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SQ Forced To Reduce IAH Frequencies? Rumor  
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6119 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 14852 times:

I heard a rumor this week from a very reputable source inside the HAS system that SQ will be forced to reduce the now very popular SIN-DME-IAH to 5Xweekly from daily due to a spat with the Russian Government and DME.

Anyone have more info on this?

I must say, I have been in the FIS cue behind the SQ arrivals twice in the past two weeks at IAH....and those planes were full.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14434 times:

Funnel more through FRA with the SQ A380 going SIN-FRA-JFK in January and LH A380 starting FRA-IAH in autumn - Problem solved.

The Russians really need to understand that this ongoing kind of blackmailing isn't going to work forever. Airlines will keep their options open and might need to start thinking of plan B's sooner whenever they are close to Russian airspace.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6119 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14350 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 1):
The Russians really need to understand that this ongoing kind of blackmailing isn't going to work forever. Airlines will keep their options open and might need to start thinking of plan B's sooner whenever they are close to Russian airspace.

But what would SQ's plan B be? DME is unique in that it provided excellent F loads to IAH. SQ have worked so hard in this market that the deserve to keep it, perhaps with an eventual supplemental SIN-IAH n/s if the 789 can make it. Perhaps too Aeroflot is seeing SQ's success and in leaning on the Govt to give them an excuse to start it.

Perhaps SQ should ask the loyal oil folks to put pressure on the Russian Gov't to give them back their frequencies.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7569 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14280 times:

It's probably less dramatic than that.

If they reduce it, it probably means it's not doing as well as it was.

Russians don't half ass blackmail like that. If this was true blackmail, Russia would make SQ cancel the service all together. That's one reason AA backed out of the market. I'm sure AA would have paid them off if the service was doing well, but it wasn't.

[Edited 2011-12-10 07:00:46]


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14202 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 2):
SQ have worked so hard in this market that the deserve to keep it, perhaps with an eventual supplemental SIN-IAH n/s if the 789 can make it.

Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 1):

The Russians really need to understand that this ongoing kind of blackmailing isn't going to work forever. Airlines will keep their options open and might need to start thinking of plan B's sooner whenever they are close to Russian airspace.

However they also know how badly airlines need them. Flying from Europe to China, Japan or South Korea, there aren't many viable options.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6119 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14155 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):

It's probably less dramatic than that.

If they reduce it, it probably means it's not doing as well as it was.

It is doing just fine. I was specifically told that SQ was "extremely upset" that they are having to reduce it and that the problem was with "DME authorities"

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

Yes, but then the aircraft fills up again on DME-IAH. Up front and down below do really really well.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7569 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14020 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
It is doing just fine. I was specifically told that SQ was "extremely upset" that they are having to reduce it and that the problem was with "DME authorities"

Well, I would have an easy time believing that it isnt what it once was.

I monitor corporate travel for a living and many of my clients are large oil and oil related companies in Houston. Last year they were traveling to Russia 5-15 a week in F, J, and Y. However, in the last 9 months I can count the number of travelers Ive seen terminate in Russia on two hands. Ive had a lot people on the flight (traveling all the way to SIN) come off the plane and say it was half empty in all classes. One guy who traveled in November said he downgraded from business to economy at the check in counter because he could tell he could get a whole row of seats on his flight.

I would personally like to see them reroute through PVG. Thats a place Im seeing a lot of Houston Oil traffic headed right now.

[Edited 2011-12-10 07:39:36]


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13489 times:

What direct services to Asia are there ex IAH? IAH-SIN would be significantly shorter routing through ICN, NRT, PVG, HKG etc. IAH-LAX-SIN or even IAH-EWR-SIN would too all be shorter than going IAH-DME-SIN.

It is fair to assume that this plane is in the market for the IAH-DME traffic as there appear to be ample alternatives to travel between IAH and SIN.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13181 times:

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the spat between the Russian Government and IAH, and does SQ have anything to do with this or is SQ the Russians sacrficial lamb to keep this spat going.

User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12714 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):

Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

In conflict with:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 2):

But what would SQ's plan B be? DME is unique in that it provided excellent F loads to IAH.

So who's right?

Does SU have decent connection to IAH? If so, the move is more-or-less plausible, if not then it may be a stunt on SQ's behalf, as in "It's unfortunate we have to step down in our movement (but the route wasn't as viable anyways)".



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1899 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12671 times:

Since the service has really good loads and SQ is being forced to less than daily service, does this mean that IAH could see a SQ A380 in the future?

Quoting something (Reply 7):

What direct services to Asia are there ex IAH?

There is IAH-NRT direct.



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

Yes, but then the aircraft fills up again on DME-IAH. Up front and down below do really really well.

How would a supplement nonstop SIN-IAH do well if the majority of the pax leave the aircraft at DME? I was referring to the idea of a nonstop SIN-IAH flight. Flying via DME is a smart idea.


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11190 times:

It's a long shot, but maybe SQ is downgrading the route in favor of LH putting a SQ codeshare on their MOW-FRA and FRA-IAH flights. LF besides, the flight may be too costly to run for SQ as a tag-on, requiring two sets of crews etc.
Remember that LH is upgrading IAH from 744 to A380 (not 748).

This topic needs a source from either DME or SQ to confirm such rumours.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8310 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
Russians don't half ass blackmail like that.

Yeah right. They didn't pull the same crap with LH and TP. This must be just everyone's imagination.
The Russian government doesn't like foreign companies making money in Russia the honest way. It's as simple as that.


User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10835 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
One guy who traveled in November said he downgraded from business to economy at the check in counter because he could tell he could get a whole row of seats on his flight.

Nonsense: Nobody downgrades from Business to Economy on that flight unless they are completely mad! Business is fully flat bed and much much more comfortable than a row of 3 seats where you can't even extend your legs when accross.

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

When I flew it it was packed for both legs, but I estimate only about 20% of the passengers flying SIN-IAH. SIN-DME is all Russians coming back from their south-east asian holidays. DME-IAH was a different load of russians. Don't forget this flight is Transaero codeshare.


User currently offlinesofianec From Germany, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 239 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10747 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
Yeah right. They didn't pull the same crap with LH and TP. This must be just everyone's imagination.

Just because Russian government is constantly demonized by western media has nothing to do with reality. There are certainly numerous occasions where Russian government did indeed pressure (LH Cargo) but let's not forget that US and namely Canada (EK spat) also use their vast territories as a pretext to limit Fifth Freedom rights with city states (SIN, DXB ...) protecting their interests.

Why is Russia always harshly criticized for protecting its interests is beyond me. Obviously SU or even UN would/should try IAH as I am sure they will be successful even without F but in this particular case the whole issue has NOTHING to do with neither SU/UN nor Russian government. The spat is between SQ and DME airport (which is a PRIVATE!!! company - East Line Group).

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
The Russian government doesn't like foreign companies making money in Russia the honest way. It's as simple as that.

Oh come on. That statement is utter crap. I work for a swiss company and not only are we more than welcomed in Russia but Russian market has grown to contribute more than 70% of our PROFITS!!! while being only 17.5% of our group turnover.

Trust me western companies love working in Russia.

---



A350WARP
User currently offlinebill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8445 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10677 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):

Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

Probably because anyone going to IAH from SIN is goibg via one of the West Coast ports such as LAX or SFO. SIN-LAX-IAH is shorter than SIN-DME-IAH and wouldn't require a Russian transit visa.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7569 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10596 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 14):
Nonsense: Nobody downgrades from Business to Economy on that flight unless they are completely mad! Business is fully flat bed and much much more comfortable than a row of 3 seats where you can't even extend your legs when accross.

You do if your company bought the ticket and you can pocket they let you pocket the difference as was the case with this guy.

Does anyone have any factual data on this route broken down by leg? It might end the speculation. If it proves me wrong, Ill shut up about it.

[Edited 2011-12-10 16:11:14]


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10492 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):
You do if your company bought the ticket and you can pocket they let you pocket the difference as was the case with this guy.

Isn't that illegal? BTW, I will spin any story to justify myself pocketing $2000-$3000 for enduring 20 hours in Y. For that amount of money, I will sit in Y even if it is packed.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7569 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10458 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 18):
Isn't that illegal? BTW, I will spin any story to justify myself pocketing $2000-$3000 for enduring 20 hours in Y. For that amount of money, I will sit in Y even if it is packed.

In his case, he doesnt need to. His company is well aware of business class prices. If he flies Y instead of J, they will pay him to do it. In his case the difference in fare was $7000 and his company let him keep $2000. Since it their travel policy that he can fly business on all over the water flights, they have to let him do it if he chooses.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10327 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
like to see them reroute through PVG

No fifth freedom flight rights in china right now.

Quoting sofianec (Reply 15):
Russian market has grown to contribute more than 70% of our PROFITS!!! while being only 17.5% of our group turnover.

Fingers crossed this continues, as so many companies have found out that the lifespan of superprofits like this in Russia is about 18 months.

Russia is one tough country to work in. Russia is on the 154th place out of 178 in the Corruption Perceptions Index published by Transparency International. More corrupt that Nigeria and Pakistan.

World bank has it as the 123rd most difficult country in which to do business in 2010. For comparison - Bangladesh was 107th and China 79th.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/...lue+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc


Corruption in the country exceeded US$240 billion in 2006. The Russian think tank Indem estimates that bribes accounted for 20% of Russia's GDP as of 2005.

Ask Ikea
http://www.theage.com.au/world/corru...ikea-in-russia-20110306-1bji5.html

Quoting sofianec (Reply 15):
The spat is between SQ and DME airport

What spat is this?

Quoting Semaex (Reply 1):
Funnel more through FRA
Quoting Semaex (Reply 12):
maybe SQ is downgrading the route in favor of LH putting a SQ codeshare on their MOW-FRA and FRA-IAH

SQ working as a true alliance carrier?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinePbb152 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 614 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10194 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
Problem appears to be that not many people fly SIN-IAH. According to some reports here on Anet almost the entire aircraft terminates at DME coming from SIN.

Not correct. See below.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):
Does anyone have any factual data on this route broken down by leg? It might end the speculation. If it proves me wrong, Ill shut up about it.

The data is readily available on the Houston Airport System website. Here is just a sample from
July-Oct of this year:

July: 69.8% of the passengers who deplaned in Houston originated with the flight in SIN.
67.6% of the passengers who enplaned in Houston terminated with the flight in SIN.

Aug: 68.5% of the passengers who deplaned in Houston originated with the flight in SIN.
63.0% of the passengers who enplaned in Houston terminated with the flight in SIN.

Sep: 64.3% of the passengers who deplaned in Houston originated with the flight in SIN.
67.9% of the passengers who enplaned in Houston terminated with the flight in SIN.

Oct: 63.8% of the passengers who deplaned in Houston originated with the flight in SIN.
68.4% of the passengers who enplaned in Houston terminated with the flight in SIN.

http://www.fly2houston.com/TrafficStats

You will have to do the math for other months on your own but the breakdown has always been around 67% SIN traffic and 33% DME traffic give or take a few percentage points.


User currently offlinearn777 From Sweden, joined Jul 2010, 199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10195 times:

SQ should rather start SIN-OSL-IAH 3-4w. The market is for sure there based on Norwegian shipping, oil and energy business between the cities.

User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10195 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
The Russian government doesn't like foreign companies making money in Russia the honest way. It's as simple as that.

They like it.. as long as they get their slice of the pie (LH was denied overflight rights after moving their cargo stop from Moscow to Almaty. They now stop-over in the radiantly beautiful Krasnoyarsk.) There is probably a lot more to the story, but either way, Russian skies unlock in exchange for $ only.

I assume SQ was given the same kind of shakedown.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinesofianec From Germany, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 239 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9947 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
Russia is one tough country to work in. Russia is on the 154th place out of 178 in the Corruption Perceptions Index published by Transparency International. More corrupt that Nigeria and Pakistan.

All of these ratings and organizations are USA-financed therefore objectivity should be taken with lots of spoons of salt. I am sure that Russian based "humanitarian" agencies would rate USA in the bottom.

Just so you know I've worked with both American and Russian customers since 1995 (Private Aviation) - that is way longer than 18 months. While it is true there are many challenges in Russia for foreign companies, it's well worth it in the end. Just a different system, needs customized approach. That's all. Cold war agenda based statistics are meaningless here, not to mention completely out of context.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
What spat is this?

The same spat this thread is about. It is unrelated to government issues therefore I don't understand all the Putin-bashing here.

---



A350WARP
25 cysafan : Well. I am not surprised! The Russians have been infamous for doing business with. They will either make last minute changes that you are not aware of
26 LAXdude1023 : Thanks for that, but I wonder what the actual loads on the plane are. And if most of the traffic is SIN bound, would another city make sense? Since P
27 gigneil : Not even close, I fear. You'd need a 777-200LR to fly that route. I'm not sure an A340-500 could do it. NS
28 Post contains links AngMoh : It is 500 nm more than SIN-JFK: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sin-jfk%0D%0Asin-iah&MS=wls&DU=mi But more importantly, it is further away from
29 huaiwei : When SQ decided to leave Canada, you don't see them playing such a stunt. Fact is, SQ is not some LCC who needs to turn every frequency reduction int
30 sofianec : First of all LH were not "denied" overflight rights. LH Cargo (not LH) overflight permit had expired. It was not terminated it had expired. You're ri
31 sofianec : Well ... naturally but most people do consider DXB as a city-state/emirate/. The fact is however that SIN-IAH in itself is not sustainable. SIN-DME i
32 Mortyman : SAS has had the same problem with the Russians. Aeroflot wanted more frequensies to OSL and when they did'nt get them, the Russians treatend to kick S
33 Post contains links bestwestern : Talk of a spat between DME and SQ is just idle gossip. No links, no quotes, nothing Amazing how you are so sure about this, but when quotes and links
34 UALWN : I'm afraid this sentence discredits your whole post.
35 Post contains links something : I can assure you that this is not what happened. I shall elucidate the matter later. Just so much, resident a.net and then MD11F LH Cargo pilot wilco
36 huaiwei : A city-state by accurate definition is an independent sovereign state which is also a single city in its own right. Calling Dubai as such suggests yo
37 yellowtail : The SIN traffic is more low yield SE Asian..like to Vietnam....whiel the IAH -DME traffic is mostly F & J....it is a nice balance. What we all fo
38 2travel2know2 : Good idea if SQ has to reduce frequencies via DME. Not sure if SIN-OSL-IAH would still be attractive if flown the 2 days SQ "can't fly" via DME. Woul
39 ordjoe : I thought transparency international is based out of Berlin with about 100 chapters all over the world. If there is actually shady doings by the gove
40 ycp81 : Confirmed that SQ would reduce DME/IAH frequency to 5x a week effective 06 Feb 2012.
41 yellowtail : So my source was correct. I assume he was also correct about the reason is not LF.
42 LAXdude1023 : It depends. Is SQ reducing SIN-DME to 5x a week as well? If so, than that might be right. If SIN-DME is operating daily, I would say that it is prefo
43 hohd : If 4 seats in the middle row of Y is empty, this is better than business class. I can attest to it. I flew both business class and Y in EK and on the
44 IrishAyes : There's obviously more to the story than most of us know on here but I agree with LAXdude1023 in that if the DME-SIN segment is being downgraded to 5X
45 SATexan : Here are the traffic stats for October 2011 IAH-SIN enplane (boarded) : 3148 deplane (alighted) : 2905 I am assuming that this flight operated daily
46 LAXdude1023 : Even then, I think its preformance driven. As I mentioned earlier some of my biggest clients are Houston oil/oil related companies. There was a time
47 brons2 : PVG is directly on the Great Circle Route according to gcmap.com, it's no extra distance to fly SIN-PVG-IAH vs SIN-IAH. 0nm difference than the direc
48 NUAir : This is nonsense. I'm pretty sure anyone who has ever been involved with an oil rig in Asia has at one time travelled from IAH to SIN. I have done th
49 LAXdude1023 : Its a 45 passenger a day market. Other than SQ, I think CO carries the most through NRT.
50 NUAir : How can it be 45 pax/day if the data for just SQ is showing 101... ...or does that include all the pax connecting in IAD and all airlines? Are just 4
51 LAXdude1023 : Thats not O&D, those are include connections onward.
52 IrishAyes : Putting these two snippest together I'm inclined to guess that maybe the 2nd EK flight IAHDXB may have also caused some damage? Additional competitor
53 yellowtail : They are mutually exclusive. My source in HAS (who was right on this thing from the beginning) indicates the spat is about the traffic rights from DM
54 LAXdude1023 : There is no way to verify if he is right or not unless there is a press release. Given the IAH-DME-IAH bound traffic in recent months, I have my mone
55 yellowtail : He was right when he told me about the reduction 4 weeks ago.....unless proved otherwise I will go with the HAS source over a.net LF conjecture. Sorr
56 LAXdude1023 : Whatever makes you sleep at night bro.
57 AngMoh : For SQ, there are only 3 seats in the middle of Y, and even if all of Y is empty, 1 seat in J is still miles better than 100 seats in Y.
58 Post contains links BP1 : Looks like it is already loaded, see the release: http://airlineroute.net/2011/12/15/sq-feb12/
59 airbazar : Or we wait and see what SQ's next move will be. If the yields are that good and the market is as strong and we think it is, do they have an A380 to p
60 Asiaflyer : As BP1 says in reply 58, it is already loaded as 5 weekly. FWIW, thew reduction will continue in the summer schedule, so looks permanent. For the S12
61 huaiwei : Spoke to a friend from SQ recently, and a summary of points are as follows (some of which confirms what we already know): - The primary reason for the
62 yellowtail : I don't doubt you but I find it hard to believe "lower forward bookings" when F and J is usually booked closer in. Perhaps it is lower cargo bookings
63 IrishAyes : Yeah.....this leaves me scratching my head......
64 Post contains images huaiwei : Well you can't doubt me cause I am not the source of info. Just helping to relay the info from an insider, or perhaps he is not "inside" enough?
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