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AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25388 posts, RR: 49
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 46574 times:

Since we have active discussions going hypothesizing what the future of AA might end up being, or discussion things like delayed AE spinoff, lets have a thread covering the events and process of the corporations actual Ch-11 case.


To this end, today was a big initial day in the process with the required creditors committee being formed by the US Justice Dept. trustee assigned to the case.

3 of the 9 seats went to AA unions.

The selected creditor committee members are:
o AFL-CIO
o Allied Pilots Association
o Association of Professional Flight Attendants
o Bank of New York Melon
o Boeing Capital
o Hewlett-Packard Enterprises
o Manufacturers and Traders Trust Company
o Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
o Wilmington Trust Company.

Between the 9 members of the creditor committee, they hold about 2/3 of AA’s listed $29.6bil in debt and unfunded liabilities.


Court Docket – 11-15463


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
255 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 46437 times:

Hey Laxintl thanks for the thread. I have question though, All but one of the creditors makes sense to me. How does Hewlett Packard enterprises come in to play in the AA Bankruptcy?


Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlinecoopdogyo From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 46387 times:

HP and AA have quite a close relationship. In 2009 HP and American teamed up to develop a reservation systems. HP must have provided financing as part of the the deal which is why they are on the list of largest creditors.

User currently offlinerjm777ual From UK - England, joined Nov 2011, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 46326 times:

Hmmm HP as in Hewlett packard? i didn't know this!


Greetings from Dulles!
User currently offlinegenybustrvlr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 46312 times:

Could have gone better for AA. Employee interests are not significantly outnumbered. Hopefully the financiers are all aligned...

o AFL-CIO
o Allied Pilots Association
o Association of Professional Flight Attendants
o Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation


o Bank of New York Melon
o Boeing Capital
o Hewlett-Packard Enterprises
o Manufacturers and Traders Trust Company
o Wilmington Trust Company.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 46269 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Bank of New York Melon

Sounds sweet!  


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 45874 times:

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 4):
Employee interests are not significantly outnumbered.

1/3 employees ($10Billion) and the other 2/3 the others

They are all going to be fighting each other for whatever cash does remain. If their interest were aligned, the wouldn't need separate committees. Throw in AA's proposals to exit BK and the judge has a lot of decisions to make. The unions have to negotiate new contracts as pat of a new business plan, before the judge will let AMR exit BK.

Though I think the 2/3 creditors will see good value in receiving equity in the new AMR, I think only if the labor contracts and the rest of the new business plan looks good for AMR to be profitable and successful post BK. If the new AMR proposal is weak, with labor refusing to make strong concessions, the remaining creditors, which out vote the unions, might not accept new equity and instead ask the judge for an asset sale.

And since AMR has no debtor in possession financing in place, the amount of time AMR can remain in BK protection is limited to the cash AMR has. When cash runs too low, vendors will require immediate cash payments and/or cash reserve deposits. At that point, they won't be able to fuel their planes anymore and it'll be Pan Am time. I hope labor realizes this. Time is limited.


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 635 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 45651 times:

First of all, thanks for opening this thread. Exactly what we needed to keep the focus on the major milestones in the bk process.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Though I think the 2/3 creditors will see good value in receiving equity in the new AMR, I think only if the labor contracts and the rest of the new business plan looks good for AMR to be profitable and successful post BK. If the new AMR proposal is weak, with labor refusing to make strong concessions, the remaining creditors, which out vote the unions, might not accept new equity and instead ask the judge for an asset sale.

Agreed. I do think that the plan AA is presenting is bound to be strong, since the major competitive drag on AA have been the debt payments, pension payments, and other labor costs (unproductive work force). Assuming the judge is on board with AA's labor contract proposals, everything should be peachy. Afterall, the judge can impose work contracts, so in my mind, as long as AA is putting forward labor contract proposals that are in line with AA's legacy competitors, I suspect the unions will not be able to negotiate for much other than equity...


User currently offlineGizmoNC From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 45598 times:

I also was curious about seeing HP listed as well. Anyone have any details about what the deal was between AA and HP correct me if I am wrong but at one point AA (AMR) owned Sabre. I always thought that Sabre was the cadillac of airline reservatons systems. AMR sells Sabre and then tried to join with HP and that goes south. AA trouble started after 9/11 and this was 8 years later. AA was in deep dodo at the time. Sounds like this was another failed attempt from the previous management which blew a huge amount of cash.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 45453 times:

If HP takes an active part and shows interest into getting the company and its targets running again, this is a sensationally good news since there is a chance the greedy vampires who with their ridicoulous profits and interest rates are the reason for AA finacial problems ( and all of the current economical crisis ) are not in the majority.

Boeings role may be interesting, they want to sell MAX instaed of the NEOs...


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25388 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 45313 times:

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 4):
Could have gone better for AA. Employee interests are not significantly outnumbered. Hopefully the financiers are all aligned...

I'm not sure -- you have essentially three bond holder/creditors and two industry vendors.

The creditors obviously will look to cover their balances to the highest percentage possible, while the vendors will look to keep AMR as an ongoing client and make as much money from it as possible.

I could easily see Boeing and HP aligned with labor if they come up with some deals that keeps the cash cow running for years to come regardless of what the bond holders might want to recover today.

As APA said today, it was a major achievement to secure strong labor representation on the committee and that it bodes well to help ensure the appropriate consideration is given to subjects effecting employees.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 45265 times:

Wonder if APA position is still DL+ $1.... Given BK their position is now about DL + $0.33.
They better wake up and smell the coffee! They are not fighting Arpey anymore.


User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 45209 times:

There was an article that I came across today regarding this:

From the APA:

"There hasn't been a bankruptcy yet where the employees haven't taken the brunt of the concessions that end up coming out of the backside,” said First Officer Scott Shankland, secretary-treasurer of the Allied Pilots Association. “So this step of us getting on the creditors committee is a great first step in ensuring that we're going to be able to look out for the interests of our pilots."

"Our job is to defend the interests of the pilots to the greatest extent possible,” he said. “But we also want to return the airline to profitability. We want this airline to emerge from bankruptcy as the great carrier that it once was."

From a BK analyst:

"Dallas bankruptcy attorney Mark Ralston said employees will certainly “take a hit” in the bankruptcy process -- with everything from pensions to contract and even flight benefits up in the air."

"I've seen in other airline cases where the unsecured creditors don't get paid in any cash,” he said. “They get, basically, stock in the new airline. So there's going to be a reorganized American Airlines out there, and all the unsecured creditors might get paid in shares."

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/135072263.html



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25388 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 45122 times:

AA announced some management changes. Horton is cleaning house installing his own lieutenants.

Retiring December 31st.
-Robert W. Reding , Executive Vice President – Operations
-Mark L. Burdette , Vice President – Employee Relations
-Monte Ford , Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer (CIO)

Promotions
-James B. Ream is named Senior Vice President – Operations, assuming additional responsibility for Flight Operations, Operations Planning & Performance, Operations Finance & Planning, and the Safety, Security and Environmental Departments, in addition to his current role overseeing Maintenance & Engineering (M&E)
-Denise Lynn , currently Vice President, Flight Service, will move to the role of Vice President Employee Relations
- Maya Leibman , currently President of the AAdvantage® Loyalty Program, is promoted to Senior Vice President and CIO
-Beverly Goulet is named Chief Restructuring Officer, in addition to her continuing role as Vice President Corporate Development and Treasurer


News:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Americ...nnounces-prnews-327754597.html?x=0



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25388 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 44010 times:

Regarding the creditors committee I had someone remind me of how things were at United.

They had a 13 member creditor committee with labor only having 2 seats.

Seems to me the composition of AMRs committee will give labor a huge voice in the process in comparison.


And now AMR put out a pretty bland statement about the formation of the committee:

We look forward to working with the Committee appointed by the US Trustee.

An American Airlines with an industry competitive cost and debt structure is in the best interests of the unsecured creditors represented by the Committee and all of the Company's stakeholders.

We are committed to working as quickly and efficiently as possible to appropriately restructure American so that it can emerge from Chapter 11 well-positioned to assure the Company's long term viability and reaffirm its position as a leader in the airline industry.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 43895 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 7):
Afterall, the judge can impose work contracts

I don't think it's that simple.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
while the vendors will look to keep AMR as an ongoing client and make as much money from it as possible.

If vendors get too little in equity and think they get much more in a liquidation, they might ask the judge for that. Vendors know that someone will take AA's place eventually, be it a post BK AA or some other entity.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
As APA said today

Union leadership always does good, according to them. But it doesn't matter how many committees they have, but rather how much $$ they are each owed relative to other creditors. Comparing AMR bk to other BKs can be misleading, because every BK is different with a very different set of circumstances. The BK laws have also changed a lot. One thing has not changed, the need for money to continue operating.

If labor digs their heels in deep and drags their feet and drags this out, AMR could run out of money to operate. It's not impossible.


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 635 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 43428 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 15):
If labor digs their heels in deep and drags their feet and drags this out, AMR could run out of money to operate. It's not impossible.

I refuse to believe that the employees can cause AMR to liquidate with 6 other vested interest parties at the table and in the face of overwhelming evidence that competing carriers' employees are more productive, as well as a judge who is able to impose contracts and terms in this bk process.

If you have particular reason to doubt the ability of the judge to impose contracts and terms, please share.


User currently offlineslvrblt From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 42875 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 16):
......in the face of overwhelming evidence that competing carriers' employees are more productive, as well as a judge who is able to impose contracts and terms in this bk process.

If you have particular reason to doubt the ability of the judge to impose contracts and terms, please share.

Exactly correct. Precisely as it should be and hopefully the judge will look very unfavorably on a single labor group that continues to want all the labor dollars they can squeeze, at the expense of the company, and other employees.
Newsflash to pilots - there's only so many bucks a company can spend on overall payroll and continue to operate if that workforce is not efficient. As usual, the APA mentions only what's good for THEIR members.....they forget EVERYONE, not just them, gave up lots of things post 9-11. No, for them, it's ME, ME, ME. They sort of forget the reservation agents, ticket agents, gate agents, and others that make those planes they fly have fannies in seats and bags on board.
I wasn't a particular fan of Arpey, but I remember he had said more than once it wasn't employee pay he considered to be a problem; it was the PRODUCTIVITY those dollars bought.



..everything works out in the end.
User currently onlineklkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42736 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 16):
I refuse to believe that the employees can cause AMR to liquidate with 6 other vested interest parties at the table and in the face of overwhelming evidence that competing carriers' employees are more productive, as well as a judge who is able to impose contracts and terms in this bk process.

If you have particular reason to doubt the ability of the judge to impose contracts and terms, please share.

The judge definitely has the right to impose a new contract but could AA afford any strikes at this time?

It is still in AA's best interest to try and negotiate a contract. If you look at the most recent BK filings by DL, NW, US and UA they all negotiated their labor agreements and did not have to resort to having a jusge impose a contract. If you think's AA's labor relations are bad now just think of what they would be like after that.


User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42684 times:

Quoting klkla (Reply 18):
The judge definitely has the right to impose a new contract but could AA afford any strikes at this time?

They would be sent by to work by the government like they have in the past if they strike during Chapter 11.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineslvrblt From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42622 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
They would be sent by to work by the government like they have in the past if they strike during Chapter 11.

Absolutely; President Clinton did it before when they struck. That strike lasted about 5 minutes before the Executive Order came down.
It wouldn't take an Executive Order this time. The order to continue to work would come from the Judge's Bench, and being in contempt of court = instant jail time.



..everything works out in the end.
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42606 times:

Quoting slvrblt (Reply 20):

Really..... the whole company going to jail?


User currently offlineslvrblt From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42574 times:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 21):
Really..... the whole company going to jail?
Quoting xdlx (Reply 21):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
They would be sent by to work by the government like they have in the past if they strike during Chapter 11.

Hmmm. Follow the thought. Strike.....judicial defiance.....labor workgroup guilty of said defiance....hope that helps you.



..everything works out in the end.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42486 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

+67% increase in common stock today.   

User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 42327 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 16):
If you have particular reason to doubt the ability of the judge to impose contracts and terms, please share.


§ 1113. Rejection of collective bargaining agreements
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_11_00001113----000-.html
The judge has no such ability. However, the judge does have the ability to cancel the existing contract 100% in its entirety, but he can not impose a new one nor an amended the old one against labor objections. If a contract is cancelled, I guess they could strike, since there is no contract and therefore no breach of a contract if they do. And aren't the pilots out of contract anyway, or was it extended?

Both sides need to cooperate here. Only interim changes are permitted by the trustee, awaiting the final ruling to either reject the old contract in its entirety - or keep it, in its entirety.


25 Revelation : Concessions that end up coming out the backside? Oy! Seems someone should proofread this stuff before they send it out....
26 xdlx : How dare you ....he is the Sec-Treasurer of the best union in the entire industry!
27 tommytoyz : Quote: "Courts have recognized the employees' right to strike in situations where debtors have obtained court orders rejecting collective bargaining a
28 yellowtail : What are the odds that Parker and Co come up with a sweet proposal for AA that includes (US) shedding its "west" problems (my bet would be to NK or B6
29 Post contains images commavia : "Huge voice?" Please. There are various vested interests aligned to support AMR's successful exit from reorganization because there are literally bil
30 genybustrvlr : Which is exactly the reason for my comment. Labor is potentially way over represented IMO and will be an impediment to meaningful cuts.
31 Post contains images caliboy78 : I'm inclined to say that all the unions are there to try and make the process as painful as they can possibly can. I'm not too savvy in the whole BK p
32 HPRamper : What "west" problems?
33 MasseyBrown : Head of the PBGC is ... drum roll ... none other than little Joshie Gotbaum, the sticky-fingered, court-appointed trustee of Hawaiian during their ba
34 tommytoyz : No. The unions have a very large say for several reasons: 1. They are large creditors ($10 Billion) 2. The Judge can not impose permanent labor contr
35 yellowtail : The two pilot factions. If you could sell off a portion of the airline (i.e the west, PHX) to someone like B6 or AS....then those pilot union problem
36 LAXdude1023 : Technically, they can strike. But they would more than likely be ordered back to work. Clinton did it in the 90s and given they are in chapter 11, I
37 xdlx : Are they under two certificates still?
38 PIEAvantiP180 : Can someone explain how much extra cash AMR is burning on a daily/monthly basis now that they are in bankruptcy then they would be using on regular op
39 HPRamper : The pilot union problems should go away in a matter of time anyway as the court has already ruled against USAPA, and as the airline has made plenty o
40 Coronado : Can AA's credit card processors require cash hold-backs now that AA has filed Ch 11, similarly to what First Data did to Frontier 3 years ago? AA annu
41 FlyASAGuy2005 : Its directly tied to their cash on hand from what another member explained to me in another thread and according to the agreement they're not there y
42 Post contains images AAR90 : In its simplest form AA (the bankrupt company) and its creditors (essentially every entity it has a contract with) are required to bargain in "good f
43 Post contains images seabosdca : For those with no exposure to the process... here's a description of building an airplane that captures the wrinkles about as well. It's mind-numbing
44 par13del : Reality is that if the judge does mandate that the striking workers go back to work they always have the right to resign from the union and or quit t
45 xdlx : Two VP & one CIO annunced their retirements today effective DEC31. The exodus has started......
46 LAXintl : American Airlines goes back to court today, the first time since its initial BK filing hearing last month. On the docket today are over 200 motions fr
47 Post contains links LAXdude1023 : Yep. American got pre approval to recieve a batch of new planes in 2012 from the BK court judge. http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Jud...-Receive-New-
48 michman : I don't think the NW FA's ever approved the contract they were working under during the NW bankruptcy. My understanding is their PFAA negotiated a ne
49 Post contains links norcal : Found this information in another forum: Here's a question, why does AMR own a private residence located at 16 Cottesmore Gardens London W8? Which exe
50 Post contains links norcal : A quick internet search found this article, I'm glad the new media is finally reporting this stuff: LONDON (Reuters) - Buried deep in American Airline
51 Post contains images Acey559 : I received an email from the Eagle MEC last night announcing the furlough of the 20 pilots that started class December 5th. The went home to complete
52 FlyASAGuy2005 : Don't worry Acey, the Delta family will gladly take you. A bunch of new RJ flying in 2012 with LGA gaining hub status.
53 commavia : While I'm certainly not defending or justifying AMR's actions, I think it remains to be seen just how "wasteful" this real estate really was. The exe
54 FlyASAGuy2005 : That is true but the fact of the matter is, everyone is understaffed. Hiring was being held awaiting the outcome of the slot swap. Drawdown or not, t
55 seabosdca : I'll grant you this for the sake of argument, although plenty of other large companies get by with putting their overseas executives in ordinary corp
56 commavia : Absolutely - as I said in my reply. There's no doubt they could have found a far cheaper alternative, but in the heady days of the "early 1990s" when
57 norcal : Really? A $30 million mansion isn't wasteful?!?!? A far cheaper flat could have been purchased or rented if something like this was really needed for
58 LAXdude1023 : When they bought it, it was much cheaper and the airline was profitable. Thats why I say the problem wasnt that they bought it, but rather that they
59 VictorKilo : The sad truth is that the investment in this mansion by AA was a better investment than an investment in AA itself.
60 micstatic : Agree totally wasteful. Although they may make a real estate profit when they flip it, so atleast their is a silver lining. I think AA's management i
61 norcal : Why do you think they are so negative and militant compared to Delta, United, and especially JetBlue and Southwest. One answer: Management If there e
62 micstatic : Don't think anybody is defending management. In fact, I went as far as to call it the worst managed airline in the business. But it's been pointed ou
63 commavia : It wasn't $30M when they bought it. As I already said. No member of AMR management has ever blamed employees for "everything wrong with the company."
64 Post contains images seabosdca : Specifically, the most visible way to take concessions is to forgo bonuses. People don't know the details of bonuses and don't know if options end up
65 norcal : It's still a mansion, which is the point. The mansion is wasteful. Explain to me why a mansion was needed? Who cares if it wasn't $30 million when th
66 commavia : To be honest, I can't. As you might imagine, I wasn't exactly in the meeting twenty years ago where the purchase of this property was approved. Howev
67 micstatic : Not true. Arpey who resisted CH11 in the first place didn't take his golden parachute. There has been quite a bit of turnover in AMR management since
68 norcal : It should have been a reasonable sized flat, not a mansion. The union leadership at AMR has been very out of touch with reality for a while, but how
69 commavia : The union leaders have certainly used the stock options to turn management into villains - that boogie man certainly has helped, no question. But, ag
70 micstatic : He didn't need to. For one, I don't have a pension. Anybody with a brain knows pensions are unsustainable, and possibly a ponzi scheme. Yes, like mos
71 par13del : Was wondering why it took so long for this myth to appear. Companies who are loosing money hire agressive managers to come in and make changes, if th
72 JA : I think that most people analyzing a company with revenues of $20B+ per year don't seem to understand how you make that kind of revenue. The $30M mans
73 Post contains links justplanenutz : Here's a pretty good summary of the AMR executive compensation issue from the hometown newspaper: "Executive pay at American doesn't have much room to
74 Post contains links micstatic : Another disturbing point about the attitudes of come American employees I came across yesturday. Here is an excerpt from the flight attendant group: "
75 MillwallSean : What you dont understand is that there is NO other company that sees the need to invest in a house on that street or in that neighbourhood. No other
76 LAXdude1023 : So, everyone at AA is a victim??? I dont think its the FA's that AA is trying to get more productivity out of. I think its the Pilots.
77 stlgph : crossing the wires this morning -- AMR is looking to lay off 218 workers from Eagle.
78 Post contains images Acey559 : The new-hire class got furloughed and they're in talks with lessors to return all DFW ATRs by the end of this month or sometime in January. No word y
79 Post contains links stlgph : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ompany-may-be-takeover-target.html ...AMR Corp. (AMR) “most certainly” will cut jobs as the parent of Ameri
80 LAXintl : Some various news from this weeks two-day court hearings: o Court affirmed that permanent presiding Judge over the AMR case will be Sean Lane. Judge L
81 justplanenutz : I didn't say Arpey was a victim. But perhaps he's not a villain either.
82 stlgph : update - 223 Eagle pilots & flight attendants may get laid off around the time period of Feb 13th, following the return of the planes in January.[
83 ckfred : One thing to remember is that AA probably needed to entertain people from various entities, whether it was executives from oneworld members, potentia
84 nomorerjs : Having worked for a company that spent two years in Chapter 11 and went from 3,000 employees to 350, I wish AMR the best. They won't be as bad off as
85 Post contains links LAXintl : The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation issued a open letter to AMR in response to some comments from its counsel that it might look to back out of i
86 LAXdude1023 : Yet, it's pretty clear that AA can't go on with the pensions as they are. Something has to give.
87 danfearn77 : I don't usually like this question but seems as I know nothing about chapter 11 or AA's future, here goes (please don't flame me!) Am I safe to book a
88 LAXintl : While I believe AA will be around come next November, its network shape and scale will likely be different. With AA looking to remove aircraft from it
89 StuckInCA : I'm guessing that won't be hard to prove.
90 PHLwok : It's pretty rare for a company to make a run through Chapter 11 and not emerge smaller. Much of that downsizing comes from leveraging bankruptcy's ab
91 Post contains links LAXintl : As previously mentioned the next round of hearings is scheduled for this Thursday. Items scheduled to be heard include: o AMR request for relief and a
92 MasseyBrown : LAXintl, Thanks for your detailed postings. Is there a specific bankruptcy website, as there has been for other airlines? Or is it the court docket si
93 Post contains links realsim : Good news, as it means that AA goes ahead with the their fleet renewal plan. However, the original schedule was to get 28 738s aircraft in 2012, and
94 LAXintl : On Thursday, Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane, approved AMRs request and can proceed with its ongoing Boeing order, and that the carrier can also cancel lea
95 FlyASAGuy2005 : What's your take on that exactly?
96 cslusarc : Why do some foreign creditors have priority over domestic creditors?
97 LAXintl : I don't know but I suspect AMR has investments - could be as mild as speculative fuel hedging to various other things that utilize cash that the US T
98 AeroWesty : Interesting that one of the motions was to get a 45-day extension for reporting cash management activity. The only time I ever worked on a Christmas
99 LAXintl : There are two scheduled hearings in the AMR case this week. o Appointment of claims agent to help register, process and verify the estimated 100,000+
100 mogandoCI : If foreign aviation authorities or creditors aren't paid on time, do they have any right to impound AA aircraft until payments are made ?
101 par13del : I would say yes, however, they would first have to file a legal claim for non-payment and have their legal authorities issue a lein, such legal actio
102 FlyASAGuy2005 : Id guess yes. Look at TLV. The government said they will seize AA assets if they don't pay up on what's owed to facilities and employee bbefore they
103 LAXtoATL : The short answer is yes. It is more complicated then that as there are many different laws and various legal systems in different countries, but the
104 jfk777 : ALL the USA airline that have gone Ch 11 have conintued their iternational ops, the foreign fuel, landing fees and other expenses have been paid so t
105 dirtyfrankd : AA doesn't fly on its own metal to TLV...
106 LAXintl : Indeed. Dont want to delay or bring on the ire of the court due to lack of timeliness in filing required reports. Sure. They can follow their own leg
107 FlyASAGuy2005 : Well, that's exactly what I said and its for a reason. See the above responce.
108 crAAzy : It was my understanding that this amount, while millions of dollars, was not significant enough so that if AA ever did choose to enter back into the
109 LAXintl : A story from back in the day.... American Airlines issued a response on March 8 which confirmed the planned suspension, and added: "Recent speculation
110 LAXtoATL : I am aware of this. But the question that was asked by mogando was IF they didn't make their payments on time could foreign entities have the right s
111 NorthstarBoy : Assuming that TW had just one flight a day to TLV, how can employees who work four hours a day claim anything? and how is it even possible that they'
112 crAAzy : Good to know and thanks for keeping this thread updated! It makes things so much easier to follow. The history is interesting. You also have to wonde
113 n318ea : +1 for Employees as BK Judge is not Burton Lifland.
114 LAXintl : Lets not go off topic as this is a thread is about AA BK process, however I feel its important I answer your false notion. Firstly TWA served Israel
115 Post contains images MasseyBrown : If you can keep this thread narrowly focused, I will nominate you for a Nobel Prize. The mansion in London was fun. Corporations of AMR's age have ge
116 jfklganyc : "On another note I'm thinking AA will be a very strong competitor if alone or stronger and bigger if merged taken over. What are your thoughts." I am
117 ckfred : I can't see AA reducing ORD flying. AA picked up a fair amount of corporate flying in 2000, after the UA pilots staged their sick-out. To reduce ORD
118 STT757 : The obvious is US, while some wish it were B6 that's not happening without a healthy AA making the overtures. B6, while a very successful company, ca
119 Boeing773ER : Well, just because 36 of the 340 planes that US does operate may be considered "old" that is no way to consider the entire fleet. And I flew on US la
120 LAXintl : AA will almost certainly get various forms of merger, asset sale, and divestiture offers while in BK. Tom Horton's letter to employees said this strai
121 dirtyfrankd : Aah my mistake, what I meant to say is that AA had never flown on its on metal to TLV, I didn't realize this was caused by the TWA acquisition. Thank
122 Post contains links SATexan : Expected Development: AMR Shares to be dropped from NYSE trading.... http://www.boston.com/business/artic...s_to_be_dropped_from_nyse_trading/
123 JayBird : Sabre was developed by/jointly between American and IBM in the 1960s. Sabre was spun off as a separate company and American and Sabre were wholly own
124 LAXintl : A single docked item is scheduled for court this week. o Authorization to enter into agreements to employ over 300 US and foreign companies and indivi
125 LAXintl : As part of its preparation for the January 27th hearing, American Airlines filed documents with the court that it will accept and continue to lease 47
126 Post contains links commavia : TheStreet.com published an article today that included quotes from an interview with Laura Glading, President of the APFA (AA's mainline flight attend
127 lightsaber : Due to the pension and other benefit costs, I do not think they are a small piece. I believe the work rules and such have made the F/A's a big part o
128 LAXtoATL : I think it will last. Considering that the new bankruptcy rules have shortened the process it is in everyone's interest to move as quickly as possibl
129 commavia : I'm not so sure. When I look at the overall structural labor cost disadvantage AA faces today relative to its competitors - encompassing not just dir
130 MasseyBrown : An earlier post of LAXIntl noted that AMR requested an extension of the period during which they could reject aircraft leases. Did they get that perm
131 Post contains links miaami : Here is some news on the aircraft leases http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...merican-airlines-says-well-ke.html
132 bmibaby737 : If I'm reading these documents correctly, then it means HSH Nordbank owns, and leases to AMR, N943AN, N928AN and N783AN... and that Bombardier Capital
133 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: The Wall Street Journal American Airlines Updates Employees on Bankruptcy Plan "Horton tells employees that American is negotiating to cut i
134 PlaneAdmirer : From the link: The airplanes were financed or leased through the "American Airlines 13.0% 2009-2 Senior Secured Notes Due 2016 Aircraft Equipment Wow
135 LAXintl : Yes they did. Matter of fact to such end, AMR will be presenting the court on the 27th with request to retain SkyWorks Capital to aid with fleet asse
136 flyinryan99 : American hasn't put out their spring/summer schedules (for the most part). Does anyone know when they plan on publishing it yet? I would think the Apr
137 LAXintl : This coming week AMR heads back to court. Quite a large docket of items if scheduled to be heard: o Authorize the establishment for procedure to prote
138 par13del : Well at least we can clearly see who some of the prime beneficiaries of Chpt.11 filings are, lawyers and more lawyers. I know that there are numerous
139 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's always the running joke with the BK process. At the end of the day,, the true winners are the lawyers..
140 FlyASAGuy2005 : Read today that AMR will be taking a $713M charge on their 2011 earnings to write down and properly reflect the true value of assests, mostly aircraft
141 ADent : Thanx for posting these updates.
142 AADC10 : It depends on how or where the debt is collateralized. Some countries have different rules and make it easier to seize assets, particularly when the
143 Post contains links LAXintl : A few various bits of news related to the BK process. Surprisingly to many AMR management on Monday came out with a letter to employees basically stat
144 dirtyfrankd : I know it's a little early in the day but have there been any updates from today's bankruptcy hearing?
145 FlyASAGuy2005 : And what about the a/c write down. I was hoping someone could put that one in simple terms for me.
146 LAXintl : Beyond today's hearing, AMR has scheduled 3 hearings next week to attend exclusively with aircraft matters. Essentially the hearings are to inform the
147 dirtyfrankd : Alright so anyone know what happened today?
148 FlyASAGuy2005 : Would also like to know when Q4 and full 2011 results will be posted..if anyone has the date. I'm guessing it will be some time next week. Maybe Thurs
149 LAXintl : Some news out of court on Friday. AA was granted further 30-day extension delay in filing its required schedule of assets, contracts and statement of
150 Pellegrine : Flew AA last year to Montego Bay, Jamaica from DCA via MIA. They were ok, but very professional. My question is... Are they liquidating yet???
151 Post contains links commavia : Some interesting predictions from the Dallas Morning News airline blog today about the "wish list" they expect AMR to propose to the unions when they
152 jfk777 : do you have a count by type ? would like to know 777, 767 and 738 ?
153 LAXintl : All the guesses seems quite plausible. One way or the other AA will certainly seek to gain productivity from its employees. This one if it happens is
154 Post contains links LAXintl : Does not match my numbers exactly, however here is a breakdown of mainline aircraft per the Dallas Morning News.... Agreed to keep 737-800 - 159 757-
155 realsim : If we do some maths, we can know how many aircraft do not need any further payment, and should also remain on the fleet: - 757-200: 44 - 767-300: 25
156 ckfred : Pensions are going to be negotiated and/or argued in court for quite some time. The pension board seems adament against AA terminating its pensions.
157 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: CNN American Airlines To Lay Out Cuts Affecting 81,000 Workers http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/31/news..._jobs/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote
158 rj777 : Am I sensing a modern-day Eastern here?
159 ckfred : I know some AA pilots who, while often irritated to no end with management (going back to Bob Crandall), understand that it costs more to run AA than
160 Post contains links LAXintl : Well the PBGC has decided to get liens against AA assets for failure to fully make a scheduled quarterly $100mil payment due on January 15th. AA appar
161 DeltaMD90 : Not a legal guru, does PBGC have a good case? Is it winnable?
162 ripcordd : Really if AA were to dump the penison plans they would be profitiable, throw in some outsourcing/more hours per month they will make money...While I o
163 Post contains links LAXintl : AA reported its first financials today - For the month of December it saw a $904mil loss ($728mil loss excluding reorganization costs and special item
164 EricR : What are you sensing here that is different from what UA, DL, NW, US went through during their BK process?
165 point2point : Oy vey..... Only about a billion dollars here? And just for the month....? Lots of work has to be done ahead, or all these rumors of AA having to shu
166 micstatic : Holy crap. Almost a billion in one month! I find it odd that they could classify "interest expense" as a special item. (Per the article).
167 AAExecplat : I must admit that it is hard to understand how an airline can lose this much money in just one month. One has to wonder if the customers ran away fro
168 AAExecplat : What are the $725 million in special charges for Dec according to the 8-k?
169 point2point : Yes indeed........ I can't stop shaking my head here. However, the article also states $4.9B more debt than assets. And now losing about a billion a
170 commavia : Yeah - that $728M operating loss was driven almost entirely by a $725M impairment charge on the 757s, 767s and MD80s. In essence, AMR was break-even i
171 LDVAviation : Did you have to go and explain away the loss? I was having so much fun reading some of the posts before yours. LOL.
172 AAExecplat : Thanks...I figured that $725m had something to do with the unusually large net loss. Would you mind explaining what an impairment charge is and how t
173 commavia : Every asset has a net book value, or "carrying value," that represents its purchase price less accumulated deprecation, where accumulated depreciatio
174 AAExecplat : Commavia. Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense now.
175 Post contains images point2point : Okay,.... as AA "listed $24.7 billion in assets and $29.6 billion in debt in Chapter 11 papers filed Nov. 29" and these planes are now written down a
176 commavia : I don't know, but not necessarily. Yes, if AMR has written down the value of the aircraft by $725M, that would lead to a net decrease in book asset v
177 ripcordd : If I remember correctly NW/DL wrote off the value of bunch of aircraft in bk as well...Just a numbers game
178 moman : Any chance AA will get rid of any of the 1999 build 738s? IIRC, part of the end of the recent order was to retire these planes in 2019-2020. Would it
179 aacun : Totally off the subject, but I went to look at Airbus' web site and found that American Airlines is no longer listed on the 2011 order list. Any idea
180 AAIL86 : Things will have to fallen pretty far for this to happen. Don't forget that there are still 200 MD80s flying out there.
181 AeroWesty : Not necessarily. One example could be that if any of the planes in question are leased at rates unattractive in comparison to all of the new birds co
182 HPRamper : AA announced today it will lay off 13,000 employees. Haven't seen this mentioned yet. Hit hardest will be AC maintenance, then ramp and FA groups. Man
183 sunking737 : i have a friend at AA TUL MX, have not talked to him yet. I hope he is safe. 20 yrs in, but TUL I think is high seniority. ??
184 Post contains links realsim : AMR has released a lot of information regarding their restructuring plan. In the following website you can find management proposals to their differen
185 AAIL86 : Well you make a valid point, but still- I would venture to guess that they would have to be to be astronomical lease rates for this to happen. Rememb
186 AAR90 : No and no. The reconfigurations are STILL not complete and the reason is the (now former) EVP-Ops refused to spend the money to get it done any quick
187 LMP737 : Met him once, was not impressed.
188 Post contains images AAIL86 : LOL. Really? I left in May. I would have thought they would have been done by now. That cracks me up. Good luck getting the 763s redone....
189 LAXintl : A bit of a court update - its actually rather quiet at the moment on the court front. Besides the individual hearings for 60-day extension on the 1110
190 Post contains links mercure1 : Any update if talks have commence with unions, and is there a planned timeline to reach agreement ? I see in news article, AA have announced break dow
191 dirtyfrankd : I believe there should have been some court hearings by now...who is familiar with what happened? By the way, where can one go to find out the outcome
192 ckfred : There is an old saying that you sometimes have to spend money to make money, and the most opportune time is when you don't have 2 nickels to your nam
193 LAXintl : After a bit of an absence let me try to bread some life back into this thread. For starters in fleet news, AMR requested and was granted a further ext
194 ckfred : LAXintl: That sounds like a very long hearing for the 22nd. I assume that the judge will hurry through the rest of his court call, then spend the rest
195 LAXintl : Both AMR and unions have agreed with the court regarding the timing of what surely is squaring up to be a tumultous hearing over rejection the union C
196 Post contains links bennett123 : Flight International are carrying a legal notice placed by the US Bank National Association on behalf of Conneticut National Bank offering B757-223 N6
197 LAXintl : Summary of items to be during upcoming April 10th hearing. o Application to retain Deloitte Financial Advisory Services as consultants o Acceptance of
198 ckfred : This gives AMR and the unions time to continue negotiating agreements. IIRC, UA wanted to terminate all of its collective bargaining agreements. Whil
199 crAAzy : Quick question. Do the pensions fall under the CBAs that AA is trying to reject or do the still plan on freezing but keeping most of them intact for n
200 AAR90 : Yes, the retirement plans for unionized employees are within the CBA's; however, management's position with the court will be its Term Sheet with lat
201 Post contains links KarlB737 : Just saw a report showing a picket line of American Eagle Flight Attendants. The Union President of American Eagle was interviewed on WFAA-TV. Some of
202 ckfred : Some at mainline claim that it wasn't fair and equitable that mainline had to agree to wage cuts in 2003, but there weren't any cuts at Eagle.
203 Post contains images lightsaber : wow...How much of that overvalue was collateral for loans? Hey, loan me a billion, this is worth 2.5 billion... errr... 500 million post default. It
204 LAXintl : An update on next week’s hearings. It seems a few of the items from April 10th, are back on the 23rd and 25th. April 23 o Extension to negotiate reg
205 flyfree727 : Ended 1Q with 5.6 billion. AA ORD
206 SonomaFlyer : I thought they entered this process with 4 billion in cash. Is this 5.6 billion figure just cash or cash and equivalents? I'm surprised at this big a
207 strfyr51 : I think that's an outcome of the UAL Bankruptcy where throwing the Pensions on the PBGC is no longer tolerated. Were AMR to face Liquidation? Then th
208 strfyr51 : Pay, Pensions ok But flight benefits?? Obviously He DOESN'T know that flight benefits are Free Gratis to the bottom line and United has reaped $10-30
209 LAXintl : Well the first 2 days of hearings on the 1113 motion to dump the contracts has passed. No surprise AMR has brought out witness after witness with the
210 Revelation : Flight benefits are not "Free Gratis to the bottom line". Every step of the way there are costs. The buddy pass software didn't write itself. The ser
211 PlaneAdmirer : Do you know if the judge gave a time for ruling on the motions? The sooner the better regardless of the outcome. US really did stink up the process w
212 LAXintl : Day three of AMR presenting its case was primarily filled with insightful testimony from the financial advisory group Rothschild which was retained pr
213 PlaneAdmirer : Thank you. Sorry for being lazy.
214 AAIL86 : You have a point. But you'd also have to consider the fact that the flight benefits are an attractive selling point that allow airlines to significan
215 Revelation : I agree, but that's quite a different thing than saying employee flights are free.
216 ckfred : What's this about? If I remember correctly, Brinks, Hoffer is an intellectual property (i.e., patents and trademarks) law firm headquartered in Chica
217 LAXintl : In testimony on Thursday, consultants McKinsey & Co. shared their findings on work they had done for AMR particularly network analysis. As we know
218 delta2ual : So, basically a consultant hired by AA came up with the same strategy AA wants to pursue: more large regional jets and domestic codesharing. That's a
219 commavia : Well, yes. While obviously a classic example of group-think and pay-for-the-answer-you-want, on the flip side, it should also be noted that the strat
220 miaami : AA has a history of not being able to do things themselves, they had to hire outside consultants to interpret the FAA regulations on wiring the Super
221 PlaneAdmirer : In bankrtupcy court and considering that the motions are opposed, there are strong reasons besides lazyness or being inept for AA to have hired consu
222 crAAzy : To the degree that they can't get the labor agreements necessary to run their own operations profitably, yes - but anyone in the industry could have
223 Post contains links miaami : Looks like 18 Eagle planes are going back to lenders. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...idUSL1E8G41KV20120504?feedType=RSS I wonder if these are
224 SonomaFlyer : They filed to reject leases on many MD-80 series and a few 757's. The are renegotiating on others.
225 stillageek : Those 18 planes haven't been in revenue service in years. They are currently parked out in the desert at KIGM.
226 LAXintl : Hello all. Now that the court has recovered from part one of the 1113 hearings, its getting back to normal business. There is an upcoming hearing on M
227 ckfred : Didn't Delta also have problems with the FAA over rewiring on the MD-88 fleet? Remember that AA got the rewiring done well ahead of the deadline. The
228 LAXintl : This week kicked off Round II of the 1113 hearings in AMRs attempt dump the CBAs. In this round, the unions have one-week to present their arguments a
229 dirtyfrankd : What were the outcomes from the 5/10 hearing specific to these agenda items?
230 LAXintl : Which specific docket item outcome are you interested in ?
231 dirtyfrankd : I'm interested in all...but I'm guessing that would probably take too long to type out. Where do you get all your updates, on the bankruptcy site mai
232 LAXintl : Day two and three of the union presenting their counter arguments against the 1113 motion In New York have passed. APA continued on the stand on Tuesd
233 qqflyboy : Judge Lane Friday (18May) said he was delaying his decision on the 1113 process from June 6 to June 22 in order to have time to go over the particular
234 Post contains links commavia : http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/05/ruling-on-american-airlines-co.html "American counsel Jack Gallagher said American was "eager to a
235 qqflyboy : Ah yes I just read an article in Star Telegram saying much of the same. Thanks Commavia. Another interesting point in the Star Telegram article was th
236 Revelation : In the posts about the union testimony, I'm reading lots about how the unions say they the company demands were unacceptable, but not much about why.
237 LAXintl : For the remainder of the week APFA presented their case. Most interesting in my view was well know industry economist Dan Akins who testified on behal
238 qqflyboy : While partially true, testimony is only taking two days longer than planned, but the court's judgment has been delayed two weeks. It's a good sign th
239 commavia : Yeah, Mr. Atkins' theories are always interesting to hear. The thing I find fascinating about the views some so-called industry "experts" and "analys
240 Revelation : I know the unions want the US merger, but I'm not experienced enough with these matters to see how his testimony about AA having a weak strategy goin
241 Post contains images commavia : So ... sort of like what the USAirways employees experienced ... two bankruptcies within as many years. Who do the unions want to merge with again?
242 LAXintl : Beyond the ongoing 1113 hearings this week, the court also has an agenda of regular business its schedule to get to. Depending on how late the hearing
243 qqflyboy : This is partially where the US deal comes into play in the testimony, which there was plenty of. It showed the unions were willing to negotiate, it's
244 Post contains links commavia : Domestically? Really? I don't think so - not much. Maybe a few limited, isolated places here and there, but very little. Right - and what is the comp
245 LAXintl : According to their presented plans, they could raise large express capacity by up to 400%. They also said network departures would rise 30%+ over 5-y
246 commavia : It's 20%, not 30%. So what? It's lots of added departures, but not necessarily lots of added seats. AA is highly unlikely to be dumping much if any n
247 Revelation : Isn't that to be expected? I thought court protection is allowing them to not pay a lot of bills they used to have to pay. I thought that was one rea
248 HPRamper : I'd like to see a list of synergies made up by US management to get some sort of idea how they propose to keep costs low while practically tripling t
249 LAXintl : Well the testimony wrapped up today on AMRs 1113 motion to reject its CBAs. No surprise AA disputed everything the unions presented with its rebuttal
250 Post contains links LAXintl : AMR and 3 unions have agreed to begin court-supervised meditation, with hopes of reaching some agreement prior to June 22nd ruling date. story: http:/
251 PIEAvantiP180 : By any chance are you guys keeping a track of the total number of planes by model type so far rejected in the bankruptcy process? And how many of tho
252 dirtyfrankd : Interesting, I wonder if management is more keen on doing this now in order to slow down/avoid a merger with US...
253 TWA85 : With all do respect to all parties involved with the AA Bankruptcy process and negotiations. What is the likelyhood that AA and the Unions will come
254 ckfred : It's the same logic that causes parties to settle a case before or during a trial or even after the case has gone to the jury, but it's still deliber
255 Post contains links LipeGIG : As it becomes too long (and not good for our members using dial-up / low speed internet connections) we are closing this thread for further discussion
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