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FL To Begin SAT – CUN/MEX 5/24 & SNA – SJD/MEX 6/3  
User currently offlinesan88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 115 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

FL (Airtran) received DOT approval and will begin service SAT to CUN/MEX starting May 24, 2012

SNA to SJD/MEX will start June 3, 2012

To accommodate New FL service into SNA, FL will start one daily roundtrip between SNA and SFO/LAS.

Cheers!

http://southwest.investorroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1556


sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Since SNA is slot restricted I assume WN will lose a flight on SNA-LAS/SFO but currently the FL flights are just an addition.

The SAT-CUN route operates 2467 if anyone's curious.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

We already had a thread about this when the routes were first announced a couple weeks back.
WN/FL Extends Sked--New Intl/Domestic Routes (by atrude777 Nov 13 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting FL787 (Reply 1):
Since SNA is slot restricted I assume WN will lose a flight on SNA-LAS/SFO but currently the FL flights are just an addition.

No, SWA was awarded additional slots by the airport to make the routes possible as part of an incentive program to spur Mexico service.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4274 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

I know the international flights don't use WN's existing slots. I'm curious about FL's SFO and LAS flights out of SNA. I'd be surprised if SNA is giving them an extra 2 slot pairs to fly those routes.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

I assume the new Mexico flights from SNA will be on the 717 then, not the 73G?

AFAIK, the 717 is authorized to do a normal climb profile out of SNA. The noise abatement procedure isn't required.


User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):

All these flights are loaded as 73G.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting FL787 (Reply 3):
I know the international flights don't use WN's existing slots. I'm curious about FL's SFO and LAS flights out of SNA. I'd be surprised if SNA is giving them an extra 2 slot pairs to fly those routes.

SWA formally received 3 extra slots for the 2012 schedule year. Two must be used for Mexico.

Additionally the airport authority has 1 additional free slot as part of the Mexico incentive program, however it can be utilized for other ops in the interim per the airport authorities discretion.

[Edited 2011-12-05 10:47:42]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4070 times:
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This will be SNA's first international flights correct???

User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4042 times:

The new SNA schedule is self-contained with two aircraft:

SFO-SNA-MEX-SNA-SFO and LAS-SNA-SJD-SNA-LAS are the lines of flying, although currently nothing is actually scheduled as a thru flight via SNA. (They have connections loaded for sale.)

The aircraft RON at SFO and LAS as of the current schedule. I thought perhaps SNA-LAS and LAS-SNA would operate as thru flights to/from ATL, BWI or MKE, but not currently. There are no valid connections SNA-BWI, ATL-SNA, or either direction to/from MKE. I'm sure the planes will rotate back east regularly via their overnights in SFO and LAS, of course.


The SAT-CUN/MEX schedule is not currently woven into the rest of the schedule, so either there will be some other changes or there will be a lot of idle time in SAT. One aircraft leaves SAT at 8:35an and returns by 2:50pm. The other leaves SAT at 11:30am and returns 4:30pm.

Perhaps by that point there will be code-sharing between FL and WN and there will be something useful for those planes to do when they're not flying to MEX and CUN.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Great to see these bold new routes coming to fruition!

Quoting san88 (Thread starter):
FL (Airtran) received DOT approval and will begin service SAT to CUN/MEX starting May 24, 2012

So, it seems that SAT will function as the international gateway to the heart of the WN network: Texas. The two primary hubs at DAL and HOU cannot offer any international flights; nonstop international service from DAL is illegal per Wright Amendment (even after 2014) whilst HOU lacks FIS facilities to process international arrivals. They could have easily routed DAL/HOU traffic through the sizable focus cities at international-capable SAT, AUS, or even MSY, however of those 3 options SAT is the obvious choice as it offers the largest local catchment area/O&D and by far the largest Latino contingent.

SAT-CUN will do great with a WN codeshare, but would be disastrous without it. I am assuming that the full-fledged FL/WN codeshare will be in place by then, as there are other new FL routes (DEN-CAK/DAY come to mind) starting around the same time that will rely on it too. Demand for this route must be pretty significant as both DL and UA/CO have found reason to fly it in recent years, though I don't know if either carrier still operates it. In any case, I have no doubt that FL/WN will do extremely well to an ever-popular leisure (beach) market from one of their strongholds.

SAT-MEX is quite another story. This hasn't been flown by a U.S. carrier in years (CO was the last to do it, dropping it long before this recession began), but remains very well-served by a host of Mexican carriers. CUN is easy for the U.S. LCCs to serve - it is virtually 100% U.S.-originating traffic that knows the airline brand, books online, etc. MEX, however, has a lot of ethnic traffic that may not speak English, know the WN brand whatsoever, or have a computer and credit card to pay for tickets, fees, etc. As far as I know, no U.S. LCC has ever even attempted service to this challenging market. Also, I believe MEX is slot-restricted - will FL/WN be able to jump in and get slots corresponding to their proposed schedules?

Quoting san88 (Thread starter):
SNA to SJD/MEX will start June 3, 2012

A pair of very interesting niche routes. I have no doubts that SNA-SJD will do amazingly well, but MEX has its inherent challenges as I said earlier. In any case, at least with these routes WN won't face any direct competition. Of course, there is significant competition from nearby LAX. I wonder, though, if Mexican carriers aren't trying to get SNA slots to start their own services...

Quoting san88 (Thread starter):
To accommodate New FL service into SNA, FL will start one daily roundtrip between SNA and SFO/LAS.

Interesting...I wonder if WN will have to end 4 of their own daily flights to make room for these new services, or if they got some more slots/capacity allocation from the airport authority.

In any case, it appears that WN has its sights set on Mexico. I wonder if they will continue to try for unserved/underserved niche routes, in which case we could see transborder service begin from the likes of AUS, ABQ, SMF, OAK, SJC, and LAS. Conversely, they could start linking their biggest Western hubs with Mexican markets - assaulting one of F9's last strongholds from DEN and giving US a big headache from PHX   . Fortunately for VX, AS, and UA, all of the authorities from SFO/LAX to key Mexican beach/leisure and VFR/business markets are in use, so WN can't suddenly start flying those routes..



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently onlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3982 times:

Surprising that WN (okay, FL) is starting MEX with two cities somewhat off the radar of what is to be expected.

SNA, even though part of the Los Angeles area, is not LAX, and with SAT, maybe one would have thought that PHX, LAS, MDW, ATL, or a couple of other airports would have been up the ladder higher here. I suppose that the agreements between Mexico and the U.S probably have some to do with it.


User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3924 times:

Looks like both flight crews will be from ATL. Both crews will do a three day trips. TRIP 1. day 1 ATL-LAS overnight. day 2 LAS-SNA-SJD-LAS overnight. day 3 LAS-ATL. TRIP 2. day 1 ATL-SFO overnight. day 2 SFO-SNA-MEX-SNA overnight. day 3 SNA-SFO-ATL redeye..anyone at FL confirm this.thanks wnfg  


my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineSanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3914 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 9):
MEX, however, has a lot of ethnic traffic that may not speak English, know the WN brand whatsoever, or have a computer and credit card to pay for tickets, fees, etc. As far as I know, no U.S. LCC has ever even attempted service to this challenging market. Also, I believe MEX is slot-restricted - will FL/WN be able to jump in and get slots corresponding to their proposed schedules?

Actually NK has succesfully been serving FLL - TLC (which is 60 mins from MEX) successfully since June. They also serve GUA or MGA which are even more ethnic than MEX and do not have "computers" or "credit Cards" since 2007.

FL will do amazing in this route, MEX is a gold mine.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3896 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 7):
This will be SNA's first international flights correct???

Non Canada yes.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 9):
I wonder, though, if Mexican carriers aren't trying to get SNA slots to start their own services...

$300,000 was on the table and Southwest acted.

There still is a single slot available for Mexico service with some money behind it if someone like Volaris wants it.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 9):
Interesting...I wonder if WN will have to end 4 of their own daily flights to make room for these new services, or if they got some more slots/capacity allocation from the airport authority.

see...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
SWA formally received 3 extra slots for the 2012 schedule year. Two must be used for Mexico.

Additionally the airport authority has 1 additional free slot as part of the Mexico incentive program, however it can be utilized for other ops in the interim per the airport authorities discretion.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3771 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
SWA formally received 3 extra slots for the 2012 schedule year. Two must be used for Mexico.

Additionally the airport authority has 1 additional free slot as part of the Mexico incentive program, however it can be utilized for other ops in the interim per the airport authorities discretion.

I understand that but those slots have already been accounted for so the slots for the SNA-LAS and SNA-SFO flights have to come from somewhere.

2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award (by LAXintl Sep 29 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks to your thread, we know that WN should have 51 slot pairs but currently they have scheduled 53 flights. That is why I am wondering what will be reduced. I suppose WN could try and get that last Mexico slot and use it to LAS or SFO but I'm not sure how SNA would feel about that. Either way they need at least one slot pair from somewhere.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3714 times:

These routes should be all-stars for WN assuming there are not any res-issues. Good for them!   

[Edited 2011-12-05 13:58:20]


We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3714 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
There still is a single slot available for Mexico service with some money behind it if someone like Volaris wants it.

Think AS will jump on it for something like SNA-PVR?


User currently offlinegmcc From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 15):
2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award (by LAXintl Sep 29 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks to your thread, we know that WN should have 51 slot pairs but currently they have scheduled 53 flights. That is why I am wondering what will be reduced. I suppose WN could try and get that last Mexico slot and use it to LAS or SFO but I'm not sure how SNA would feel about that. Either way they need at least one slot pair from somewhere.

The county held back 3 slots for possible reallocation in Jun 2012 for carriers starting service to Mexico. See Board of Supervisors meeting item #25 at the following link

http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_Sam/Sam11_08_2011.htm


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3654 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 9):
I have no doubts that SNA-SJD will do amazingly well, but MEX has its inherent challenges as I said earlier.

I'm not so sure; this is WN's first time internationally, and it's in AS' neighborhood, where WN does not fare well. With VX/AS to the north at LAX and AS at SAN, WN is going to find it very difficult to get a decent fare. Same goes for MEX--if SNAMEX is still around in six months I'll be surprised.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting gmcc (Reply 17):

Again, I understand that but, put simply, WN received 2 extra slot pairs but are adding 4 roundtrip flights: one each to SJD, MEX, SFO, and LAS. The numbers don't work unless WN reduces their schedule by 2 flights.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3535 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 11):

SFO-SNA-MEX-SNA That would be pushing legality.

SFO-SNA 1.2
SNA-MEX 3.4
MEX-SNA 3.4 (my estimations)


If built correct it's legal and sure a hell of a productive day.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Rumor is WN was awarded 3 more slots next year 2 are being used for SMF and SJC. So the third is being used I would guess there using one slot for either SFO or LAS. FL was awarded 3 slots total with two dedicated just for Mexico service. And the other for aircraft crew relocation. Rumor I'm hearing from friends in SNA is they were told next year once pilots and flight crews finish SLI on the FA side and international and over water training SNA may see two more Mexico flights late next year. FL SFO and LAS flights also are rumored to be short lived and replaced with 2 ALT flights . Now this is all non factual info just rumors and speculation of fellow and other airline nerds. But this is a NEW WN so who knows what's going to happen but it's sure is fun being a armchair CEO and wannabe schedule planner hahaha enjoy wnfg  


my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 20):

Pilot doing the trips will be on 4 day trips from my under standing. So keeping them legal not a issue
The flight attns can have longer duty days than pilots unfortunately. Wnfg



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 22):

I understand. But SFO-SNA-MEX-SNA would be hard to keep under 8 hrs. flying which is their legality. But as we know with AA, the times can always be tweaked a little.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinejetMARC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
SFO-SNA-MEX-SNA That would be pushing legality.

SFO-SNA 1.2
SNA-MEX 3.4
MEX-SNA 3.4 (my estimations)


If built correct it's legal and sure a hell of a productive day.
Quoting as739x (Reply 23):
I understand. But SFO-SNA-MEX-SNA would be hard to keep under 8 hrs. flying which is their legality. But as we know with AA, the times can always be tweaked a little.

I dont think it's possible. With a 45 minute show time in SFO, plus fog delays in SFO, turn time in SNA, and longer flight times to MEX and an Int'l turn, the pilots would time out.

SNA-MEX is 1517mi according to Great Circle Mapper and JFK-CUN is 1555m... at my airline, we show in our bid packet the JFK-CUN turn as a 8:05 credit. JFK-CUN is 4:24, 1 hour turn, and CUN-JFK is 3:41



"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
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