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A United A380 May Be On The Way  
User currently offlinesnn2003 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 48269 times:

I did not see this posted anywhere. I guess this would be good news for those that want some more A380 action in the US.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...comm&id=news/avd/2011/12/02/01.xml

SNN


One way, IAH-RTB please! No return ticket required.
244 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTCASAlert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 48227 times:

Interesting if it happens, and good news for Airbus getting a potential foothold in the Americas. Looks like they will deployed across UA's Asian network though, presumably to replace some of the 747s?

Do UA still base aircraft out in Japan or are they all operated on an extension of flights from the US?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16863 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 48108 times:

Quote:
Airbus considers Boeing 747 operators as likely A380 customers, and in North America that means United and Delta Air Lines are candidates. However, Delta is no longer a target, having told Airbus it wants to focus on smaller widebodies, says Leahy. “That leaves United as our target,” he added.

Makes sense as the market for the A380 from the US is definitely Asia, specifically West Coast-Asia. DL is not going to be able to make an A380 work to Asia from SEA, SFO, LAX, DTW, JFK or ATL. UA could make them work from SFO and LAX. The A350-900s make more sense as replacements for non ER PMUA 777s. I could see a UA order for approximately 12-15 A380s as well as an order for 12-15 77Ws to replace the 747-400 fleet.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1668 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 47898 times:

I would probably expect to see the ORD-Asia flights go 77W (if they did a dual order) and SFO/LAX-Asia/Australia go 388 if this actually happens.

[Edited 2011-12-02 09:01:58]

User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5135 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 47827 times:

That would be absolutely wonderfull news. The strategy many US airlines use, frequency instead over larger planes, is not possible forever. Like many people know many irports are getting to their max, and espacially longhaul frequency doesnt really matter due to the timezones. Often flights are landing all together in either the evening or the morning.

Besides Asia flights I can see UA using the A380 on flights to LHR.


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47751 times:

Airbus considers Boeing 747 operators as likely A380 customers, and in North America that means United and Delta Air Lines are candidates. However, Delta is no longer a target, having told Airbus it wants to focus on smaller widebodies, says Leahy. “That leaves United as our target,” he added.

It's an Airbus and Leahy pipe dream. UA has no need or interest in the A380, they are interested in narrow bodies and Airbus is trying to upsell the A380. UA is playing like they are interested to drive the price lower for the narrowbodies they are interested in...


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1668 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47603 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 5):
UA is playing like they are interested to drive the price lower for the narrowbodies they are interested in...

I would think Leahy fully understands this. But it could be the opposite. He could be promising good deals on the A380 in return for a narrowbody order.


User currently offlinetpaewr From United States of America, joined May 2001, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47471 times:

Oh I am so glad this is public now! I knew this shortly after getting in MNL. But I knew if I said such here I'd get nothing but scorn. What has changed in the post-merger company is seeing routes that can support the 380. So yeah, size matters  

So yeah it is true. Nothing def yet, but very poss. Frankly I am more of an 748i fan


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47306 times:
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Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 5):
It's an Airbus and Leahy pipe dream

Just like selling A320s to AA?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1993 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47249 times:

I see it as a way of getting out of the A359 order. Switch those to A380s. Then they can build the rest of their long-haul fleet around the 787. If my theory comes to pass, then it might be confirmation that Boeing will launch the -10X.

User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5135 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47184 times:

This would be absolutely cool and a dream come true:

UA with A380, A350 and A320NEO


User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 380 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47185 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 5):
It's an Airbus and Leahy pipe dream.

  

I would call it a wet dream of Mr. Leahy.


User currently offlinelucky777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47130 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 4):
The strategy many US airlines use, frequency instead over larger planes, is not possible forever.

Newsflash.....airports will do what they've always done if/when they near capacity issues. They'll expand. I'll take frequency any day over cramming 500 people into 1 flight per day thank you very much.


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1993 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47128 times:

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 7):
Oh I am so glad this is public now! I knew this shortly after getting in MNL. But I knew if I said such here I'd get nothing but scorn. What has changed in the post-merger company is seeing routes that can support the 380. So yeah, size matters

I've been saying this too. The post-merger company is bound to have a few routes where an A380 would make sense.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30974 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47009 times:
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Clearly one can never say never about these things.

At the moment, the number of international gateways the United States offers to US flag carriers favors more flights with smaller planes, for even slot-restricted destinations can be scheduled to maximize what slots are available to said carriers.

But if UA begins to consolidate those gateways and increases the traffic flow at what gateways remains to the point where slot allocations are insufficient to meet traffic demands, then going bigger is the only option and VLAs like the A380-800 and 747-8 become more relevant to fleet and route planning decisions.

[Edited 2011-12-02 09:45:54]

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47018 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):

This makes no sense and people in the UAL SOC were getting a chuckle at the article last night. The A380 doesn't fit the model of where UA is going. The 380 is fine if UA continued to route all traffic in Asia via NRT. But this is what the airline is getting away from. This is more a posturing thing to try and get the 150 narrow body order.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSulley From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47025 times:

An A380 fleet with the globe on the tail. Nice  

Though I too like the 747-8i...



In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46904 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
UA could make them work from SFO and LAX.

Yes, and if they muster the courage to fly the A380 SIN-HKG-LAX, then I might actually try to fly UA for the first time in my life!



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46898 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 4):
The strategy many US airlines use, frequency instead over larger planes, is not possible forever. Like many people know many irports are getting to their max, and espacially longhaul frequency doesnt really matter due to the timezones. Often flights are landing all together in either the evening or the morning.

The diffusion of U.S. gateways is as much a factor as the preference for frequencies. There is less and less reason to route passengers through a handful of major hubs for the purpose of filling VLAs. The U.S. has both a growing population and economy, which over time turns secondary gateways into plausible international gateways in their own right. That couples with newer aircraft that makes longer/thinner routes more viable.

Granted the O&D traffic of major hub cities is growing, too. This is just speaking in general terms, not to a particular reason why UA should or should not order VLAs. Two other side notes:

1. Maybe it is possible to add frequencies "forever." Unlike London or Tokyo, U.S. cities do tend to have the political will to expand airports or develop new ones.

2. You can add lots of capacity before adding VLAs just my upgauging from 763s to 788/789/A359s and A333/772 to 77W/A351s. I don't have the time to run the numbers based on U.S. airline fleets, but that could go a long way towards the growth in capacity that JL forecasts.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3990 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46849 times:
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Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 5):
UA is playing like they are interested to drive the price lower for the narrowbodies they are interested in...

Because faking interest in one product to get a deal on another is a brand new trick no one has used before and Airbus will not see it coming... For Airbus to believe that United is interested, it takes a lot more than a note on the back of a postcard sent to Toulose. It takes genuine, costly, work on behalf of United that Airbus would spot in a millisecond if it was faked and that Untied wouldn't undertake just on the vague hope of a discount on a narrowbody order.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 12):
They'll expand.

Expand EWR for us. Or SFO. Reclaiming land is far more expensive and complicated, from an engineering, political and environmental point of view, than adding a few A380-capable gates.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46856 times:

I thought United was getting A350s to 'replace' the 744s... now they are talking 380s?

No 748s?


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9633 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46859 times:

PMUA management felt that operating very large aircraft provided too much risk to outweigh the benefit of lower operating costs. The routes identified as justifying an airplane larger than the A350-900 were SFO-SYD, LAX-SYD, SFO-NRT, ORD-NRT, & ORD-HKG. At times in the year it is truly justified operating a 747 and an A380 would likely deliver seats that would not be detrimental to revenue. However, the problem is that 747s (and A380s) always cost more to operate than the smaller planes.

UA just did not have the continous loads to justify the larger planes. These peak routes went out with close to 100% load factor during peak times and capacity of the 747 was not enough. However with the exception of SFO-NRT, the rest of the routes struggled to fill 374 seats on a daily basis without dumping discount seats on the market. UA shrunk the 747 fleet because of this and has moved towards adding a second flight on SFO-NRT, ORD-HKG, & LAX-SYD when it is justified. It works much better to right size the markets by supplementing the routes with extra aircraft only when needed despite the CASM penalty over operating the larger airplane. UA does a pretty good job of adapting their international fleet to match desired capacity. Almost every destination from SFO to Asia sees variability in either frequency or capacity over the course of the year as the airline adjusts supply with demand. The A380 does not allow the airline to do that as easily.

One note is that although load factors may not show the struggle to fill a 747 on the routes, RASM does. RASM took a hit due to the larger planes and having to adjust the fare structure because of the available seats.

UA in general is not setup to support very large aircraft. With the number of international gateways, larger planes aren't as successful as smaller planes to the same destination. The model for the A380 works well with airlines that have a single major hub. It doesn't work well for airlines with split hubs and large domestic networks. UA's international network is too fragmented for the plane.

As far as the article goes, I think the following quote is marketing non-sense:

However, the Airbus executive issued a caveat when pressed on a pending United deal, noting, “I’m not saying there is an order soon, but United understands that if it wants to have a major presence in Asia it needs the A380.”

United already is the biggest transpacific carrier, so I don't believe that "United understands that if it wants to have a major presense in asia it needs the A380". UA understands how to maximize profitability by right sizing its transpacific flying. The A380 could be squeezed into the network, but it would be a challenge. I'd expect an airplane order for A350-1000 or 777x to be the largest on their potential radar, but I know I have been wrong before.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAfricawings From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46822 times:

Seriously, no votes for the 7478i here?

Isn't it a more natural progression and upgrade for United? What am I missing?


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46798 times:

I don't think any airline in USA is ready for an A380. Just not going to happen.

I'd like to see those larger US airlines order the 748-i. They should stick with their home product and secure jobs for the local population.

The A380 is a prestigious aircraft for prestigious airlines.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30974 posts, RR: 86
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 46749 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
As far as the article goes, I think the following quote is marketing non-sense:

However, the Airbus executive issued a caveat when pressed on a pending United deal, noting, “I’m not saying there is an order soon, but United understands that if it wants to have a major presence in Asia it needs the A380.”

United already is the biggest transpacific carrier, so I don't believe that "United understands that if it wants to have a major presense in asia it needs the A380".

Well Airbus says nonsense like that because you have people saying nonsense like this:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 23):
I don't think any airline in USA is ready for an A380. Just not going to happen.

I'd like to see those larger US airlines order the 748-i. They should stick with their home product and secure jobs for the local population.

The A380 is a prestigious aircraft for prestigious airlines.


25 Post contains images Sulley : Even Air Austral?
26 Post contains images par13del : Well AA did operate Airbus a/c before, like the A300 so why is that such a stretch, or are you saying there really was a bust up after the crahs in N
27 Post contains images Stitch : I'll spot you London, but Japan's government seems to be quite content to use Public Works projects like new airports to spur job growth/retainment.
28 bmacleod : AC or DL will order the A380 before UA ever does.... UA has indicated when it ordered the A350XWB to replace the 744s it really has no use for VLA (ve
29 United787 : I think there is room in the new UA for the 748i or the A380, especially on most of the current 744 routes to Asia. If the A380 is seriously being con
30 RoseFlyer : “I flew into JFK [John F. Kennedy International Airport] and it looked pretty crowded,” Leahy said during the presentation, which predicts a doubl
31 Centre : Mark your words guys !!!
32 airportugal310 : I'm pretty sure that was aimed at the "no US airline would ever order and A380" crowd... Everyone always said AA was loyal only to Boeing (which Im s
33 United_fan : An A380 order would be nice , but do they have room and gates to park them at thier destinations?
34 Stitch : At least SFO and LAX are A380-ready. I imagine a number of other UA gateways can accommodate the plane, especially if it's just one movement a day.
35 rdh3e : Granted though, that was UA pre-merger. I'd bet there is a lot more traffic to be generated now. IAD, EWR, ORD, IAH, SFO, LAX + SEA, and a half point
36 Post contains images na : Lets hope so. I have recently illustrated an UA A380 for a press project so I wasnt too far off I think. I agree with you, a UA 748I would be just as
37 warreng24 : UA does not base any 744's out of NRT. All 744's rotate daily from the USA. UA does sometimes "base" 772's out of NRT. Example, the same aircraft may
38 T5towbar : As I said in another post about the 380, EWR isn't infrastructurally ready to handle a 380. JFK is. Do you know how much it's going to cost to make t
39 kiwiandrew : When did SEA suddenly become a hub for UA? A single daily SEA-NRT flight does not make a hub in my opinion.
40 United787 : I stand corrected, can't believe I forgot about IAH and SEA...but you forgot about GUM, that has to count for another half point at least to bring it
41 Burkhard : I would also expect FRA to see them once or twice daily,
42 Post contains images warden145 : I remember when SFO was talking about building new runways so they could meet the minimum poor-visibility spacing requirements that currently causes
43 Post contains images ER757 : Then why aren't all the 747's retired to the desert? Maybe it's just me being sentimental, but UA without the 747 doesn't seem right. Since I was an
44 United787 : Totally agree! The RJs are the problem with US airports, they A380 and 748i aren't going to solve that problem. That said, I still think UA could use
45 rdh3e : It's not, hence I said 6 hubs, +1.5. the 1.5 being SEA and HNL. To Leahy's point and other's opinions, we'll probably see more guage increasing, but
46 slider : I've already read the responses to this by others and concur---I think you might be makign this a mutually exclusive argument when it's not. There is
47 YULWinterSkies : I think the 77W will never make it into UA's fleet, because the A350 is on order. But never never exists when it comes to aviation industry. I've bee
48 Chrisa330 : If UA doesn't need this kind of capacity, there is no way AC needs this kind of capacity. Even the B77Ws are too big for some of their routes.
49 RoseFlyer : There definitely is need for capacity at UA, the problem is that it is only during part of the year. Due to seasonal fluctuation, it makes more sense
50 SkyPriorityDTW : Even the Delta has no intentions of ordering aircraft in the near future, an A380 can EASILY work on the DTW-NRT route. That flight is almost ALWAYS
51 rdh3e : it would certainly take some clever fleeting solutions. But you could probably take some routes that are normally double daily during the winter and
52 catiii : The headline says "Airbus Expects United To Place A380 Order." Well of COURSE they "expect it." They probably expect every potential customer to place
53 RoseFlyer : None of UA's transpacific routes are double daily in the winter unless you count Hawaii routes, but I don't think UA will be buying A380s, putting 60
54 rdh3e : Yeah, I wasn't trying to say they should restrict them only transpac. But perhaps they could be used for more of the TATL JV flying during the other
55 Post contains images YTZ : Sounds like the A380 could only work for UA if they get to base the aircraft at NRT. Wonder if UA could trade in its order for 25 A359s and get 17 A38
56 kiwiandrew : What would be the benefit to UA of going back to having their own full hub at NRT when they already have a joint venture with their partner NH?
57 deltaflyertoo : Frequency is only good on WN short hops, transcons and MAYBE (pushing envelope) Europe. After that, when flying 10 to 16 hours and having extreme jetl
58 YTZ : I was artfully exaggerating.... It's obviously not a likely scenario.
59 United727 : If you think that Boeing is going to just stand there and watch this happen, IF it does, I think everyone is sadly mistaken. If the 744's are replace
60 threepoint : EWR and SFO were mentioned. I'd be interested in hearing your plans for LAX and JFK as well. As mentioned, an airline has very few frequency options
61 Post contains links and images kiwiandrew : perhaps he is referring to the original meaning of 'prestigious' rather than the more recent usage of the word? http://etymonline.com/?term=prestigio
62 cslusarc : Lets set that cap at flights under 8 hours long (where it can be flown with a 2-man flight crew). The main problem for UA is that airy airplane in th
63 RoseFlyer : For UA's Asia routes, frequency allows right sizing of aircraft because it can be seasonally changed. It's not about convenience for passengers and a
64 SonomaFlyer : As much as I'd LOVE to see either the 748 or 380 in the UA fleet, their route/hub structure doesn't support such an order. The reason has been stated
65 AADC10 : I have no idea where Airbus thinks UA would use an A380. Unless UA cuts some Asian routes and funnels them through SFO, I just do not see it. Unless s
66 Tdan : A380 will not happen at UA unless there is a spike in slot controls and protectionism. Even at that, there are very few routes (if any) at UA that wou
67 rdh3e : I agree with your logic however: LAX is definitely a Hub, just FYI. According to OAG, UA had 217 daily flights from LAX, including 14 to Hawaii, and
68 connies4ever : Back in the day, AC and EA came to an innovative solution re seasonal demand fluctuations. AC's big peak (then) was summer, and EA was winter. Soluti
69 Post contains links and images KC135TopBoom : You mean like BC and IT? IF there is any real interest in the A-380 by UA, and that is a very big IF, they would also be interested in the B-747-8I.
70 SEA : I don't think PMUA have any VLAs in their future. I'm guessing if they saw a huge need for them, they would have purchased a mixture of A388s and 748i
71 imiakhtar : You're talking about a man who took airbus market share in commercial aviation from 18% in 1995 to over 50% by 1999. Underestimate John Leahy at your
72 something : Some beautiful comments in this thread.. makes youtube jealous. Bigger airplanes are the natural evolution and logical answer to growth in the aviatio
73 Post contains images par13del : So we have a European saying publicy that the quality of Airbus a/c was not all that led to their rise to prominence in the aviation industry????? Sa
74 qf002 : They're more likely to wait for the A389 (if it ever happens...) IMO.
75 Post contains images imiakhtar : I think the quality of the aircraft is just as important as the sales pitch. Since the 1990s, airbus products on offer have been just as good, and in
76 XT6Wagon : Can I have some of whatever he is on? Must be the good stuff. If JFK gets too crowded for UA to operate its EU flights... They have a huge selection
77 Post contains images dfambro : I, for one, am really bugged by my lack of frequency options on my NRT and HKG trips. Seriously. I'd much rather leave and arrive 3 hours later than
78 VC10er : It will be more interesting when LH reports on the actual 748i performance.
79 Post contains images hannahpa : If the GFC ever subsides, the global economy becomes vibrant, population continues to climb (now at 7 billion people and counting--projected to be 8
80 avek00 : Based on prior experience, we'd certainly hear at least some suggestion that the airline would order the Flying Forehead from the CO...um, United CEO
81 United Airline : Still many of their asian flights go through NRT. They once had 44 B 747-400s and they did very well with those. Besides it's time for them to get the
82 AngMoh : I can not see the A380 with a US airline because I don't think they know how to run an international business. How can CX run 4-5x daily 77W on HKG-J
83 SXDFC : Thank you Babybus for providing me and many others with a good laugh today..
84 United Airline : The ones which ordered the A380s are doing way better than all these US airlines. Well said. No wonder most US airlines are in trouble
85 mikey72 : I don't think it's prestigious. It's just a novelty and big ! Concorde...now that was prestigious.
86 United Airline : The A380 allows the airline to add in lots of special features
87 mikey72 : Bars and showers ? Tackerama. Won't last.
88 Post contains images LifelinerOne : The article mentions "i.e. the A380", that includes VLA's made by other manufacturers as well. The Airbus outlook is talking about the market in gene
89 boilerla : Who says? Delta and United combined this year so far for 2 billion in operating profits. They're the world's largest airlines by several metrics. I'd
90 aerokiwi : Eye-roll comment of the day. Excellent post RoseFlyer. Well put.
91 RWA380 : CX offers a better over all product. CX also has it's super hub in HKG and flies tons of people to China, and all SE Asia with multiple operations da
92 Post contains images astuteman : So just to summarise this thread so far..... It's too expensive to make the modifications an airport needs to handle an A380, but no problem at all to
93 mikey72 : I think if the American carriers could up their market share over the Pacific and Atlantic by improving their products/service etc they could warrant
94 AngMoh : Airlines flying A380 can fill them because they have higher service levels, but UA customers don't want higher service levels so even of they improve
95 cuban8 : It's impossible for an airline with mutlihub-operations to make an A380 profitable. The A380 operator criteria is to only operate out of one Megahub.
96 nuggetsyl : I know EWR runway is not long enough but EWR - TLV would be a perfect fit.
97 nuggetsyl : How much longer would the EWR runway have to be to handle the A380
98 KC135TopBoom : You can have them. Many Americans are always in a hurray when it comes to international airline travel (not all Americans). They are on a business tr
99 Post contains links and images tjwgrr : Hot off Photoshop:
100 Post contains images PM : Well, excuse me but I'd suggest that Lufthansa are profitable with the A380 and they certainly have more than one hub. To take just my own circumstan
101 Post contains images astuteman : Very kind of you. Offer accepted Rgds
102 something : Are you sure that's an issue? I am in no position at the moment to provide hard numbers, but have spoken to various A380 pilots who invariably told m
103 Post contains links and images airbazar : We're already there. Who ever thought that AA would order 773's? They haven't operated anything that large in almost 30 years. View Large View Medium
104 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Now what is it? Is deplaning taking more time because you're on an A380, or because customs and TSA are the bottleneck? You are suggesting the latter
105 avek00 : HKG, TPE, BKK, SIN, and ICN are offered by United via NRT, and UA offers well-used nonstop options from the USA to HKG and ICN. UA's 744 would take a
106 KC135TopBoom : Not to many Americans fly on a B-737 to South Africa. But that is not the point. Even great international airports with efficent customs and security
107 Post contains images wn700driver : A 77W or A3510 would be an even more natural progression. New runways where? They're already doing a near magical job using what little space they ha
108 Post contains images Stitch : Some rational commentary, but I admit it's buried pretty deep.
109 Post contains images JoeCattoli : Seems to me people had a hard time understanding cuban8 was continuing the ironic comment Astuteman wrote earlier on. Ciao Joe
110 Post contains images LifelinerOne : For this moment yes, but as I mentioned earlier, in the last decade airlines ordered planes with an average of 8% more seats. Now I don't see the wor
111 Post contains images EPA001 : This thread turned into a very nice and sometimes laughable read. Which is no surprise if the A380 and a US-based airline are mentioned in the same ar
112 unityofsaints : The 380 needs less runway than the 744, not sure what you mean. Unloading that many pax into the EWR sewage terminals is a different matter however..
113 747400sp : You mean LAX and SFO. Please forgive me if I come off as a jerk, but as somebody who grow up around LAX, and the fact that LAX is the US third busies
114 Post contains images cuban8 : Thank you guys for putting a big grin on my face today. I thought referring to Astuteman's post was enough to get the sarcasm, but I guess I will hav
115 fun2fly : Sure is a good way to get the prices of the 748i drop! EWR > HKG would be a perfect fit for either VLA to keep up or create a buzz vs. those 5x day
116 Post contains images Stitch : Per Boeing public statements (and private RFP information I have been made privy to), it's not.
117 deltamartin : Ok, I dont care about any argument regarding if they should order it or not, now I want UA to order it, no matter what. That is one beautiful livery
118 Post contains images PW100 : I'm probably reading this incorrectly, but could not resist. The quoted message is that UA can funnel NYC O&D passengers from non-stop flights to
119 Post contains images Stitch : The old saw says opinions are like a**holes, so I suppose we should not be surprised when most opinions are s**t. With respect, I imagine you are bec
120 globetrekker64 : I could see UA going to the 388 esp since the A350 is going to be massively delayed. I would of thought the 748 would make more sense because of cost
121 globetrekker64 : I don't think if it is beautiful or not doesn't really matter. In AUS all the main competition for UA are flying the A388 so that also may be the dri
122 SonomaFlyer : I stand pilloried and corrected that LAX is and should always be a hub for UA... That makes at least eight hubs. For a country as geographically large
123 Revelation : The 8i has gotten the board to the face by almost every serious customer Boeing wanted it to have except LH and KE. In particular, Boeing was powerle
124 airbazar : You forgot ZRH, VIE, and BRU. Yes, they are all LH hubs albeit under a different brand names. AF/KL/DL combined also have multiple hubs on both sides
125 Stitch : I've heard differently, but that's air over the wing, especially since I believe BA made the better choice in selecting the A380-800. Frankly, you're
126 Post contains images cuban8 : This will definitely be on top of the priority list when UA (or any other carrier for that matter) makes up their mind about future fleet growth and
127 something : Now that the wave of ''I prefer point-to-point, thank you - but I haven't actually flown in the last 40 years'' seems to have passed, how about we sta
128 YTZ : Nonsense. And ridiculous stereotyping. When you're country is the size of a postage stamp, you won't really understand what role RJs fill. Live in a
129 Stitch : If we assume that UA sees high-season traffic rise a minimum of 50% and low-season / mid-season traffic at least double, then I could see an A380-800
130 something : I think it's more of a mentality difference and how air travel is perceived. I wish I was more intimately familiar with Asia and am currently trying
131 dfambro : As a loyal 1K UA asia flyer, generally (BOS -&gt ORD -> NRT and -> HKG, both 744 routes, here's a very personal perspective: ORD->HKG, up
132 747400sp : Now remember, Boeing burned BA back in the 90s. British Airways was one of the launch consumers for the 747 600X in the mid to late 90s. When Boeing
133 Stitch : BA actually was the one who pulled the plug on their 747-600X MoU, making an announcement in early December 1996 that while they were still part of t
134 AeroWesty : Interesting perspective, but I doubt you have it right. How are international flights selected by those paying for the seats that drive real revenue?
135 YTZ : I think this viewpoint that Americans don't want and aren't willing to pay for quality is a fallacy. How else to explain the fact that the US still r
136 YTZ : There's a huge flaw in your analogy. In Europe most of those hubs are home to a single airline which rarely operates other hubs. Even among the airli
137 Post contains images justloveplanes : As is market fragmentation via the 767 (Transatlantic), the 777 (Transpacific) and soon the 787 (gobalized tier 2 cities) Almost! Need a few more 787
138 YTZ : Well put. I'd take it one step further. Companies are less and less likely to pay for F and J in the future. I know in my workplace, we aren't entitl
139 YTZ : The question is really simple. If you're a regular traveller (the once a year VFR crowd doesn't matter as much to airlines), what would you prefer? Wo
140 COEWR787 : Aren't they looking at the Thames Estuary Airport idea even in London?
141 globetrekker64 : I think its pointless speculating when there are no confirmed orders just yet. For all we know this is just UA going through the motions to get price
142 warden145 : Forgive me for jumping back to this sub-subject, but I thought that this was worth responding to... Therein lays the issue. Every planned new runway l
143 Stitch : I believe it's actually the head of sales at Airbus commenting that some day in the future UA could order the A380.
144 STT757 : I wonder if Airbus would be willing to give UA an escape clause to allow them to opt out of A380 contracts/leases should the economy tank or other eve
145 nuggetsyl : WOW never knew the a380 needed less runway. I was told by a pilot the other day EWR need more runway to have them land their. If we do get any A380 i
146 par13del : Other than the restrictions that the FAA put in for JFK, which airports are slot restricted in the US? In Europe they would bee a boon as they have m
147 T5towbar : It's not the length of the runways, it's the width of the taxiways that cause concern. The taxiways at EWR are narrower than most 380 airports. I thi
148 something : I don't mean to sound disrespectful but you seem to compare different things here. Yes, BA may only have one hub. But then again, there are much less
149 SSTeve : The issue is taxiways. It is too wide.
150 747400sp : You got that right! For the first year or so, when QF started operating A380s to LAX, they needed a follow me car, just to taxi for take off.
151 gigneil : We've built ONE new airport in the United States in 25 years. Right. Massively. 6 months. NS
152 RoseFlyer : Very true point, however UA as of now is not having problems with slots in airports. I don't know of any slot controled airport in the network where
153 justloveplanes : Even before the 388 was operational, DL, CO and AA had all ditched their 744's. The US trend toward topping out at a 772 has been going on for quite
154 gigneil : None ever operated any. NS
155 staralliance85 : This is a false rumor: There is No need for UA to have A380s because they are going to have the 787 and A350. Most of their hub terminals cannot accom
156 BigB : You guys are missing the point about UA NRT and HKG flights...... Remember, those flights currently continue onwards to intra-asia flights too. Some o
157 United Airline : I believe most of the intra-Asia flights will remain....... Like HKG-SIN/SGN, NRT-SIN, NRT-BKK, NRT-TPE etc
158 BigB : They will remain I'm sure, but look for them to be downgauge to 737s. Like HKG-SIN for example, got downgauged and a uproar happened on flyertalk beca
159 wn700driver : Didn't think of that. Yes, most doable, except for the administrative hindrances you pointed out. Like many of us here, I'm actually not surprised on
160 globetrekker64 : Read about it Mate! Its just six months now before they have even put one together! The A350-1000 has been put on hold no one even knows when it will
161 Post contains images AirlineCritic : Well done, Sir! First off, is your argument that too much passenger traffic at a given time will clog the airport, or that aircraft type has somethin
162 Post contains images airbazar : Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and we're both saying the same thing with different words But if CX is doing that (transporting pax between Asia and t
163 Stitch : I would think such a scenario would then support the use of a VLA by CX, whom could then consolidate that load onto fewer frequencies, but CX managem
164 par13del : Or it could mean that US O&D pax are not interested in the one stop option when they can get a non-stop going somewhere else from an airport near
165 windy95 : The maintenance and training infrastructure allready exists for the 747-800 if a VLA is required. Very little change is reqiuired.
166 STT757 : EWR's runway 4L is 11,000ft long, there's only one runway longer than that at JFK (13R). 13R was out of commission for about a year for rebuilding, t
167 Post contains images astuteman : For reference... On an 11 000ft runway, at sea level, still air and ISA conditions, an A380 would be capable of taking off at over 590 tonnes, way mo
168 Post contains images airbazar : I'd rather not re-hash this discussion again But all the signals they've sent is that the A388 is too small.
169 Stitch : But where is it too small? In the cabin? Or in the cargo hold? And if the latter, will the A380-900 really help? Expectations are that an A380-900 wi
170 RoseFlyer : I definitely agree with this point that the A380 does not add that much capacity. However, having intimate knowledge of UA's management, route struct
171 AirlineCritic : Chasing yields is a fine strategic choice. It can also be called chasing higher end customers. However, the number of passengers and the market share
172 RoseFlyer : That makes a lot of sense. Although it somewhat implies that larger market share directly correlates with lower CASM. While it does, I think UA recog
173 YTZ : No offence taken. Spirited discussions are fun. That's what we're all here for. You didn't quite get my point. The reality is that places like the UK
174 Aircellist : Very sorry... So long, friend...
175 AeroWesty : I don't believe your figures really work because they don't allow for price elasticity, the availability of aircraft to meet the mission, the cyclica
176 YTZ : I've always wondered why UA and DL even bother with an NRT hub. Could this intra-Asia flying not be left to their alliance partners? And that's the o
177 YTZ : Putting the arguments simply (or rather my simple perspective)....The US carriers have long-haul fleets that are about the same size as their internat
178 AirlineCritic : Yes, of course. My theory was simple, brought up as an analysis of the higher yield strategy. There are plenty of other factors, as you bring up: mix
179 Post contains images AeroWesty : Which is why the CX example is important when discussing UA, who seems to be heading in a similar direction. They're still able to pursue the higher
180 AirlineCritic : Sure. And direct flights are a huge convenience factor for the business flyer. And that's a fine strategy, as well. In general, an airline may choose
181 boilerla : When [PM]UA placed the order for the 788 and A350, their fleet manager made the quote that UA wanted to operate only 2 widebody types going forward; t
182 T5towbar : As I said before, you would have to expand the taxiways and ramp space. Unless Airbus has nearly some spare coin (which he PA does not have right now
183 gigneil : They're going to have made like a billion dollars in profit this year. How's that for synergistics? NS
184 washingtonian : From your analysis, sounds like United is an optimal positon going forward: 787s and A-350s to replace the bulk of its 747/767/777 fleet in the comin
185 par13del : When you consider the billions that is being made on baggage fees from the domestic route, is shrinking their domestic network to only provide feed f
186 FriendlySkies : Doesn't PMUA have 50 options each for 787 and A350? That is more than enough to replace the entire widebody fleet and then some.
187 YTZ : And I'm fairly sure that UA's planners and executives did the math and decided that offering more direct flights makes sense. Some of their critics i
188 AngMoh : Have fun dreaming. This is not going to happen. The 787 is not such a huge leap over 767-300ER and 332 that the world is going to change in a signifi
189 dfambro : Time will tell. BOS is FINALLY getting direct NRT service, this coming April, thanks to the 787. So, one of the plane's first routes is a new route.
190 United727 : I love the bickering and augmentative natured individuals this forum brings out. One way or another, its either gonna happen (the 380 purchase) or it
191 flipdewaf : A relatively young culture that has detached itself from traditional class systems and so shows social standing through attainment of material goods?
192 ual777uk : IMHO I think it will be a cold day in hell before we see UA order the A380. I am an advocate of saying "never say never " where airlines are concerned
193 Post contains images airbazar : It's not just at the other end. ORD and EWR are incredibly congested. Flying thru these hubs in winter may get yo to your destination, or not. SFO on
194 Post contains images ual777uk : This is true and I was not one of them but of course AA had to buy NB aircraft due to the aging fleet they had and got a great deal from Airbus. UA d
195 T5towbar : Isn't Terminal A a more pressing need right now? Plus, a new inline baggage system is being built at C-4. Any info on the cost of that project? As al
196 Revelation : Let's see, the 787-8 is bigger than the 767-400, has something like 20%+ better fuel burn and lots more range, and has been ordered in huge numbers,
197 United Airline : Things can/might have changed after the merger.
198 Cerecl : I think he meant that how we travel will not change to a great extent. The ~800 787 ordered will not all be used to do thin routes. I actually agree
199 boilerla : Out of all those airports, only EWR is slot restricted, and f they wanted to, UA could reduce some flying that is currently on multiple frequencies a
200 par13del : There are two issues on the US sides, congestion and slots, the FAA "requested" some "voluntary" reductions in ORD a couple years ago and some slots
201 AngMoh : For US airlines, Delta has 18 on order with delivery postponed indefinitely UA has 60 767 average age 14 years, with 50 787s on order with delivery t
202 STT757 : The UA 787s are not necessarily 767 replacements, for instance the first announced 787 route for UA is IAH-AKL. That's a new route, there will be oth
203 Revelation : Given that PMCO is not a jumbo jet operator and PMUA has already stated they are downsizing from 744 to A350, it's pretty clear to me that the change
204 airbazar : I'm not that fatalistic in my opinion. They will survive. The question is, can they make more money with a small fleet of A380's? I think the answer
205 ikramerica : Despite JL wanting to sell them, I don't see UA getting A380s. Despite it being the airline I fly most now, and my home airport being LAX where I migh
206 par13del : Larger size a/c in terms of replacing RJ's with something larger, like 738's or A321, even an occasional 767/787 size a/c, I agree that dehubbing is
207 ukoverlander : Nicely put. It's amazing how rational thought and sensible analysis can get so lost. The lack of objectivity displayed in some of these posts is so t
208 Post contains links Revelation : Very rude comment. The "insider" on this thread has an excellent track record. You own an apology, IMHO. And you might as well hear what United's Pre
209 ikramerica : Yes, because it's so rational to disparage anyone who dares not agree with this line of thinking? Please... Seriously, this has been discussed to dea
210 Cerecl : The question is: Is there sufficient load for regular flights between individual second-tier hubs? My guess is that there is not (or at least not a g
211 Stitch : If the trip costs for the 787 and A350 are favorable enough, they could make the routes economically viable even at "lower" load factors.
212 RoseFlyer : I guess working in management at an airline and quoting directly what was said by the leadership via press releases and communicating what was said d
213 Cerecl : Sure, I don't doubt that. I am doubting whether there will be many routes between second-tier hubs that have sufficient traffic to make even 787 or A
214 T5towbar : Problem is, who is going to fly them? Ah, there's the rub................
215 par13del : Makes no difference who flies them, RJ's are not economical and they are expected to be replaced, everything we see coming down the pipe now are larg
216 PM : An argument that is somewhat undermined by the expected arrival of a large fleet of A350s. For the record, they only just make it into the top five.
217 gigneil : They are number two. Not only just make it. NS
218 PM : Ah, if you add the CO ones.
219 gigneil : There is no CO, only Zuul. Seriously, there's no longer an airline named Continental according to the FAA all those 777s are on the UA registry now! N
220 aerokiwi : Agreed, but unfortunately you go on to discredit your own stand of reasonableness by claiming... So Boeing "fanboys" are lacking in objectivity but A
221 gigneil : I will add myself to the doubtful on VLAs list. I also believe that the A350-1000, since we have on many accounts heard from their management they wis
222 PM : Fair enough! I'd actually 'merged' them mentally when it was announced but then I got confused by subsequent threads here that still acted as if they
223 gigneil : Yeah the separation now is strictly IT systems - that's actually the hardest part, from what I hear. NS
224 YTZ : Thank heavens for a reasonable perspective. You should excuse the nattering nabobs. I believe they ordered the A359, didn' t they? What I am curious
225 Stitch : They did, but it is widely believed that the contract allows UA to change which model of A350 they actually take delivery of when that production slo
226 RoseFlyer : UA wanted to maintain a relationship with both Airbus and Boeing. Both airplanes promise lower operating costs. United ordered the 787-8 as it was th
227 airbazar : It makes all the difference because of clauses in every pilot's union. Bigger jets must be flown by mainline crews and therefore they are a lot more
228 something : I would believe UA's network to be diverse enough that this is not a relevant factor. Look at LH for example, they don't even operate their A32X flee
229 dfambro : I think it was a smart move, but I recall when the RFP went out it was to be winner-take-all. If they ever go VLA (and I 'm with the group that think
230 Post contains images astuteman : Oh, they might... As a check for understanding, were these the comments that were made when the A350 order was placed, which if I recall correctly we
231 RoseFlyer : Yes they were before the merger and I believe that is one of the points John Leahy is making.
232 Post contains links STT757 : In VLA news Newark Airport (EWR) just received a waiver from the FAA to allow 747-8I operations. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ew_larger_boei
233 ikramerica : Wingspan difference is significant. So is length. 748 is a bit longer, A380 is much wider. At EWR, wider is the problem, not longer. A380 is over 35
234 boilerla : PMUA's order was firmed for the 788, but they also upped the number of options to 50 when the order w as finalized (up from 25). I imagine those can
235 Carls : Do you have any evidence they are trying to get rid of their A350 order? This is the kind of statemnt that make me laugh, a company that invest milli
236 vfw614 : One of the reasons why the A380 is attractive for the Europe to Asia v.v. market is that there is simply just a very narrow time of the day during wh
237 AADC10 : The 744s were not a mistake. They were the only aircraft that could operate some of the Pacific routes under the late 1980s ETOPS rules that were in
238 Post contains links rdh3e : "The following EETC Tranche ratings have been affirmed and remain in force: ..United Air Lines, Inc. .Series 2007-1A, at Baa2 .Series 2007-1B, at Ba2
239 United1 : It may interest you that UAs credit rating is higher than its peers. Financing is no impediment to any aircraft deal UA works out with Airbus or Boei
240 ukoverlander : Perhaps higher than it's peers in the aviation business but in the business world in general these ratings are far from stellar. That seems to be an
241 rdh3e : How's this: If AMR could finance a deal for several hundred aircraft, even though it was a virtual certainty that they were headed for Chapter 11. Th
242 United1 : Oh totally agreed...no US major is considered investment grade anymore ...I need to double check on WN but if I remember right even they don't carry
243 YVRLTN : There is sufficient evidence from the carriers that have the A380 in service that operating the type seems to grow the market, or at least their marke
244 boilerla : People don't switch because of the plane flying it. They switch based on price, and to a certain degree, nationality. People in the US will prefer fl
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