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Pan Am Boeing 377 Stratocruiser?  
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5467 posts, RR: 13
Posted (2 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 6674 times:


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The Pan Am globe made it on these 377's. How many years overlay was there with the 377, 707 and DC-8's flying?
The Pan Am DC-8 thread got me to wondering. And if I attached this to that thread it may have gotten lost in the shuffle.
Where did the 377's fly? Did they fly into MIA? When and where was the last flight of this rare bird for Pan Am? While on this topic, when did NW and UA terminate their 377 service? And what routes did NW and UA fly their Stratocruisers?


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User currently offlineBureaucromancer From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 6616 times:

Looks like the 377s were gone sometime in 61. The jets also brought a pretty big jump in the overall size of the airline so I'm not terribly surprised they managed the switch pretty quickly on the kind of routes the major propliners were flying (although it looks like the DC-6s and 7s held on a few more years).

User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5467 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 6601 times:

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 1):
(although it looks like the DC-6s and 7s held on a few more years).

Thank you for responding. PAA actually got rid of their DC-7's and held on to some DC-6's. They flew those on mercy flights getting folks out of Castroland Cuba in 1962 and 1963!



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User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 6560 times:

I think the Strats flew to AKL until 1961ish

User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4922 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

I have never been able to get used to the nose on those Stratocruisers. They look so strange. But the view from up front should have been nothing less than amazing,


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6748 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Thread starter):
Did they fly into MIA?

AFAIK PA never scheduled B377s into MIA-- nor did any other passenger airline except NW/EA.

UA did try the B377 on SFO-SEA and SFO-LAX, but probably 90%+ of their B377 flights were to HNL. Last one went to BOAC in 1954 most likely.


User currently offlinePI4EVER From United States of America, joined May 2009, 627 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5865 times:
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PA operated the B377 throughout their Atlantic and Pacific network until 1961. The last scheduled service was HNL-SFO. The picture of the Strat at NAS Agana in 1960 brought back fond memories of seeing the PAA service on Saturday's depart for Wake Island, Honolulu and San Francisco. As a military brat who lived on Guam for over 8 years, the flights on Pan Am and TALOA/Transocean were the flights to see leave the island as the "prestige" way of getting back to the States. I was more accustomed to military charter flights on Flying Tigers or Navy and Air Force MATS flights.
PA operated the Strat through Guam to MNL and HKG and the Strat was the equipment for PA's famous Flights 1 and 2, the round-the-world service. PA Boeing 707's began service to Guam and the Pacific network in 1960 and 1961. I distinctly remember an "Open House" tour of PA Boeing 707 N715PA "Clipper Liberty Bell" that operated the first scheduled jet flight from Guam. Everyone touring the 707 received a plastic model of the 707.
In its day, aside the operational problems the airplane experienced in its service life, the Stratocruiser was the "luxury liner" of the day. Even Transocean who upgraded from DC-4 and Constellation aircraft to ex-BOAC Strats promoted them as "new luxury" aircraft flying their "non scheduled supplemental airline" service.
I believe UA flew the Strats almost exclusively to Hawaii, and NW flew them both on Transcon, Alaska, Hawaii and Asia services, but retired them earlier than PA.



watch what you want. you may get it.
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1855 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 5):
Quoting zippyjet (Thread starter):
Did they fly into MIA?

AFAIK PA never scheduled B377s into MIA-- nor did any other passenger airline except NW/EA.

What about RANSA...Didn't they operate Strats into MIA?


User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5686 times:

Funny this topic came up.....was watching this earlier:

pt I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Waf72ajvY

Pt II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGtc8GelfM4


Pt III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fwp9Vheh8E


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 6):
and the Strat was the equipment for PA's famous Flights 1 and 2, the round-the-world service.

Only the transpacific portion of the round-the-world flights used the Stratocruiser. For example, in their January 1958 timetable, the DC-7C was used on the transatlantic sectors as far as LHR, the DC-6B between LHR and HND (with 7 or 8 stops), and the Stratocruiser across the Pacific.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1988 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

NW took their Strats off the Asian run by 1955 with the delivery of the L-1049G's. The NW Strats after that operated SEA-GEG-MSP-MDW-IDL and MSP-MKE-IDL. For a year or so, they were used on the NW-EA MSP-MDW-MIA interchange before NW was awarded the route from CHI TO MIA themselves. The interchange was operated the majority of the time with DC-6B's. UA never operated their Strats east of LAX or SFO, and were used on Hawaii flights exclusively, although they may have also operated tag on LAX-SFO flights. PA had the largest fleet, the ones they bought from Boeing and Amercian's which they inherited with they bought American Overseas. They operated them Trans Atlantic, Trans Pacific, but also to South America, so the above comment they never operated out of MIA may not be correct. They lost one over the Amazon rain forest in 1952 or there abouts. As has been posted, the last B-377 flights on Pan Am were operated between SFO and HNL, and I think that was in late 1960, not 1961. The reason they lasted on the Trans Pacific routes longer than the Trans Atlantic is that I don't believe PA ever operated 707-121's on the West Coast to HNL route, but waited for the -321's to begin jet service to Hawaii.

The NW Strats were retired before PA's because NW was able to trade them into Lockheed on the L-188C's in 1959. The specter of NW putting them back in service to replace the Electras after the Tell City crash was one of the reasons that the FAA did not want to ground the Electra, believing that the Electras flying at lower speeds were much safer than NW flying the B-377's again.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5467 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 8):
Funny this topic came up.....was watching this earlier:

Thank you folks! Just spent 90 minutes on youtube. Plenty of great aviation vids!   



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User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6748 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5232 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 7):
What about RANSA...Didn't they operate Strats into MIA?

Fortunately I remembered to say no passenger B377s into MIA except NW/EA. That excludes RANSA, doesn't it?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 10):
PA had the largest fleet, the ones they bought from Boeing and Amercian's which they inherited with they bought American Overseas.

Pan Am's fleet became significantly smaller due to all the accidents. Can't be many airline/aircraft type combinations with a higher percentage of writeoffs than Pan Am's B377s. Of the 29 they operated, 7 were lost in accidents (3 were non-fatal). They had another that involved a fatality but not a hull loss when a passenger was sucked out when an improperly closed door opened and the cabin depressurized after takeoff from GIG in July 1952, only 3 months after the fatal crash in the Amazon jungle (April 29, 1952).

Quoting milesrich (Reply 10):
They operated them Trans Atlantic, Trans Pacific, but also to South America, so the above comment they never operated out of MIA may not be correct. They lost one over the Amazon rain forest in 1952 or there abouts.

That flight was operating EZE-MVD-GIG-POS-IDL, which was the standard Stratocruiser route to/from South America at the time. Can't find any Pan Am Stratocruisers to/from MIA in a couple of timetables during that period.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5467 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 8):
Funny this topic came up.....was watching this earlier:

Caught those vids on You Tube! I get a kick out of that standard 1940's/1950's cheesy film documentary music.
And those Don Pardo announcers.    I saw a funky panel like shutters on an attic fan that opened to the galley. Like the Connie the galley looked more like a kitchen from what I saw; as compared to the newer compact galleys on more current aircraft. Did these galleys actually have cooktops as well as your standard ovens and refrigerators? Were they gas?
Was this on the upper level of the Strat?



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 14):
Did these galleys actually have cooktops as well as your standard ovens and refrigerators?

No, I'm quite sure they didn't.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 14):
Was this on the upper level of the Strat?

Yes.


User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1636 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5032 times:
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Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
I have never been able to get used to the nose on those Stratocruisers. They look so strange. But the view from up front should have been nothing less than amazing,

In my Air Force days, I got to ride in the cockpit of the military version of the B-337, the KC-97 and I can tell you the cockpit was huge and the views out from all the cockpit windows was like being in a greenhouse.

The cockpit was so wide that the pilots had a walkway between their seats and the cockpit windows so they didn’t have to climb over their seats. On the co-pilots side there was a walkway between the flight engineers panel and the fuselage to get to the co-pilots seat.

A few times I got to sit in one of the jump seats for takeoff’s and landing, one of the seats was just behind and to the left of the Captains seat and if you kneeled in the aisle you were shoulder to shoulder with the Captain. If we were flying into a civilian airport with a lot of air traffic, the Captain would ask anyone not working in the cockpit to kneel in the aisles between the pilots seats and the fuselage and act as an extra set of eyes looking for traffic.

Behind the pilots seat was the Flight Engineers seat facing sideways and behind the FE’s seat was the navigators station and another jump seat, the Air Force usually flew the KC-97’s with 2 Flight Engineers on board in addition to either a load master or boom operator. The cockpit could easily hold about a dozen people standing up.

JetStar


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Quoting jetstar (Reply 16):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
I have never been able to get used to the nose on those Stratocruisers. They look so strange. But the view from up front should have been nothing less than amazing,

In my Air Force days, I got to ride in the cockpit of the military version of the B-337, the KC-97 and I can tell you the cockpit was huge and the views out from all the cockpit windows was like being in a greenhouse.

The cockpit was so wide that the pilots had a walkway between their seats and the cockpit windows so they didn’t have to climb over their seats. On the co-pilots side there was a walkway between the flight engineers panel and the fuselage to get to the co-pilots seat.

Here's a photo.



User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1636 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4864 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Quoting jetstar (Reply 16):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
I have never been able to get used to the nose on those Stratocruisers. They look so strange. But the view from up front should have been nothing less than amazing,

In my Air Force days, I got to ride in the cockpit of the military version of the B-337, the KC-97 and I can tell you the cockpit was huge and the views out from all the cockpit windows was like being in a greenhouse.

The cockpit was so wide that the pilots had a walkway between their seats and the cockpit windows so they didn’t have to climb over their seats. On the co-pilots side there was a walkway between the flight engineers panel and the fuselage to get to the co-pilots seat.

Here's a photo.

I never have seen this picture, it might have been from an early pre production model, here are photo’s of the cockpit and flight engineers panel of a C-97, I believe the B-377 cockpit was very close to the same configuration as the C-97.

Flight Engineers panel


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Photo © Mike Bates
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Photo © Dmitry Avdeev



As I said in my previous post, behind the FE panel there is a walkway about 2 feet wide for access to the co-pilots seat.

Cockpit


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Photo © Ralph M. Pettersen



Since the KC/C-97 was basically the same as a B-377, military pilots could get a civilian B-377 type rating in a KC/C-97, I know a few who did and also a military flight engineer could get a FAA reciprocating engine flight engineers rating, again I know a few who did, all that was needed in both cases was military pilots who were also FAA approved civilian check pilots and a flight engineer who was also a FAA check flight engineer.

JetStar


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4780 times:

Quoting jetstar (Reply 16):
In my Air Force days, I got to ride in the cockpit of the military version of the B-337, the KC-97 and I can tell you the cockpit was huge and the views out from all the cockpit windows was like being in a greenhouse.

I got a ride on a C-97 (Wright Patterson to Offutt) sat next to a one star general. He saw my SR-71 tie tack and grilled me the whole flight for information.

The flight was a SAC courier flight that originated at Pease in New York, with a stop in Wright Pat. There was a full meal served just like an airline. Overall the flight was just like an airliner except there were no windows? But when we landed myself and another enlisted type had to unload the baggage through a hatch in the floor.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5467 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4757 times:

Quoting jetstar (Reply 16):
In my Air Force days, I got to ride in the cockpit of the military version of the B-337, the KC-97 and I can tell you the cockpit was huge and the views out from all the cockpit windows was like being in a greenhouse.

Were these flight decks saunas during sunny hot weather? That goes for both the 377 and KC 97 military birds.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
I have never been able to get used to the nose on those Stratocruisers. They look so strange. But the view from up front should have been nothing less than amazing,

I can relate to that but here's one which gets my FUGLY award.



The 747 pulls off the humb much better.



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User currently offlineBureaucromancer From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 10):
believing that the Electras flying at lower speeds were much safer than NW flying the B-377's again.

I know the loss rates were high, but what had the FAA so scared of the 377 at a time that the aircraft WAS still in mainline service and turbines were unquestionably the exception?


User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1636 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4464 times:
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Quoting zippyjet (Reply 20):
Were these flight decks saunas during sunny hot weather? That goes for both the 377 and KC 97 military birds.

If I remember back over 40 years ago, there were shades on the upper windows in the cockpit. The airplane was pressurized, but I don’t remember if it was air conditioned, but while sitting on the ground in a hot day, 2 of the side windows in the cockpit were slide windows that can be opened, these windows were quite large and could be used as an escape hatch, there were even ropes in the cockpit to use to slide down if needed.

Besides the cockpit widows, there were 2 emergency exits on each side of the fuselage, and on the ground we would remove them to get fresh air and on the C-97 we could also open up the rear clam shell cargo doors as well for better cabin ventilation on the ground.

To give you an idea of the size of the cockpit, the cockpit extended to just behind the small round window above the i in US AIR FORCE, this window was where the navigator’s station was.


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Photo © Steve Brimley



JetStar


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