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Emirates 4 Daily A380'S To LHR  
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8484 posts, RR: 55
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16578 times:
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According to www.emirates.com

From March 25th the gulf carrier will operate 4 of their 5 daily LHR flights with Airbus A380's.

The only flight still to operate with a 77W is EK008.

Only a matter of time until that becomes an A380 service too.


111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333,342
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecityairline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 686 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16082 times:

Amazing!

The capacity on London-Dubai is huge and it's great to see them grow.
I know yields are good and the service seems very lucrative. But what I do want to know is if this is ONLY a move of prestige and/or to be superior to its neighbour Gulf carriers?
Or are the loads and the need for more capacity actually that great?

/Alex



I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17051 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15950 times:

Quoting cityairline (Reply 1):
But what I do want to know is if this is ONLY a move of prestige and/or to be superior to its neighbour Gulf carriers?

Well they will have close to 100 A380s, so they need to send them somewhere  



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1666 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15887 times:

Brilliant. Always good to see more of the Superjumbo...

Qantas is soon going all A380 at LHR and SQ will convert the 77W flight to an A380 soon as well...

With Malaysian launching their A380 to LHR next year and Korean Air most likely sending it to LHR too at some point there are going to be a lot of the birds around.

I wonder if the A380 pier at T3 will be extended to accommodate more aircraft.



Next Flights: LGW-SVG (738-DY), SVG-LHR (319-BA), LHR-HKG (388-BA), HKG-SYD (333-CX), SYD-HKG (333-CX), HKG-LHR (388-BA)
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7985 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15656 times:

I still think fairly soon--possibly maybe as early as this summer season!--SQ will switch to the A380-800 on the SQ 001/002 route between SIN and SFO via HKG. Given the huge expatriate population of former residents of Hong Kong living in the Bay Area, this would certainly work.

User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3196 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15285 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3):
I wonder if the A380 pier at T3 will be extended to accommodate more aircraft

There's not a lot of room and given that whole area needs a complete redevelopment, I would doubt they'd add to it as by the time it was completed, T3 would be the next redevelopment priority. Remember that Malaysia and Korean are over at T4 so there's only a need for QF x 2, EK and SQ on stand at any one time on a normal day.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15164 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Well they will have close to 100 A380s, so they need to send them somewhere

They won't. They will have sold off the first ones before the (tentatively) last ones arrive.

Quoting cityairline (Reply 1):
But what I do want to know is if this is ONLY a move of prestige and/or to be superior to its neighbour Gulf carriers?
Or are the loads and the need for more capacity actually that great?

They wouldn't throw these A380s at the market if they couldn't fill them, somehow, but I'm not so sure about..

Quoting cityairline (Reply 1):
I know yields are good and the service seems very lucrative.

LHR is a highly competitive playing ground and everybody is fighting for the customer's favor. Every airline needs to distinguish itself from the rest and if you can offer high frequency, great on board service, a prestigious aircraft and the lowest fares because everybody else has to put up with higher CASMs, then you will make the lives of the competition very hard indeed. I'm not sure it makes money in the short term, but it's a brilliant strategy to cement your position in the longrun.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7360 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15047 times:
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Quoting something (Reply 6):
They will have sold off the first ones before the (tentatively) last ones arrive.

They had stated all will be in service at the same time. At the moment, we're tentatively looking at EK sending at least 7 A380s to the UK by November 2013 (LHR 5 MAN 2). They might be comtemplating upgrading a BHX service by then as well.

Edited as now found a recent link where they are replacing them afer 12 years. "From September through November 2017, a further 75 A380s will be delivered to the Dubai-based airline, and Clark said he would ultimately prefer an operating fleet of more than 90 of the extra-large aircraft. "If we could, but we can't,"". So we have 2.5 years at least with 90 in the fleet (Nov 2017 to 2020) but it also indicates that production may be taken up through from Nov 2017 to 2020 with other airlines so are other orders imminent?

[Edited 2011-12-15 09:01:25]

User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15052 times:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Well they will have close to 100 A380s, so they need to send them somewhere

They won't. They will have sold off the first ones before the (tentatively) last ones arrive.

Thanks for that, I was really wondering how they were going to fill all that capacity. Does anybody know how much A380's will EK actually operate at a time?

EDIT: You were faster david_itl, so I'm still puzzled  Confused

[Edited 2011-12-15 08:39:16]

User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7360 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 14984 times:
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So the A380 can look forward to 90 sales every 12 years then. No doubting the actual A380 programme will be showing a profit as these 1st replacement wave (deliveries to 2029) takes in to 333 and the 2nd wave to 423 (deliveries by 2041), with no other orders being placed. And that's not taking into account EK actually ordering more because they want more.

User currently offlinemickey90 From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14703 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 8):
Does anybody know how much A380's will EK actually operate at a time?

If they bring their order to 120 a380's you'll probobly see them operate more than 100 at a time.



It's better to be in the air wishing you were on the ground than being on the ground wishing you were in the air
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14587 times:

That's just crazy, I can't imagine anything but serious overcapacity. There has to be a catch.

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12374 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14529 times:
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Quoting PezySPU (Reply 11):
That's just crazy, I can't imagine anything but serious overcapacity.

Which some people keep saying. Yet EK's passenger numbers continue to grow year on year and they continue to make profits that most other airlines can only dream about.

Perhaps the catch is that they know what they're doing?   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14514 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
they continue to make profits that most other airlines can only dream about

Absolutely. Here are its net profit (millions, USD) and net profit margin between 2006 and 2010 (with 2006 furthest way):

Net result 1,462.89 963.31 186.78 1,367.54 843.14
Net margin 9.87 % 8.14 % 1.58 % 12.93 % 10.61 %

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Perhaps the catch is that they know what they're doing?

 



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinetheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14457 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 11):
That's just crazy, I can't imagine anything but serious overcapacity. There has to be a catch.

Remember a lot of these passengers will be transfering in Dubai to other services to Australia, Far East etc, so as these markets grow EK will need to grow the flights such as London that feed them.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12859 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14371 times:
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LHR slots are too precious to not utilize the A380 there.

Quoting ba319-131 (Thread starter):
The only flight still to operate with a 77W is EK008.

Only a matter of time until that becomes an A380 service too.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3):
Qantas is soon going all A380 at LHR and SQ will convert the 77W flight to an A380 soon as well...

With the lack of the 3rd runway, the only chance LHR has to accomodate growth is going to be up-gauging to

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3):
I wonder if the A380 pier at T3 will be extended to accommodate more aircraft.

As already noted, I do not see the room. My impression was T5C, the two gates at T4, and then future gates at the rebuilt T1 would be the extent of LHR A380 gates.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
LHR is a highly competitive playing ground and everybody is fighting for the customer's favor. Every airline needs to distinguish itself from the rest and if you can offer high frequency, great on board service, a prestigious aircraft and the lowest fares because everybody else has to put up with higher CASMs, then you will make the lives of the competition very hard indeed.

EK isn't silly. Since the A380 will attract customers anywhere, they'll send the aircraft where it makes the most money. e.g., why they pulled the A380 (IIRC, since returned) to JFK.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
I'm not sure it makes money in the short term, but it's a brilliant strategy to cement your position in the longrun.

I suspect it is both. The CASM reduction should more than offset any added costs/discountig required by substituting the A380. Now, I do suspect the profit is in providing the seats for more 'secondary city' connections.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Quoting PezySPU (Reply 11):
That's just crazy, I can't imagine anything but serious overcapacity.

Which some people keep saying. Yet EK's passenger numbers continue to grow year on year and they continue to make profits that most other airlines can only dream about.

Everywhere EK is accused of over-capacity yet they make $$$.

Look at their current fleet. The bulk is 77Ws! Since the A388 will be used on all route lenght, I'll just group by size/capacity
27 A332 (237 in 3-class)
18 A343/A345 (267 or 258 in 3-class)
19 777-200 (3 non-ER, 6 ER, 10LR) (call it 290 in 3-class)
73 777-300 (12 non-ER, 61 ER) (364 in 3-class)
18 (19?) A388 (517 in 3-class, but costs only 445 seats vs. 77W due to lower CASM)

The 'capacity jumps' are certainly managable. When the A332/A343/A345/772 are replaced with A359s (or 77Ws), there will be a need for growth in seats on the existing 'trunk routes.' (Certainly at prefered travel times.) Due to the low CASM of the A388, the jump between the 77W and the A388 is not difficult to manage. If with 42% more seats 22% more revenue is not possible... down-gauge the route again (a la JFK) and hunt for a new yeild manager...

EK has 154 aircraft today (maybe 155? Its tough to keep track of the deliveries). Today about 1/2 the fleet is one size, the 777-300 which used to be their largest airframe. With Concourse 4 and the new terminal where EK will expel everyone else out of Terminal 1... I see EK easily having a fleet of over 200 aircraft. I see no reason to believe about half couldn't be the A388 and the other half the 'feeder fleet.'

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14317 times:

Quoting theginge (Reply 14):
Remember a lot of these passengers will be transfering in Dubai to other services to Australia, Far East etc, so as these markets grow EK will need to grow the flights such as London that feed them.

Of course, but I just can't imagine that they won't face overcapacity sooner or later, for shorter or longer period of time. It's almost 100 A380's and that's just part of the fleet for God's sake! I do very well understand that they've spent a lot of time and efforts carefully planing their strategy and I understand a lot, but I'm sure that even they themselves are not 100% sure it will work out.

But never mind, we'll see, topic here was 4 daily A380's to LHR.  


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6037 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14274 times:

There has got to be room at EK at the bottom end for the likes of the 789 as "route developer planes"


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinemickey90 From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14120 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
18 (19?) A388 (517 in 3-class, but costs only 445 seats vs. 77W due to lower CASM)

They'll have 20 tomorrow(16/12) as A6-EDS will be delivered to them.  



It's better to be in the air wishing you were on the ground than being on the ground wishing you were in the air
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14081 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Quoting something (Reply 6):
LHR is a highly competitive playing ground and everybody is fighting for the customer's favor. Every airline needs to distinguish itself from the rest and if you can offer high frequency, great on board service, a prestigious aircraft and the lowest fares because everybody else has to put up with higher CASMs, then you will make the lives of the competition very hard indeed.

EK isn't silly. Since the A380 will attract customers anywhere, they'll send the aircraft where it makes the most money. e.g., why they pulled the A380 (IIRC, since returned) to JFK.

But this is what I admire about EK. I am sure there are routes that would be more profitable for EK to put an A380 on in the short run, and I am also sure their presence at LHR wouldn't collapse if they didn't put a 4th daily frequency on the route. This move however will pave EK the way for the future at LHR, great market exposure, and will open a huge market share to them.

I wish more airlines had the aggression of EK. Soon every major European airport will see double or triple daily EK A380, and the same can be said about many destinations in Asia, Australia and North America. All the while major carriers like NH, JJ, CX seem over-challenged to operate one of these planes.

Nothing short of amazing.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12646 times:

Frequency trumps aircraft size, eh? Seems EK has made it work both ways... impressive!

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 16):
Of course, but I just can't imagine that they won't face overcapacity sooner or later, for shorter or longer period of time. It's almost 100 A380's and that's just part of the fleet for God's sake! I do very well understand that they've spent a lot of time and efforts carefully planing their strategy and I understand a lot, but I'm sure that even they themselves are not 100% sure it will work out.

No business enterprise is ever entirely certain. There is risk in every plan, and the companies are aware of this. There is even risk in believing the results that companies show to the rest of the world (just look at Enron). But I would say that EK is exceptionally well positioned to take a big share of passenger traffic on its side of the world, their strategy is solid, and they seem to be executing it better than most other companies. I see no inherent reason why 100 or even 200 is some kind of a fundamental limit. Not all airline companies have to be of the same size. As is seen in other areas of business, more successful companies can take a very big market share while the others shrink or die. Remember that if EK serves a city in Europe, they can shuffle passengers not just from that city to Dubai (which would be a very small number of people), but all over Asia/Pacific/Africa/Middle East. There is unlikely to be enough people to fly a A380 direct from Berlin to Melbourne, but there may be enough people in entire Europe to fly from Dubai to Melbourne on an A380, and there may be enough people in Berlin to fly some place in Asia via Dubai on an A380.

The limits, if there are any, are more in the area of airport capacity and landing rights/traffic rights to particular countries and airports.


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11540 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 20):
Remember that if EK serves a city in Europe, they can shuffle passengers not just from that city to Dubai (which would be a very small number of people), but all over Asia/Pacific/Africa/Middle East.

I understand hub and spoke model, don't worry. But the rest of your post was informative, thanks.  


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11065 times:

Quoting cityairline (Reply 1):
and/or to be superior to its neighbour Gulf carriers?

More like superior to every other carrier out there operating out of LHR (or anywhere else) going any other place...

If any airport makes a case for the A380, it's LHR. I suspect others will follow, mostly in Asia.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24788 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Quoting PezySPU (Reply 11):
That's just crazy, I can't imagine anything but serious overcapacity.

Which some people keep saying. Yet EK's passenger numbers continue to grow year on year and they continue to make profits that most other airlines can only dream about.

If other airlines benefited from the low handling costs at their major hubs that EK enjoys at DXB, which has some of the lowest handling costs of any major airport, plus the advantages of being government-owned and also having the same owner running both the airport, handling agent and serving as the regulatory authority, they'd be making big profits too. The fact that unions are illegal in the UAE and that both corporate and personal income taxes are non-existent are other factors that airlines not lucky enough to be based in the Gulf can only dream of.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10717 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
If other airlines benefited from the low handling costs at their major hubs that EK enjoys at DXB, which has some of the lowest handling costs of any major airport, plus the advantages of being government-owned and also having the same owner running both the airport, handling agent and serving as the regulatory authority, they'd be making big profits too. The fact that unions are illegal in the UAE and that both corporate and personal income taxes are non-existent are other factors that airlines not lucky enough to be based in the Gulf can only dream of.

+ the fact that instead of decent wages and benefit packages (ie dependends of flight attendants aren't covered by insurance etc.), they provide their employees with accomodation to lower the wages even further. Compared to the surroundings of New York, London or Tokyo land around DXB and constructions, labor, water and power are virtually free which means EK crew can live on a much smaller salary than crews based at JFK, LHR or NRT.

You also get about zilch when you leave the job, or you're fired - for engaging in premarital sex for example. But it's everybody's own decision if that's the kind of company they want to support financially.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
25 YTZ : The reason I don't fly EK is quite frankly because they suck in Economy. True cattle class. I don't know how it is on the A380 but that's my impressio
26 cloudyapple : It's a B77W in the schedules. Every one of the Emirates flights I have been on ex LHR, and I have been on a lot, was full to the brim. There's a reas
27 ju068 : What configuration will they have on the newest flight? If I remember correctly someone mentioned here that they have various configurations for diffe
28 mikey72 : I would just remind everyone that EK do and will only ever serve one destination non-stop from LHR. They are also rapidly approaching maximum frequen
29 Post contains links flood : Indeed. Clark reiterated (again) his thirst for more A380s today: "I am personally very keen to get more A380s. I hope that we will soon order some,"
30 boysteve : My last EK trip was on B77W & A380 and I have to say there is a noticeable difference. Obviously the A380 is 28 inches/71cm wider than the triple
31 scbriml : I don't see EK operating the 787-8 or 787-9. A couple of years ago the were going to completely roll over their A332s with A333s. That would have giv
32 Post contains images lightsaber : That is the most likely future path for EK. I'm certain they would have further simplified their fleet if the A340s had better resale. Slots are trad
33 CFBFrame : Nice point of view. Kind of think you have to compare cost positions for each airline to be able to emulate the EK model. You also have to remember t
34 cmf : National airlines have plenty of advantages over EK. For example, with few exemptions flying EK will require a transfer. Often it will require a much
35 scbriml : As do most "national" airlines. How many international destinations do BA fly to directly from Aberdeen or Edinburgh or Newcastle?
36 cmf : As many as they want. Unlike EK, BA can fly to almost any destination from any of those places. If they are losing customers to EK then figure out ho
37 scbriml : But they don't, that's my point. If you want to fly from Newcastle to Mumbai you either take EK via BXB or BA via LHR.
38 cmf : And with that we are back to square one. But why should EK be put under "government intervention" for that? remember the original claim. And I very m
39 mikey72 : Where is the line in the sand though ? I'm quite sure that funnelling people through DXB to many destinations EK could fill a jet from say Southampto
40 cmf : Line in the sand for what? Customer preference is the market line in the sand. Regulatory bodies draw many other. With EK you would only be able to f
41 Babybus : Wonder where that will leave BA? They'll probably end up in forming an alliance with Ryanair at the other end of the market. Why chose to fly Emirate
42 mikey72 : Well yeah and then on to who know's where. BA could only take you as far as DXB. Surely that is the very essence of EK's strategy. Many of EK's fligh
43 planesarecool : Are there any new A380 gates at LHR T3? By my reckoning, there will be five A380s on the ground at the same time. The A380 pier at T3 only has four st
44 cloudyapple : And a few tugs. I don't see any issue unless UAE4 is delayed by more than 20min.
45 skipness1E : Daystoppers are remote parked on the 590s. Indeed the SQ lunchtime dep is also parked off stand for a few hours. There is no issue.
46 Viscount724 : Low fares are a higher priority for most passengers, especially those in Y class, and EK's lower cost structure (for example, no taxes, no unions, ve
47 cmf : No, BA can fly direct to any place from Southampton, providing they have equipment of course. With EK you need to fly via Dubai. That is the advantag
48 mikey72 : You're kind of contradicting yourself there. There would be a tiny amount of long-haul O&D from Southampton. However EK would open up the entire
49 cmf : Where? How? Would they? What about the area between Southampton and Dubai, there is only so much backtracking people are prepared to do. No I do not
50 mikey72 : Oh you have and I agree. BA for example exploit and are building upon their dominant position at LHR to remain competitive. There seem to be double s
51 Post contains links and images mikey72 : Shame on you ! It's only the best airline commercial ever made.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izkgAdISB4Q
52 parapente : Reply 14 With the lack of the 3rd runway, the only chance LHR has to accomodate growth is going to be up-gauging Spot on. And it is exactly what is ha
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