Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
"Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads  
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 947 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5858 times:

Per the CBC, the Canadian government is finally going to implement rules about how airlines advertise airfares...

I for one, think that it is about time. It was one thing when airfares were quoted on a "plus tax" basis, as taxes are beyond the airlines' control and are the same for all. But the present practice of discounting fares but adding "surcharges" or "fees" for fuel, insurance, etc, is very annoying.

I also don't understand why this has been tolerated for so long. If a store advertised a tv for $199, but asked to pay a "showroom rent surcharge" of $200, they would be nailed to the wall for misleading adversting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...12/16/pol-airline-advertising.html

Any thoughts?

Are there any other jurisdictions where this adverstising is regulated?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

They want to make the airline advertising like gasoline or liquor in Canada. Whatever we see, the price includes all taxes.

On the one hand consumers will think this will work better for them because it's simpler. But simpler pricing is not necessarily better pricing. For example it's easier to hide baggage fees or fuel surcharges in a simple price. From an airline's point of view I completely understand why they do not advertise the tax because they sell the fare, not the tax.

This bill has come up I think because of complaints from the usual crowd who doesn't bother to read the agreement prior to purchase. They then willingly sign & then are shocked that the company had the audacity to do as it said in the agreement & complain. As usual they get the ear of the public because it's easy to point the finger at the faceless corporation.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5674 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I would settle for the legal requirement to advertise a price that includes:
-base fare;
-unavoidable charges (taxes, fuel, etc...);
-cost of highest option when the passenger has to pick among several for a mandatory feature (eg: highest payment processing fee).

Anything else that the customer has a complete choice to add on or not (luggage, food, etc...) can be left off the price, as long as the price is accompanied by a not-so-small disclaimer that "optional features are extra."



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineGerbenYYZ From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Thread starter):

Any thoughts?

Good thing.

Quoting YYZYYT (Thread starter):

Are there any other jurisdictions where this adverstising is regulated?

It's already regulated in Europe, insofar as taxes and surcharges have to be included, but if I was a regulator, I'd go much further. I'd define a flight as containing the following: a ticket including all taxes, charges, fees, etc., paying for it (with a payment method that more than half of the customers have access to, e.g. credit/debit card and NOT some obscure Visa Electron thingy), checking one piece of luggage, check-in (at the airport), and boarding. Also, using the onboard toilet.   Whatever you charge a customer for all this will be the price you're allowed to advertize. You're welcome to offer reductions, say if the passenger chooses not to check their luggage, but THIS will have to go into the footnotes, not the other way around. Also, you're only allowed to advertize with it if at least 20% of your tickets will actually be available at that price.

Airlines should compete by quality of service and price, not by who's best in fooling customers.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5545 times:

Canadian airlines are opposed to this ruling, stating that it will permit foreign carriers to compete by advertising base fares only. While this may be true, it will have to take a pretty clueless person not to realise that the all-in purchase price they accept is comparable to those offered by Canadian airlines.
But again, perhaps that's what the domestic airlines are worried about - that once a customer is lured by the seemingly low fare and navigates through the purchase procedure to be confronted with the real cost of the ticket, they may decide they've "already come this far" and are one click away from completing the sale, rather than canceling the transaction and going with the local airline for essentially the same price. On that aspect, they have a point.
So, how to address this? Require all airlines selling tickets in Canada to adopt the new all-in price advertising.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5513 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 3):

I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).


So now they'll advertise the price as $305 to FLL. You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?


User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5480 times:

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
So now they'll advertise the price as $305 to FLL.

Yes, but theoretically, a US competitor will be able to advertise a flight for say, $250. Naturally, we will all flock to that site and spend several minutes completing the transaction to the point where the credit card comes out to the tune of....$305-ish. Do you abandon the transaction now, or spend even more time going back to the first option for no or negligible financial gain?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5359 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
Yes, but theoretically, a US competitor will be able to advertise a flight for say, $250.

Why will a US competitor be able to advertise at a lower price? If they advertise at the same place they are required to follow the same rules. I.e. a US airline advertising in Canada will need to follow Canadian rules and a Canadian airline advertising in US can do so following US rules.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 3):
I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).



You still see the final price you have to pay before you commit to the fare and can always find out before you purchase the flight what extras you have to pay. As a consumer I would assume you would look before you leap so to speak and don't come and tell anybody that you were mis-informed about the price you have to pay.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24817 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
Yes, but theoretically, a US competitor will be able to advertise a flight for say, $250.

Why will a US competitor be able to advertise at a lower price? If they advertise at the same place they are required to follow the same rules. I.e. a US airline advertising in Canada will need to follow Canadian rules and a Canadian airline advertising in US can do so following US rules.

Yes, but US carriers can also advertise domestic fares from nearby US border points (e.g. Buffalo, Bellingham, etc.) where none of the international taxes and customs/immgration fees applicable to transborder flights apply.


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1308 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5139 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 1):

They want to make the airline advertising like gasoline or liquor in Canada. Whatever we see, the price includes all taxes

Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes. I also oppose withholding. Again - people need to feel the pain of that major check. What I think is ridiculous is that my $188 RT fare DEN-SEA next month as 99.17 in taxes.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL

People are gullible.



rcair1
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Yes, but US carriers can also advertise domestic fares from nearby US border points (e.g. Buffalo, Bellingham, etc.) where none of the international taxes and customs/immgration fees applicable to transborder flights apply.

So what.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes. I also oppose withholding. Again - people need to feel the pain of that major check. What I think is ridiculous is that my $188 RT fare DEN-SEA next month as 99.17 in taxes.

I oppose not being shown what I will be charged. If you want to make a statement about taxes then state x of the total price is taxes but show me the total first.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

The bold displayed prices should include:
The base price fare
Any and all Federal or Government Taxes, Security Fees, Airport fees
Any and all payment fees with the use of credit or debit cards
Any fuel surcharges

Adjacent to the price should be in print at least 1/4 as high as the base price but not smaller that 8 pts., any cabin or checked bag or related fees.


User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4973 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Why will a US competitor be able to advertise at a lower price? If they advertise at the same place they are required to follow the same rules

Well not according to the domestic airlines who have claimed that non-Canadian airlines may be exempt from the ruling (if the fares are listed on a foreign website, is it considered advertising in Canada?)

In the OP's link, the Minister of State for Transport is quoted implying that indeed, domestic airlines could be at a disadvantage. How do you suppose that might be?

On Friday, Fletcher defended the government's decision to wait and said it didn't want to put airlines at a competitive disadvantage



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineairvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 748 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4938 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 14):
On Friday, Fletcher defended the government's decision to wait and said it didn't want to put airlines at a competitive disadvantage

The government just has to frame the legislation that for flights departing Canadian airports, the full inclusive price has to be advertised. UA or DL advertising flights from Australia quote the inclusive fare.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):

Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes.

In Australia the amount of Fees/Taxes/Charges is required to be printed on the eTicket.


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2050 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4856 times:

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 1):
This bill has come up I think because of complaints from the usual crowd who doesn't bother to read the agreement prior to purchase.

It also makes it easier to hide higher taxes if they are bundled into the ticket price.

Fuel fees and payment surcharges should be banned entirely. Fuel and paying for your ticket are requirements, they are not optional.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes.

I agree, but we appear to be in the minority. People are lazy and just want to know the total, they don't care if they pay more in taxes than in fares.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

About freakin' time!

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 3):
I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).

Agreed, Flight Center advertised YVR-LGW for $99 plus $900 in fees, surcharges in taxes.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 5):
Canadian airlines are opposed to this ruling, stating that it will permit foreign carriers to compete by advertising base fares only.

Not according to this article ...

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-68636-4-.htm#68636

"Two of Canada's major airlines welcomed the new rules.

"We recognize that the travelling public have been asking for all-inclusive fare advertising, and we have been looking at this very closely," Air Canada said in a statement.

"Air Canada supports this initiative by the federal government if it meets consumer needs and have said publicly for years that we would happily comply with whatever advertising rules the government wishes to implement provided they apply equally to all carriers, domestic and foreign, against which we compete."

WestJet also supported the change.

"WestJet is in favour of all-in pricing to provide the travelling public with comparability among all airlines," said a statement from the airline."


Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?

If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes

I am the opposite, I despise added tax. The Germans have it down pat, you pay what you advertise and if you want to know how much tax your paying, simply look at the receipt ... simple, clean and smart.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 14):
Well not according to the domestic airlines who have claimed that non-Canadian airlines may be exempt from the ruling (if the fares are listed on a foreign website, is it considered advertising in Canada?)

You always play by the rules of where something is located. When advertising in a Canadian magazine you need to follow Canadian rules. When advertising in an Indian magazine you follow Indian rules. If for some reason you read the Indian magazine in Canada there is no requirement for the publisher to change the content to follow Canadian rules.

On the Internet it is a bit trickier as you borders are easier to cross but for the most part you need to follow the rules of the country where the company owning the web site is located.

So if a price is shown on a Canadian web site I do not understand how the non-Canadian airline will be allowed to show a non-inclusive price. It would be against how this kind of rules are practiced every where else.

But if you as a Canadian consumer compare Air Canada's web site with the price first shown on American Airlines web site then you need a lot of knowledge to figure out how to make apples to apples comparison. (Actually you need to click through to just before purchasing the ticket on AA to get the price they could have show from the beginning.)

Quoting threepoint (Reply 14):
In the OP's link, the Minister of State for Transport is quoted implying that indeed, domestic airlines could be at a disadvantage. How do you suppose that might be?

He is but I need to refer back to you for why that is.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Yes, but US carriers can also advertise domestic fares from nearby US border points (e.g. Buffalo, Bellingham, etc.) where none of the international taxes and customs/immgration fees applicable to transborder flights apply.

As someone with significant transborder travel experience, its not the tax/fee difference that makes that choice happen - because the difference is only about $30-$40. The real difference is simply that the airlines charge more for perception.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?

If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

True, I just booked Ryanair MAD - ACE for 29 euro incl tax. I print my own bourdingpass and have handluggage only. That is good for a 3 hour flight.

I am actually the type that prefers the basefare and all other fees to be seperated. I want to know to which agency my tax money goes, and how much the fuel surcharges are. Within europe you can come across very different amount of fuel charges on the same route.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 20):
Within europe you can come across very different amount of fuel charges on the same route.

Why do you care if the fare price is 10 and the fuel charge 90 or the fare 90 and the fuel charge 10?


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

I would love to see strict pricing rules in the U.S. so we could eliminate extremely dishonest pricing that the airlines have adopted on international flights. A base price of $290.60 for a total of $803.50. The airline $440 for an "international surcharge" under taxes and fees. Lets be honest and call the base price $730.60.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 20):
I just booked Ryanair MAD - ACE for 29 euro incl tax.


Absolutely. I just quickly found LTN-LPA - over 1,800 miles and 4h 25m block - for £15.99 one-way including taxes/charges although excluding the £6 card fee. Thus, £21.99 is all I would pay if I were to take the flight as I don't take checked luggage.

[Edited 2011-12-17 07:36:11]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3599 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

The market in Europe is completely different to the market in North America. Population is much larger and same with the number of airlines competing for business.


25 Viscount724 : But Europe's population is declining while North America's is growing. For example, Russia's population is dropping by 700,000 to 800,000 a year and
26 EDICHC : Why print fuel surcharges as a separate item? IMO there is no such thing as a fuel surcharge, fuel is used to fly the a/c from point A to point B so
27 Larshjort : Why not offer all flights for $1 + tax and fuel surcharge? I cannot see the point of advertising a fare if I am going to pay 15 times whats advertise
28 multimark : Of course this is more convenient for the Federal Government than the consumer. Now the consumer doesn't see how much the Feds are ripping them off by
29 WestJet747 : The purpose of this regulation is to change how airlines advertise fares. When you purchase the ticket you will still be able to see a breakdown of t
30 Post contains images ACDC8 : Our market and population have nothing to do with airlines here selling a few seats here and there for low prices all in ... they've done it before a
31 gemuser : This is very arguable! In fact the Australian government has decided its where the service is delivered. That is why DL & UA HAVE to follow Austr
32 YXD172 : Agreed! It was a nice surprise when I was in Europe to find that all tag prices, whether retail or service oriented, included all tax. The price you
33 Post contains links ACDC8 : And that is something so many people in this country just don't get. Its so simple, but they just don't get it. Here's another great one ... http://w
34 cmf : Which is why I said for the most part. However, I just went to united.com and ask for a SYD - SFO price and they did not include taxes and fees. Mayb
35 burnsie28 : Taxes would be impossible to put into advertisements because they are so variable. It all depends on what flight a person takes to where. Where they m
36 BlatantEcho : What a waste of legislation. I'm not Canadian, so maybe that is how you guys do things. Aren't there more pressing issues to worry about than people b
37 coolfish1103 : What really should be done is what does buying a plane ticket cover? The government should regulate this. There are way too many surcharges that has b
38 cmf : If they can show a price then they can show it including taxes and fees. Absolutely. And for good measure include one bag.
39 threepoint : There certainly are, but we legislated gun control, same-sex marriage and the abolition of the death penalty,years ago.[Edited 2011-12-18 09:11:57][E
40 yyz717 : I agree taxes should always be broken out and visible or apparent. We should see the tax component every time we book a ticket...it's a necessary rem
41 9252fly : In the past I've wondered why fuel surcharges exist? The only explanation that comes remotely close to being reasonable is that they are in place for
42 TCASAlert : I am all for government/airport enforced taxes being shown seperately. However I draw the line at "Fuel Surcharges" and "Passenger Service Charges" an
43 Post contains images WestJet747 : But wouldn't the fare they are advertising be a specific flight to a specific location? Therefore they certainly would be able to calculate the appli
44 MHG : Well, there´s another reason ... When airlines started showing/adding surcharges/taxes to the fares it was at a time when "the plan" was to reduce c
45 gemuser : Exactly and you won't always get the same fare as someone in Australia does. Gemuser
46 Post contains images cmf : So minimum work for United to enable it for Canada. But I'll stand by my original statement
47 YYZYYT : Think of it this way: most of the "outrageous" taxes and fees that are added pay for the infrastrucutre and operations of the system (airport fees, s
48 Viscount724 : Airlines don't file fares with IATA. You are probably thinking of ATPCO, the airline-owned company located near IAD airport that compiles and distrib
49 longhauler : It is no different than a lot of other industries. I recently bought a Ford Ranger for my nephew. On top of the advertised price was $1000.00+ for "fr
50 Post contains images WildcatYXU : That's true, however to do dummy bookings just to find out the full price is a waste of time. This time could be wasted some better way - such as pos
51 whiteguy : All of a sudden this is an Air Canada problem? Every airline is covered by this new legislation not just AC. All airlines in Canada currently adverti
52 WildcatYXU : Hey, take it easy. Who gave you the right to decide what other members can or can not write anyway? Now, to give you some explanation, I honestly don
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Restrictions For Airline Pilots With Migraines posted Sun Mar 7 2010 21:33:04 by jake712
Looking For 2 "Airline" Songs (Qatar & Emirates) posted Sat Feb 6 2010 00:00:15 by Airimages
DL Expands Pricing Options For Inflight WiFi posted Wed Jul 15 2009 14:35:43 by Acey559
Post-retirement Airfare Deals For Airline Pilots posted Mon Jun 15 2009 21:37:56 by Jawed
Good Source For Airline Fleet Information? posted Thu Apr 9 2009 10:18:22 by Sankaps
Great Airline Ads From The 80s Featuring EWR posted Fri Feb 20 2009 18:55:48 by Tommy767
Great Airline Ads From The 80s Featuring EWR posted Fri Feb 20 2009 18:55:13 by Tommy767
Passport Rules For Cabin Crew? posted Mon Jan 5 2009 13:34:14 by Robbie86
How Is This For Airline Advertising? posted Mon Nov 17 2008 08:09:50 by LH526
Req. Contact Info For Airline Route Expansion posted Fri Sep 5 2008 12:38:28 by Getdonnie