Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
UA: "we Are Committed To Being A 3 Class Airline"  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2941 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12377 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I know I wasn't smoking something when the media covered this story a while back, in fact I vividly recall reading "United bucks trend and is committed to be a 3 class airline" in USA TODAY. I am sure I read threads here about this here about a year ago too. It came out of the early merger announcements that CO's 2 class configuration would be used on some flights but that UNITED would still maintain its 3 class heritage and across much of its widebody fleet.

But it "seems" as I read many posts (including 'UA/CO Existing Fleet Upgrade Status) thread that A: the UA777's still in old UA configuration has not moved from 22 777's reconfigured into UA 3 class hard product in a long time. It has been said the balance would be 3 class (20+ frames) so did they slow it down? Are they still committed to making them all 3 class? The 787's will be 2 class, the remaining 767's will go 2 class. All CO 777's will be 2 class, the 757's obviously 2 class. And the famous P.S. is going 2 class. Things "feel" very 2 class oriented except for most Pre merger United 767's, 747's and half of UA 777's.

To me IMHO as the worlds largest airline with the most comprehensive global net work, and so many of their competitors and Star partners who have great Business AND First class cabins - they need to have F in and out of so many countries and cities. Will United actually have enough 3 class widebody's into all their major US hubs to cities where 3 class still rule AND is United committed to bucking the 2 class trend?

What is the new United's POV on this?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12342 times:

They slowed conversions significantly during the summer. All the UA 777s will be 3 class.

Not all 787s will be 3 class. They will have a combination of the two.

They will have a very large 3 class fleet. They will have plenty of planes available.

I hope United is committed to the right number of cabins on the right route, and not randomly committing to something that does not make business sense.

NS


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11852 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
All the UA 777s will be 3 class.

Does that include the 777s currently configured for domestic and the former CO fleet, or are you just saying that the former UA fleet of 777s will still get IPTE as originally intended? I thought there was some sort of communication that some 777s would remain 2-class.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11786 times:

Sorry, more specific:

The sUA 777s that are 3 class will remain 3 class. The sUA 777s that are 2 class will remain 2 class for now. The sCO 777s will remain 2 class.

NS


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11695 times:

I heard the same announcement. But the conversions will take quite a bit of time (look at DL's conversions). I also suspect that a great deal of market research is being put into deciding WHICH routes have (or will continue to have) 3 classes of service, based on the profitability of the routes and contracts available.


Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11465 times:

And here I thought UA was committed to being a 3rd class airline...  Wow!


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2667 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11385 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
All the UA 777s will be 3 class.

Does that include the 777s currently configured for domestic and the former CO fleet, or are you just saying that the former UA fleet of 777s will still get IPTE as originally intended? I thought there was some sort of communication that some 777s would remain 2-class.

There is a lot on UA's plate with reconfiguration of 764s, 763s, Y+ on PMCO birds - then add to that the repainting of all UA aircraft and at least a touchup on all PMCO aircraft.
I am sure UA's 777s need the upgrade, but
- the current 772 aircraft has PTV throughout and in seat power will not change with IPTE. they also have lie flat beds in F.
- Maybe the 772s can't be pulled into a mod line until the 787s arrive.
- Maybe it's been determined to be more important to get lie flats in the 764
- Maybe it's been determined that reconfiguring the 763s for international service is more important.
- The mod seems more extensive and would not convert as many airplanes as the 767 mods over a period of time
- Could it be availability of F and C seats be an issue?

Could UA also be hedging it's bet on the 772 3 class configuration? Maybe, but it's as likely that UA is still sorting out aircraft requirements of 2 vs. 3 class aircraft. Putting the 772 IPTE at the end of the line may give UA flexibility of determining numbers of 3 class aircraft required.

[Edited 2011-12-10 20:58:43]

User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11365 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
- the current 772 aircraft has PTV throughout and in seat power will not change with IPTE. they also have lie flat beds in F.

The IPTE 777s have all new seats with power, everywhere. That's a big deal.

NS


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11310 times:

Also back to an original point: nobody after the merger, ever, said they were committed to being a 3 class airline. They did say that they would be operating 3 class routes where it made sense,.

NS


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2667 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11099 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 7):
The IPTE 777s have all new seats with power, everywhere. That's a big deal.

Then I guess both Seat Guru and Seat Expert has it wrong when they show no power in Y.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11026 times:

Apparently so. The Weber 5751s installed on the IPTE 777s have in seat power throughout coach.

NS


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9433 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 9):
Then I guess both Seat Guru and Seat Expert has it wrong when they show no power in Y.

AFAIK all IPTE 777s and of course the P.S. 752s have power in coach...



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9047 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
To me IMHO as the worlds largest airline with the most comprehensive global net work, and so many of their competitors and Star partners who have great Business AND First class cabins - they need to have F in and out of so many countries and cities.

United definitely needs plenty of 3-class widebodies, but they definitely need 2-class widebodies as well. A large portion of the United network - including former United longhaul markets and former Continental longhaul markets - would be better served by a 2-class product. United will be smart to keep both and deploy them optimally - same with AA.


User currently offlinecaleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6090 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Maybe 3 class means Business, Economy Plus, and Economy.

User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6071 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

UA slowed down the 777 upgrades during the busy summer season. I expect that will pick up a bit during the winter. They previously stated the process would take until 2013 to complete. Like most, I wish it were done sooner given the old configs are awful.

To address the OP's point, UA never stated they were going all three class. That would make no sense economically. You can bet that some dude/dudette in Chicago or Houston has a file filled with market analysis of every long haul route to help them right size the three class fleet and assign a/c accordingly. Unless the market justifies it, they will run two class birds on long haul routes. Conversely, markets which demonstrate yield/demand for three class service will see it continue.

UA likely put three class birds on former CO routes. I'm pretty sure they already switched to a three class 763 on the EWR to ZRH route for example.


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3318 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6016 times:

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 13):
Maybe 3 class means Business, Economy Plus, and Economy.

Maybe from an outsiders p o v the airline looks very confused right now, what am I going to get for my money.
Business,First or coach.



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

Sounds confusing. I would have thought they pretty much forego all top premium revenue until they have a sizeable fleet providing product certainty. Not just on a route, but on a network of routes. If the product is inconsistent, you can forget that. Sure, a Zurich frequent flier might eventually discover the product by osmosis. But how can you run a national advertising campaign on First, a product whose availability is, basically, random and unknown to the customer..


If they aren't going to outfit entire fleets to a known standard, they better keep the route-by-route product dead consistent for multiple years at a time. Otherwise, there is little sales value to this.


User currently offlinedavidkunzVIE From Austria, joined Mar 2007, 431 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5800 times:

I am sure they meant "3rd class airline".


DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3922 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5496 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
But how can you run a national advertising campaign on First, a product whose availability is, basically, random and unknown to the customer..

Most airlines are very selective about the routes that have an international first class service, airlines like BA, LH, AF, etc all use this policy. Indeed I think LX is the only European airline with F class in the entire long-haul fleet, this makes sense for Swiss given their high yield home base and reputation as a "boutique"/"quality"/"luxury" airline.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 15):
Maybe from an outsiders p o v the airline looks very confused right now, what am I going to get for my money.
Business,First or coach.

Well, if you purchase Business - you get Business. Purchase First, you get First. Purchase Coach, you get coach. Seems very simple to me. If it has the word "business" in it, it is a practically identical product.

And don't give me that crap - airlines around the world, including your illustrious European and Asian carriers, offer a huge range of products on different aircraft. No complaints about that for British Airways? Lufthansa? Air France? Singapore? They ALL have different service levels that vary from route to route with very little publishing of the differences.

Check your anti-United sentiment at the door and work with logic and facts, and you'll go far. It has worked well for the world's airlines, and it will work well for United.

NS


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2941 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4772 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting gigneil (Reply 19):

Thanks for defending UA I love her, she has treated me as a king. But a bit to the point of confusion, it's always good to know ahead of time what you will get. If it's the right trip, my company WILL pay for F, and sometimes after a miserable business trip to London I will use a sw to get into F. But I need to make sure it's a 767 (seat 1k) rocks! Or if a 777 I will double check its configuration.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4519 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 20):
But a bit to the point of confusion, it's always good to know ahead of time what you will get.

The point I'm trying to make is you do know, clearly, what you're getting, every time you book.

You can tell at the time of purchase if its a 2 class or 3 class aircraft. Then you can access the fleet information from there and understand. And I know you believe firmly that the business class product is different, but it is not materially so and I guarantee they will never differentiate them for you.

I keep reiterating - this is no different than any other major world airline, except that United is going to have even less options than most.

There are only 2 products - 2 class international and 3 class international. We could squabble about upgraded vs. not upgraded planes, but there is no airline in the world that goes ouf of their way to explain "sorry we haven't yet upgraded this one airframe"

I understand that you like to fly F, and that you pay for F. It is blatantly clear if F is available on your flight when you book.

NS


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4465 times:

I don't think that ANY US airline will be able to be inherently and continuously profitable until it does three things:

1) Limit itself to Business and Economy class on short sectors.
2) Add a third class - paid Premium Economy - on sectors longer than three hours - with fares halfway between Economy and First - selling Economy seats + 4 inches extra legroom + checked baggage + First Class food + unlimited free drinks.
3) Stop comping upgrades to elites, and instead charge significant numbers of miles for elites to upgrade, and limit upgrade inventory to 2 or so seats per flight.

Until those reforms occur, all US airlines will be inherently unprofitable, as the most profitable seats will continue to be given away as a lemming-like coordinated disincentive for elites to buy premium tickets. And profits will continue only to be concocted by reducing capacity and forcing people to pay ancillary charges.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
It is blatantly clear if F is available on your flight when you book.

Of, course, if you already are in the act of booking, you are made aware of certain things.

Existing J customers will be aware of F upgrade potential on a flight by flight basis. Certainly you will get some customers that way.

If UAL wants to sell F to the netjets customer base, it has to be clearer where F is available. Probably those customers do not have the stamina to check hundreds of flights and build enthusiast type knowledge. Anyway, imo you are as good as your worst aircraft and worst terminal. Customer may ask, what will I get? On SQ at worst, you will get something quite good. UA longhaul, ideally customers would believe the same.

[Edited 2011-12-11 15:45:13]

User currently offlinepolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
1) Limit itself to Business and Economy class on short sectors.

All US airlines (that have more than one class) already do this.

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
2) Add a third class - paid Premium Economy - on sectors longer than three hours - with fares halfway between Economy and First - selling Economy seats + 4 inches extra legroom + checked baggage + First Class food + unlimited free drinks.

Most have or are doing exactly this, minus the first class food and unlimited drinks, in exchange for slightly cheaper Y+ tickets rather than splitting the difference between first class and economy. (Adding first class food to Y+ would probably end up harming the airline more, as it would significantly dilute the value of first class, especially for domestic flights)

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):

Until those reforms occur, all US airlines will be inherently unprofitable, as the most profitable seats will continue to be given away as a lemming-like coordinated disincentive for elites to buy premium tickets. And profits will continue only to be concocted by reducing capacity and forcing people to pay ancillary charges.

The airlines are never going to give up the ancillary charges. The past few years have proven that people are willing to live with them, and the airlines are not going to give up money. Who cares if the ancillary charges are a major component of most US airline's profits the past couple of years. A profit is a profit.


25 Post contains images gigneil : I think we'd be surprised by the sophistication of the Netjets userbase... however, when searching out flights (or having our assistants do it ) then
26 AeroWesty : That's already in the works. Airlines have been getting more and more sophisticated in terms of monetizing domestic First Class in recent years. KUP
27 koruman : This is why shares in US airlines are in the gutter. Aviation is a service industry, and it's one where passengers have a choice. Except in the USA.
28 Post contains images commavia : Well let's not get overly dramatic or anything. Seriously - this sort of continual criticism of U.S. airline service standards never ceases to amaze
29 gigneil : Commavia brings up great points. US Carriers are absolutely on par with Europeans on Short Haul, and they are aggressively bringing their front cabins
30 koruman : No, I've never flown on either - I only fly on full-service carriers. Next question? Really? Fine. Well here is what the majority of worldwide econom
31 gigneil : Name them. NS
32 Post contains images Flighty : The US industry is not the same as the European airlines. The purposes are different. In the US they are long term insecure by virtue of our market st
33 polot : It is already happening. You have a group of intercontinental carriers who intra EU service is just downright embarrassing (IB,SN,SK etc), you can't
34 koruman : Name carriers offering free domestic seat-back video in countries of comparable size to the USA? I've had it for free on my last four Qantas domestic
35 gigneil : Virgin America offers it here, as does Delta, and so does jetBlue. In first, clearly United offers it for free. There is a selection of free IFE on p.
36 commavia : So you only avail yourself of "full-service" carriers, and yet you feel equipped to comment on behalf of the alleged tastes, desires, and values of "
37 gigneil : Yeah I wanted to follow up further, Koruman - your posts are factually inaccurate as well as just being blatant flamebait. My guess is you've never le
38 koruman : How do you work that piece of intellectual gymnastics out? If every full-service provider offers a near-identical product then you can draw precisely
39 infinit : At first I read the title as "UA: We are committed to being a 3rd class airline" lol If they want to be competitive in First internationally they're g
40 commavia : Quite simple, actually. The trend of the last 30 years has been going in the direction of what I'm describing, not what you're describing. Airlines a
41 gigneil : And those airlines have strangleholds on their markets. NS
42 avek00 : Indeed, USA carriers operate in the world's most advanced and most deregulated aviation market, bar none. As carriers elsewhere in the world begin to
43 Tdan : You sure about that? Everything I've heard is that it will be Business, E+ and Economy throughout the 787 fleet
44 polot : Keep in mind that when the term 3 class is used, it means First, Business, and E+/Economy. E+ is not generally considered a separate class on United
45 mogandoCI : They're "willing" because the alternative is much worse : 1. Spirit Air, 2. Greyhound, or 3. Not Traveling Entirely confusing correlation (people for
46 polot : VX is also highly unprofitable, and B6's profits have essentially been flat the past couple of years despite massive growth, so apparently people are
47 commavia : So if so many people so loathe the allegedly horrific service that get on AA, Delta, United, USAirways and Southwest, as an alternative to JetBlue an
48 gigneil : 100% sure. There will be a mix of 787s with and without first. It was reiterated recently is my understanding. NS
49 mogandoCI : Compare SIN-BKK to AA's ORD-LGA and come back. Both CX and SQ have "regional" products that could be fairly compared to US domestic service. Even tak
50 commavia : The market responds to consumer behavior. Airlines have to make money, and since consumers have repeatedly - time and time again - displayed through
51 gigneil : Hardly We see users choosing the new cheapest price. Which has now been driven down further, making it harder to succeed at offering network carrier
52 mogandoCI : 16 gates can do a lot of damage if they're all used to fly to key destinations. Just do DAL-LAX, DAL-MDW, DAL-LGA alone would make AA fret. And becau
53 commavia : ... which of course they won't be. First, I doubt Southwest will get 224 departures out of 16 gates. Second, it's not as if Southwest is going to eli
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
UA Rehires Charlie Trotter To Redo C/F Class Meals posted Fri Jan 12 2007 04:06:00 by 777fan
At UA - A Circle Is Closer To Being Round posted Fri Oct 17 2003 18:46:35 by Andersjt
We Are About To Crash - Only Joking! posted Sat Aug 25 2001 21:53:24 by Airliners
UA Intl 777s To Get 3-3-3 Y Class, On Demand Video posted Thu Apr 1 2010 16:28:48 by 777fan
Why Are We All Told To Close The Blinds? posted Tue Aug 11 2009 16:48:38 by Boeingluvr
Goldman Sachs To Invest In Business Class Airline posted Mon Jun 25 2007 16:21:07 by Helvknight
FlyBe To Tell Us How Much Damage We Are Doing! posted Mon Jun 4 2007 00:18:51 by OA260
MAS Plans To Set Up A Premium-class Airline posted Tue Feb 27 2007 00:34:14 by MaverickM11
We Are Told Not To Book With Delta posted Wed Dec 7 2005 01:05:59 by Flybynight
Are Bookings To London Being Affected So Far? posted Fri Jul 8 2005 13:31:44 by ARGinLON