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American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF  
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1186 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8489 times:

Here's another new Eagle market out of ORD. Interesting.

American Eagle Airlines Announces New Jet Service From Chicago O'Hare to Kitchener, Ontario

Daily Nonstops Begin June 14

FORT WORTH, Texas, Dec. 13, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- American Eagle, the regional affiliate of American Airlines, today announced daily round-trip flights between Chicago O'Hare International Airport and the Region of Waterloo International Airport in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada. Eagle will operate the new service with 50-seat Embraer jets, beginning June 14, 2012.

"We're pleased to introduce new service to Kitchener from our cornerstone hub in Chicago," said Gary Foss, Managing Director – Network Planning for American Airlines. "This schedule will allow customers from the Waterloo Region to make a day trip to Chicago for business or connect through this key international gateway to destinations throughout the American Airlines and oneworld® global network."

"We are thrilled that American Airlines is coming to the Waterloo Region," said Ken Seiling, Waterloo Regional Chair. "We believe this service will make flying more convenient for everyone and will also have the added benefit of encouraging investment and jobs in our community."

"Daily jet service to Chicago is what our business community asked us for, and we are pleased to be here today announcing just that," said Chris Wood, Airport General Manager at the Region of Waterloo International Airport. "There are almost 800,000 passengers a year traveling between Waterloo Region and the United States who will now be able to fly through Chicago to cities like San Diego, Salt Lake City and San Antonio, while enjoying the convenience of flying from home."

Here is the schedule (all times local):

Chicago O'Hare to Kitchener




Flight
Departs
Arrives
Frequency
4161
1:20 p.m.
3:55 p.m.
Daily
4211
7:50 p.m.
10:15 p.m.
Daily, Except Sat.




Kitchener to Chicago O'Hare




Flight
Departs
Arrives
Frequency
4210*
6:30 a.m.
6:55 a.m.
Daily
4153
4:40 p.m.
5:15 p.m.
Daily, Except Sat.

* Flight begins June 15, 2012

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8458 times:

Surprised in a way that AA picked Kitchener and not Hamilton.

For those not fam with YKF, WS flies a daily 73G to YYC. NWLink operated 3x daily S340 to DTW but pulled the route a couple of years ago.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8131 times:

Interesting.

This was one of the first routes to get slashed by NW before they really even started to pull-down the Saab fleet.

The segment cost of DTW-YKF on a turbopropris much less than RJs on ORD-YKF.
Perhaps is will be more popular though.

The cost of flying trans-border is pretty steep, hence the leakage over to places like BUF or DTW for passengers looking to go to/from the United States.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22926 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8109 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
The segment cost of DTW-YKF on a turbopropris much less than RJs on ORD-YKF.
Perhaps is will be more popular though.

OTOH, though, there can't be much of a local market on DTW-YKF.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8082 times:

Very true.

There is a lot of business ties between the Detroit-area and the Waterloo/Kitchner area because of the auto industry, it is an ~3 hour drive, depending on delays at the border and horrid truck traffic on the 401.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8057 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
OTOH, though, there can't be much of a local market on DTW-YKF.

I have to think this route will stand or fall based on cnx over ORD to LAX/SFO/SAN etc, also HKG/NRT/PEK. Anything to avoid connecting over YYZ.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Does YFK have pre-clearance?

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2222 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8029 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
The segment cost of DTW-YKF on a turbopropris much less than RJs on ORD-YKF.
Perhaps is will be more popular though.

OTOH, though, there can't be much of a local market on DTW-YKF.

I believe the main reason NW flew DTW-YKF was for Toyota employees / suppliers coming from Nagoya to Toyota's plant in Cambridge, Ontario.

I don't think either AA or JL flies ORD-NGO, so it would be interesting to know what traffic AA is targeting.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22926 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8006 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I believe the main reason NW flew DTW-YKF was for Toyota employees / suppliers coming from Nagoya to Toyota's plant in Cambridge, Ontario.

With one daily flight to NGO, how could that traffic possibly support multiple daily flights to YKF?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I don't think either AA or JL flies ORD-NGO, so it would be interesting to know what traffic AA is targeting.

No, but they will need to start it if they have hopes of picking up the Toyota contract (that was the primary reason UA flew SFO-NGO for a while).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8005 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Does YFK have pre-clearance?

Pretty certain the answer is no. Not nearly enough trans-border traffic, in fact this might be the only trans-border route at the moment.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7909 times:

I personally don't think that AA entirely believes there is defined and sustainable market for YKF travelers to ORD as a destination. From a business perspective, there are very few economic ties between KW and Chicago. But I do think this is a decent move by AA with respect to transiting pax.

I live and work literally down the road from YKF so I'll give this service a shot for a weekend when it starts up. If I like what I see I'll consider using it to connect to further U.S. destinations as opposed to paying obscene parking fares at YYZ.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Surprised in a way that AA picked Kitchener and not Hamilton.

I would assume they are targeting the tech and auto sector dollars.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I believe the main reason NW flew DTW-YKF was for Toyota employees / suppliers coming from Nagoya to Toyota's plant in Cambridge, Ontario.

I believe the Toyota plant was secondary. Up until a few years ago Kitchener had massive auto-parts plants like Budd Canada (and others I can't name off-hand) that supplied the Big 3 in DTW. Those businesses went belly-up and NWLink quickly pulled out.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Does YFK have pre-clearance?

Pretty certain the answer is no. Not nearly enough trans-border traffic, in fact this might be the only trans-border route at the moment.

That answer is definitely no, and neither does YHM. YKF is as basic an international airport as you will ever see. This route will be the only scheduled trans-border traffic for the airport apart from the occasional Sunwing flight to Mexico.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinehaggisman From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7899 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Does YFK have pre-clearance?

Pretty certain the answer is no. Not nearly enough trans-border traffic, in fact this might be the only trans-border route at the moment.

I doubt it too. When I lived in Guelph (just up the road), I used YKF frequently, and the "International Arrivals/Departures" hall was just a tiny doorway off to the side. It is now a bigger door with frosted glass, but what lies behind is still very small. There is a Canada Customs office there (for obvious reasons), but no pre-clearance as far as I know.

I have no idea if this is going to create a building boom in the terminal, but I somehow doubt it.  

YKF is a great little airport, beats the hell out of driving to the insanity that is YYZ. And yes - the community provides an astonishing amount of support - the YKF - YYC flights I have been are quite full most times - Westjet usually have a 737-700 on that route and once in a while downsize to a -600


Scotty



e pluribus Scotsman
User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7886 times:

Could Eagle be getting some type of subsidy from the city or Ontario for this route?

YKF is not a pre-clearance airport. Here is a link to the lisk of pre-clearance airports:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/contacts/preclear_locations.xml (Canada pre-clearance: Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Victoria). RJs from Canada are seen at T5 at ORD from Reginia, Quebec City, and London).

It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7838 times:

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?

Hamilton - Not if there is service to YKF. It's only a 45-minute drive between the airports.
North Bay - Doubt the market is big enough.
Thunder Bay - Maybe, but it would be risky.
Timmins - Same boat as North Bay.
Toronto City - PD already flies to MDW.
Tremblant - Not a chance. The seasonal market is marginal at best. You're better off connecting in YTZ with PD from MDW.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7829 times:

I think Toronto City to ORD would do well. The money in Chicago is closer to ORD, and many more connections.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7766 times:

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 14):
I think Toronto City to ORD would do well. The money in Chicago is closer to ORD, and many more connections.

PD's target market is business travelers. MDW is slightly closer to Chicago's financial district, and cheaper for them to fly to as well.

Also, all slots at YTZ have been allocated to PD and AC. So AA has no chance of getting in there.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
Could Eagle be getting some type of subsidy from the city or Ontario for this route?

I doubt it. Waterloo Region isn't desperate for this service. The economy here is doing quite well.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

Thanks for the info! I've only been to YYZ and YUL and am not that familiar with the Waterloo region. Glad to hear the economy is doing well and I hope this route does well!

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2222 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7743 times:

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 14):
I think Toronto City to ORD would do well. The money in Chicago is closer to ORD, and many more connections.

Does AA Eagle have any aircraft that are allowed to fly into Toronto City? I didn't think RJs were allowed there.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineRJLover From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7733 times:

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/contacts/preclear_locations.xml (Canada pre-clearance: Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Victoria). RJs from Canada are seen at T5 at ORD from Reginia, Quebec City, and London).

The "Victoria" pre-clearance is ONLY for the passengers departing on the Coho (Black Ball) ferry to Port Angeles, Washington (and even then, I think it is only the Customs half [you do Immigration in Port Angeles]).

YYJ has no customs pre-clearance available.



Last Flight(s): YHZ-YYZ-YHZ.....Next Flight(s): YHZ-YYZ-IAH // IAH-SEA-YYJ // YYJ-YYZ-YHZ
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22926 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7711 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
PD's target market is business travelers. MDW is slightly closer to Chicago's financial district,

But many - perhaps most - business travelers aren't going downtown, and few are going to suburban areas that are markedly closer to MDW than to ORD.

PD is in MDW for two reasons:

1) Airfield congestion/slots

2) FIS congestion. PD can park an airplane on an international gate at MDW whenever it likes. That's simply not true for large parts of the day at ORD.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7686 times:

On another topic related to trans-border traffic, will WestJet ever serve Chicago (ORD or MDW) or DFW?

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7551 times:

Thus without pre-clearance, it means this flight will arrive in ORD at T-5, correct?
Not the greatest of connections, but we'll see.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 10):
I believe the Toyota plant was secondary. Up until a few years ago Kitchener had massive auto-parts plants like Budd Canada (and others I can't name off-hand) that supplied the Big 3 in DTW. Those businesses went belly-up and NWLink quickly pulled out.

I think that going back to the previous point, there likely was not much local (automotive business traffic) on DTW-YFK because it simply does not make sense to fly versus drive.

I can see that when the local economy got hammered it rendered the flight uneconomical, plus the run-up in fuel prices, plus now the retirement of the Saab fleet.

Again, the issue of international taxes comes into play. One can drive to BUF or DTW and save a significant amount by avoiding all of the international taxes and fees.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?

NW used to fly MSP-Thunder Bay, but that was dropped with DL phased-out the Saab fleet and the route could not support RJ service. Most of those cities are long and thin for RJ service.

Honestly I think that ORD-YKF is pretty thin, but we will give it the benefit of the doubt. Considering how AA has challenges on making much larger markets out of ORD work, we'll see.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
I have to think this route will stand or fall based on cnx over ORD to LAX/SFO/SAN etc, also HKG/NRT/PEK. Anything to avoid connecting over YYZ.

Agreed. This route will serve as a US gateway for the KW market.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Also, all slots at YTZ have been allocated to PD and AC. So AA has no chance of getting in there.

AA would need turboprop equipment to fly into YTZ. That is all that's permitted.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2864 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

Very interesting, and quite unexpected! If anyone was to try this route I would have expected UA, which has been rapidly expanding its Canadian network in recent years. AA hasn't added a new Canadian market in a very long time, and all of their Canadian stations are (or were, i.e. YWG, YQB) considerably larger and more prominent than this one! Not to mention the future of Eagle - involving the aircraft due to fly this route - and even the carrier's entire ORD hub repeatedly called into question.

This is yet another sign that AA's ORD hub is indeed safe and sound. It seems AA will be mimicking F9's DEN strategy - slashing redundant capacity on highly competitive trunk routes (i.e. EWR, PHL, FRA, ATL, BRU, PDX, YYZ, DEN), while pushing into small markets that the competition (in this case WN and UA) has overlooked. The newest additions from ORD, such as HEL, ILM, CHO, ART, and now the likes of ALO, SUX, and YKF, would seem to confirm this. If F9's fortunes are any indication, this may be the only way that AA can retain a viable ORD hub...



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineEmiratesA345 From Canada, joined Jun 2003, 2123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7146 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
I doubt it. Waterloo Region isn't desperate for this service. The economy here is doing quite well

The economy in Waterloo Region doing quite well might be a bit of an overstatement. Manufacturing businesses have been closing up shop at an alarming rate. It seems like everytime you open up a regional newspaper, there are reports of factories moving their operations south, closing up entirely or laying off workers.

In any event, I wish American good luck. At minimum it'll make spotting more interesting at YKF.

-Mark



You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
25 mah4546 : It has a harder time on more competitive routes because of its cost structure. But AA has done very well on less competitive markets launched over th
26 WestJet747 : Your assertion may be correct, but for every factory that moves to Mexico there is a new tech company setting up shop in Waterloo. Over the past few
27 yyzame : Maybe it was a joint plan from WestJet and Eagle seeing as they seem to keep on expanding their code-share routes. Maybe this open's up another code-s
28 AirNovaBAe146 : +1. I'm sure most people perusing this thread read about the two RIM employees who caused the diversion to YVR of an AC B777 that was bound for China
29 yyzame : Exactly what I was thinking. With such a large worldwide company I think them alone could support this route if they choose to start flying out of YK
30 Post contains links WestJet747 : The local paper is reporting that local businesses will be supporting the service with $150,000 in investments: Flights to Chicago from Waterloo airp
31 yenne09 : I don't know what is happening to Hamilton. This city was based on the steel industry which has declined so much. All the attempts to built something
32 NorthStarDC4M : Hamilton is possible, though with the economy of Hamilton it won't be soon. North Bay... not enough demand Thunder Bay, maybe... especially with the
33 PSU.DTW.SCE : Sudbury, North Bay, Thunder Veto on all of those. Sudbury - thats getting kind of long and thin, considering there are almost zero economic ties betwe
34 ScottB : Pinning the fortunes of the region and this route on RIM might be unwise. Although they had a remarkable run, the introduction of the iPhone & An
35 Cubsrule : Driving to DTW is not attractive. It's nearly a 4 hour drive even if you sail through the border crossing. BUF is closer but still probably a 3 hour
36 PSU.DTW.SCE : Yeah, the drive from DTW-YKF to catch a flight is not very attractive. For O&D, it makes sense to drive between the two markets, but in comparison
37 WestJet747 : I've driven from Kitchener to BUF in just over two hours on a couple occasions (obviously in ideal weather/traffic conditions). Far more attractive t
38 WA707atMSP : Ironically, in the late 1940s there were serious discussions about making YQG the primary airport for Detroit. A US domestic terminal would have been
39 Cubsrule : I think for me, I probably agree, but it's important not to overstate the inconvenience of ORD, I think. The morning flight in particular arrives at
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