.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9RBRI0O0.htm

Quote:
The European Union says it has complied with a World Trade Organization ruling that called for an end to unfair subsidies for aircraft maker Airbus.



However, both sides seem to be squaring up for further arguments.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ea3aae7b05b78df595861f1a0ea602.201

Quote:
Boeing spokesman Tim Neale said the comment about "limited changes" was "laughable", arguing that in May "the WTO found $18 billion of illegal subsidies to Airbus, and every instance of launch aid to be an illegal subsidy".

An EU source, though, said that no figures were contained in the actual appeal findings, and that the sums declared illegal were vastly lower, without detailing how much they were



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5944 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6573 times:

Yes, because Leahy's words are NEVER over the top....
Leahy is about as useful as Randy Tinseth.... Randy's blog contains lots of good info, but when it comes to marketing..... well, it's marketing.
Airbus has to say something about it, and of course Leahy would say that the Lion CEO was fawning over their products, and at the end he had no choice but to buy Boeing.... blah blah.

It would be equally untrustworthy if the shoes were on opposite feet, and it was Boeing doing the PR spin.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31392 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6566 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
It seems that at one point, Airbus was pretty close to having a deal for A320neos from Lion Air all wrapped up.

It would have been a pretty big shock if Lion Air had selected the neo.    

If JT was talking to Airbus before Boeing offered the 737MAX, I would not find it shocking since AK had placed a massive A320neo order and JT would surely have been worried how a competitor flying a large fleet of not-insignificantly more fuel efficient aircraft would have impacted their own operations.

As for claims that the US "pressured" Indonesia to force JT to buy the 737MAX...w'ever. It's surely happened before and it will no doubt happen again.

But it's not something unique to the United States and Boeing Commercial.

We know France pressured Thailand to force TG to keep their A380 order (per Thai reports). I expect a deep enough analysis will find some quid pro quo between France and Vietnam for VN's A380 order. China expresses her Imperial Pleasure and Displeasure with the US and the EU through purchases of Boeing and Airbus products. And one wonders if the EU didn't help with Airbus' financing package that helped them secure that massive AA order...

Sovereign States have a vested interest in protecting their vested interests.  

[Edited 2011-12-02 07:10:19]

User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2750 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
It would have been a pretty big shock if Lion Air had selected the neo.

Like Stitch, I would not have been all that shocked if indeed Lion had signed a NEO MOU pre-MAX launch, which does seem to be the case.

However, we also now know that as soon as Boeing decided on the MAX, Lion jumped on board in a big way. The day Boeing launched MAX (August 30), they stated they had commitments from 5 airlines for 496 frames. Lion's 201 was included in that initial count.

As far as 'White House pressure' on Lion to buy Boeing - I'll believe what comes out of J.L.'s mouth the same day I'll believe what comes out of R.T.'s. They're good when talking about their own products. When it comes to their competitors, it's all b.s. The fact Lion is strongly denouncing pressure is good evidence.


Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6965 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
As for claims that the US "pressured" Indonesia to force JT to buy the 737MAX...w'ever. It's surely happened before and it will no doubt happen again.

"Pressure" came from both Boeing and Airbus... they got their own "local pressure cookers" to put airline CEOs in...   

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 4):
As far as 'White House pressure' on Lion to buy Boeing - I'll believe what comes out of J.L.'s mouth the same day I'll believe what comes out of R.T.'s. They're good when talking about their own products. When it comes to their competitors, it's all b.s. The fact Lion is strongly denouncing pressure is good evidence.

Oh, there is pressure... HUGE pressure, made on Lion...   
It's called, "Get the MAX and you'll be able to convert/defer the remaining aircraft from your previous big order, at no cost, with the same financing options... if you move to the NEO, we'll make sure you deliver all of your current outstanding orders, to which you've already complained that financing the 739ER is much harder than the 738s..." Hence, "I have no choice" comment...   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineCPHFF From Sweden, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5724 times:

Well, maybe JL is just a poor loser... You win a few, you lose a few. That's the name of the game.

In all fairness, It's Obama's job/duty to market American products to create jobs in the US. If he didn't promote US products, he'd be asitting duck at the next Election.



Detroit is bankrupt. Don't forget to thank UAW folks!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5484 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
A person with direct knowledge of the talks said Airbus had progressed as far as reaching a provisional deal known as a memorandum of understanding with Lion Air, which although non-binding, usually signals an end to the competition.

This I question. An MOU is a big deal and implies a much more mature negotiation than a 'letter of intent.' I would believe a 'letter of intent' but not an MOU.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
I would not find it shocking since AK had placed a massive A320neo order and JT would surely have been worried how a competitor flying a large fleet of not-insignificantly more fuel efficient aircraft would have impacted their own operations.

I think this is the crux. Until the 737MAX was offered, the NEO had a very competitive edge. Lion Air would be unlikely to be the first customer Boeing would discuss MAX design with. Thus, Lion air would have had no choice but to begin serious negotiations with Airbus as they would be in the dark on the MAX until later in the sales process. Once Lion Air was briefed on the MAX, I'm certain they would have been likely to switch discussions due to airframe commonality.

Seriously, there is so much negotiation in aircraft purchasing that it isn't surprising that Lion air might has switched.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

JL must have something on Obama. Paperwork, travel dates etc.

Quite frankly I have always known the US to remain in the background in world affairs and in global commerce, they are fair players. It would come as a shock to me if there was any tangible proof that showed otherwise.

JL is playing a tough game with his fellow country men


User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1163 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 6):
In all fairness, It's Obama's job/duty to market American products to create jobs in the US. If he didn't promote US products, he'd be asitting duck at the next Election.

So Obama is a Boeing employee now?  

I very much doubt that any government pressure was needed here. Boeing had all the leverage they needed, see Mandala499's reply 5 which makes perfect sense to me.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

John Leahy, reknowned for making

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 5):
Well, maybe JL is just a poor loser... You win a few, you lose a few. That's the name of the game

I'm of the same opinion.
He has made several questionable comments over the years about Boeing orders that sound like sour grapes to me.

And before anyone jumps down by throat for being pro-Boeing, yes, they've done it to, and at the time I called it as I saw it too.



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