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UPDATE: Blocked Flights On Flightaware.com  
User currently offlinemichiganatc From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 144 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13702 times:

I was excited last August when I learned that the FAA moved in a direction to CANCEL the BARR program. This is a program which allows aircraft owners to have their aircraft removed from the flight tracking websites and programs. It keeps the general public away from tracking their airplanes. The FAA said they want to get rid of this program with the exception of those who can prove a "valid security concern".

For my own personal benefit I thought this was great! Mostly because I've been trying for 2 years now to track N707JT (Travolta's Boeing 707) so I could get some good pictures. Well, I guess I'm out of luck, because as of December 16, 2011 the FAA has updated the Federal Registry Notice and the DOT has approved FULL CONTINUATION of the BARR program.

So my hopes were up, now they're shot back down again. As the link below explains, we (the general public) are blocked from tracking aircraft participating in the BARR program indefinately  http://www.nbaa.org/ops/security/barr/

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1507 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13503 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Thread starter):
As the link below explains, we (the general public) are blocked from tracking aircraft participating in the BARR program indefinately

As it should be. The day I can search online to see where every car in the country is, I would be willing to give up the blocking program for aircraft.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13395 times:

If the plane is blocked at the FAA source, then too bad - but if it is blocked a the internet level then there are programs that can still track "blocked" tails. Send me a message if you want details.

The FAA has 2 types of blocking

1 at the FAA level

1 at the internet level and codes can allow you to see the planes.

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13289 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Thread starter):
The FAA said they want to get rid of this program with the exception of those who can prove a "valid security concern".

Okay, so when this aircraft is flown outside FAA control it is trackable,yes?



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13237 times:

It is very easy to get your plane on BARR and to track a blocked plane!!


"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlinemichiganatc From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12799 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 1):
As it should be. The day I can search online to see where every car in the country is, I would be willing to give up the blocking program for aircraft.

Comparing this to tracking all motor vehicles doesn't even make sense. That would require equiping every single vehicle with some sort of GPS tracking device. It would also require some sort of NEED, for safety reasons, to be tracked.

Where as ALL commercial and coorporate aircraft already "have" a transponder and the FAA already "has" tracking equipment (RADAR)...soon to be ADS-B. The safety need for the FAA to have this is to separate aircraft.

As far as the general public being allowed to take advantage of the FAA's flight tracking information and to track airplanes, there are many reasons and benefits:

- FBO's being allowed to track an inbound aircraft for planning & scheduling purposes
- ATC lost communication (NORDO) purposes to visually plot out course of aircraft to see what sectors they flew through.
- Airports to monitor ALL aircraft to collect landing fees from non-scheduled aircraft (These are occassionally NOT reported by the FBO). Some airports have to physically see the airplane on the field and have to document a tail number.
- Smaller airports plan runway closures for snow removal around projected inbound aircraft based on flight tracker systems. Airborn holding may result if an airport is unaware of an inbound (Yes, this happens, I work at a small airport).
- And people like me who need pictures!  
-


User currently offlinerolypolyman From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12584 times:

What we really need is for some innovative company to break SBS's monopoly (SBS is a passive radar system; there's no reason these can't be available for $100 a piece) and get the things networked.

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12347 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
Comparing this to tracking all motor vehicles doesn't even make sense. That would require equiping every single vehicle with some sort of GPS tracking device. It would also require some sort of NEED, for safety reasons, to be tracked.

What he's saying is that a personal aircraft is basically someones transportation just like your car is to you. If there were some safety need for cars to be tracked would you want your cars location information available to ANYONE with an internet connection? I know I sure wouldn't. Also the FAA has a need to be able to track personal planes for as you said safety reasons. Whats your NEED (not want BTW) to be able to track someones plane?

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
As far as the general public being allowed to take advantage of the FAA's flight tracking information and to track airplanes, there are many reasons and benefits:

- FBO's being allowed to track an inbound aircraft for planning & scheduling purposes
- ATC lost communication (NORDO) purposes to visually plot out course of aircraft to see what sectors they flew through.
- Airports to monitor ALL aircraft to collect landing fees from non-scheduled aircraft (These are occassionally NOT reported by the FBO). Some airports have to physically see the airplane on the field and have to document a tail number.
- Smaller airports plan runway closures for snow removal around projected inbound aircraft based on flight tracker systems. Airborn holding may result if an airport is unaware of an inbound (Yes, this happens, I work at a small airport).

All these companies with legimate needs can be given access to flight tracking by the FAA. They of course would have to register to be part of a program justifying their need.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- And people like me who need pictures!

correction people like you who WANT pictures.

Lets allow people to track someone using their cellphone. Most cellphones have GPS because there is a need to be able to locate a 911 call. So why not just let people track everybody the technology is there? We can start with your cell phone, perhaps. I have a need to take pictures of self-serving people like you.

[Edited 2011-12-17 14:15:03]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12222 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Thread starter):
As the link below explains, we (the general public) are blocked from tracking aircraft participating in the BARR program indefinately

Good. 'Bout time someone came to their senses.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
It would also require some sort of NEED, for safety reasons, to be tracked.

Aircraft are tracked for safety reasons. But the general public does not need to track them for safety reasons or any other reason. People who need to know can know, and people who don't (you and me) shouldn't be able to track anything if the owner so chooses.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- FBO's being allowed to track an inbound aircraft for planning & scheduling purposes

They ways of getting in touch.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- ATC lost communication (NORDO) purposes to visually plot out course of aircraft to see what sectors they flew through.

When did ATC become "the general public"?

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
Some airports have to physically see the airplane on the field and have to document a tail number.

I've never physically seen a plane on FlightAware and I know you haven't either.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
Smaller airports plan runway closures for snow removal around projected inbound aircraft based on flight tracker systems. Airborn holding may result if an airport is unaware of an inbound (Yes, this happens, I work at a small airport).

Airports are not the general public.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1507 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12054 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
Comparing this to tracking all motor vehicles doesn't even make sense. That would require equiping every single vehicle with some sort of GPS tracking device. It would also require some sort of NEED, for safety reasons, to be tracked.

There is no need for the general public to track an airplane either. So, either everyone can track cars, planes, trains and boats, or they can track none. Pick your poison. I'm going for the non-police state.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
FBO's being allowed to track an inbound aircraft for planning & scheduling purposes

It's called a radio. The only thing an FBO needs to know is when a plane is 10-15 minutes out, at best, and radio's have that kind of range these days.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
Airports to monitor ALL aircraft to collect landing fees from non-scheduled aircraft (These are occassionally NOT reported by the FBO). Some airports have to physically see the airplane on the field and have to document a tail number.

Airports that collect a landing fee are most always large, commercial airports, which have a control tower than can track movements. You do realize that not every plane shows up on flightaware and the like. In fact, very few VFR aircraft end up on there. But again, that would assume you know that flight plans are not required in the United States. Oh the humanity!!!

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
Smaller airports plan runway closures for snow removal around projected inbound aircraft based on flight tracker systems. Airborn holding may result if an airport is unaware of an inbound (Yes, this happens, I work at a small airport).

Smaller airports? Please, you mean airports that have commercial service. This country has nearly 18,000 landing facilities. The number of them which have snow removal capability 24/7 is extremely low, and those that do are again, ones with a control tower.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11161 times:

It only made sense to restore BARR because after ALL the work and wasted time with this program being questioned in the House/ Senate and them changing the rules. The D-Heads figured out a way to just fly as DotCom by filing on fltplan.com.

It's ok... just like someone said up top. When hell freezes over and NexGen is fully implemented. People will just get a network of ADS-B Radars going and then what are the rich pricks gonna do? Fly around without their Transponders on...  


User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10901 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

In August - for about 4 days, nothing was blocked, from a photography standpoint (I was in Las Vegas at the time) it was pretty sweet.

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10274 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
then what are the rich pricks gonna do?

Those rich pricks are again going to have their privacy invaded because you think you have a right to do so.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10075 times:

I would suggest that there may be sound privacy, political, security and business reasons, which we do not have to discuss the details why here, to not allow a flight, private or commercial, to be on the public areas of Flightaware.com and the ability for the operator to 'opt out', even in a blanket policy.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21512 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9991 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
It would also require some sort of NEED, for safety reasons, to be tracked.

Okay, here's a need: what if your car was used in a crime and the police needed to track it? Would make law enforcement's job a lot easier, and would help them ensure public safety by getting criminals off the streets faster. The solution? Make sure every car is equipped with a transmitter. And then cars can be tracked (don't think that this is too far off - the technology already exists, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes cost-effective; at that point, there will be a civil liberties fight).

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- FBO's being allowed to track an inbound aircraft for planning & scheduling purposes

FBOs are a legitimate business, and they can get access.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- ATC lost communication (NORDO) purposes to visually plot out course of aircraft to see what sectors they flew through.

You're not saying that when ATC loses communication with an aircraft, they resort to Flightaware to see where it is and where it's been, right? Because they have plenty of other stuff that works better.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- Airports to monitor ALL aircraft to collect landing fees from non-scheduled aircraft (These are occassionally NOT reported by the FBO). Some airports have to physically see the airplane on the field and have to document a tail number.

If they need to physically see the airplane on the field, a flight tracker isn't going to help them one bit.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- Smaller airports plan runway closures for snow removal around projected inbound aircraft based on flight tracker systems. Airborn holding may result if an airport is unaware of an inbound (Yes, this happens, I work at a small airport).

Again, an airport is a legitimate business, and they can get access if they need it.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- And people like me who need pictures!

You don't need pictures. It would be nice if you could get them, but you don't need them.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDrewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9703 times:

I was appalled when this programme was disbanded by bureaucrats and am glad it has been reinstated by congress. There are legitimate reasons to block flights from public tracking which have been properly argued above. Besides, the most reliable flight tracker is an airband radio. Always has been, always will be. Those who rely on internet flight tracking miss out big.

User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8740 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
The safety need for the FAA to have this is to separate aircraft.

FAA yes. General public, no.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- FBO's being allowed to track an inbound aircraft for planning & scheduling purposes

That's why we make "in range" calls. Sometimes we do through AFIS or flight phone to really piss you guys off.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- ATC lost communication (NORDO) purposes to visually plot out course of aircraft to see what sectors they flew through.

Has nothing to do with Flightaware.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- Airports to monitor ALL aircraft to collect landing fees from non-scheduled aircraft (These are occassionally NOT reported by the FBO). Some airports have to physically see the airplane on the field and have to document a tail number.

Get a better tracking system. I have yet to go to an airport that charged fees and didn't get theirs one way or another.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- Smaller airports plan runway closures for snow removal around projected inbound aircraft based on flight tracker systems. Airborn holding may result if an airport is unaware of an inbound (Yes, this happens, I work at a small airport).

Manure

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 5):
- And people like me who need pictures!

Pictures of what? Airplanes? Movie stars scratching their butt while waiting for bags? Business execs picking their nose waiting on limos? Get a life man....

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
The D-Heads figured out a way to just fly as DotCom by filing on fltplan.com.

Those "d-heads" keep a lot of us employed, and are no less entitled to their privacy than you are. I made a nice living flying them around until Madoff and the economy wiped many out. Now, we live check to check rather than being able to plan ahead. We also get to choose between retirement and paying for our son's college.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
It's ok... just like someone said up top. When hell freezes over and NexGen is fully implemented. People will just get a network of ADS-B Radars going and then what are the rich pricks gonna do? Fly around without their Transponders on...

You really think people are gonna get their own radars? We pilots are a crafty bunch. If we don't want you to know who's on the airplane, you won't know.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8647 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 16):
Now, we live check to check rather than being able to plan ahead. We also get to choose between retirement and paying for our son's college.

Of course in the future they may be less likely to fly privately since the public has decided it was evil. Then again, they probably can't afford not to, something the general public does not understand.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2300 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6984 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
And then cars can be tracked (don't think that this is too far off - the technology already exists, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes cost-effective; at that point, there will be a civil liberties fight).

Not to hijack threads, but a technical detail: There are already (newly-built) cars that have either (or both) a GPS navigation system with a cell phone SIM card inside, or the car itself is equipped with one. Then you can track cars. Presto. In cities it's much more precise as in the countryside, though.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 16):
Get a life man....

Sums up this entire thread...and many more like it on Anet.

You would be nuts to assuming ATC falls back to something such as flightaware for controlling aircraft, first and foremost they can't. It's not a certified piece of equipment (every piece of NAS equipment has to meet certification requirements and certified on a periodic basis).

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
It's ok... just like someone said up top. When hell freezes over and NexGen is fully implemented. People will just get a network of ADS-B Radars going and then what are the rich pricks gonna do? Fly around without their Transponders on...

Well they are going to have too after the NGVS gets implemented, no more liveatc...lol


seriously; some enthusiasts take this way too far...



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlinejcos15 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

Besides government and military aircraft, what planes truly need to be "hidden?". If a few more enthusiasts found out Travolta's 707 was going to be somewhere and they simply wanted to see it, what's wrong with that? I would think QANTAS would invite that advertising exposure  .

And michiganatc, having a life is having passion. Don't give up yours and keep photographing those magnificent machines we all are passionate about!


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21512 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5650 times:

Quoting jcos15 (Reply 20):
Besides government and military aircraft, what planes truly need to be "hidden?".

Anyone who wants theirs to be. It's a privacy thing.

Quoting jcos15 (Reply 20):
If a few more enthusiasts found out Travolta's 707 was going to be somewhere and they simply wanted to see it, what's wrong with that?

It's not about the airplanes, it's about the people on them. You might only want a look at the airplane, and that's fine, but there are others who would want to harass the passengers.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 742 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):

OnStar comes to mind as an example of a system that has been around for at least a few years.

Quoting jcos15 (Reply 20):

If I were Travolta, I'd definitely prefer NOT to be tracked. Less chance of paparazzi harrassment. Further, I speculate that CEOs and other executives on corporate jets would much prefer to stay under the radar (so to speak) so as not to give competitors an advantage.

EDIT: grammar. Mir beat me to the above too.  Smile

[Edited 2011-12-18 07:18:51]


Jack @ AUS
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5435 times:

Quoting jcos15 (Reply 20):
Besides government and military aircraft, what planes truly need to be "hidden?".

You'd be surprised. But your question is a nonstarter anyway since need to be hidden is irrelevant. It is a question of wanting to be hidden, and if they wish to be hidden, they should be able to be hidden. There is simply no sane argument why aircraft owners shouldn't be afforded privacy like anyone else.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinejcos15 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Quoting Western727 (Reply 22):
Quoting Mir (Reply 21):

1. We don't know who's on the planes (by law), only who owns them.

2. Airports have the tightest security of almost any public facility, so the threat potential is extremely low and I would guess most FBO's don't allow papparrazi onto the tarmacs.

3. If I can use the logic from other comments in this thread, if FlightAware is how you find out about a competing company "making a move", then you probably have bigger problems at your company than what your competitors are doing.

4. If taxes are paid on property such as a car or house, that property's ownership is a matter of public record. Why should airplanes be excluded?

Privacy is about the person, not their property.


25 Western727 : Not sure I agree on the paparazzi thing. Who's stopping them from buzzing just outside the airport perimeter? Furthermore, in certain industries, it'
26 Post contains images BMI727 : That doesn't help much in a lot of cases. Yeah, because no papparazi ever got themselves a telephoto lens. And it isn't always photography either. Th
27 Mir : If 707JT shows up somewhere, you pretty much know who's on it. And there are plenty of other aircraft you could say that about. It's actually very ea
28 DiamondFlyer : Sure, the 400 or so airports that are served commercially. Again, I say there are nearly 18,000 landing facilities in our country. A vast majority of
29 Post contains images jcos15 : Privacy and security is not absolute, of course if someone wants to do something badly enough (good or bad), they will. But, contrary to what the med
30 tb727 : I thought it was pretty smart how they came up with that. I used to fly blocked flights, the flights are still blocked for good reason as are many of
31 bond007 : Not every aircraft can be tracked, only those on flight plans, or if using ADS-B. The comparison with cars is valid if we had access to all toll syst
32 Mir : It's not a need for some and not for others. If anyone at all thinks they have a need, they can get their airplane blocked. If some people don't care
33 ltbewr : Some good reasons to block public access to flight info of private and some commercial aircraft.: A number of years ago, I worked on a matter involvin
34 NASCARAirforce : Most cars built after a certain year already do - GM has it, its called Onstar. As much as I would like to be able to track all the private jets comi
35 BMI727 : ...so people might as well make it easier for them. There is no defense for the invasion of privacy in such a manner. It isn't your privacy, so it is
36 DashTrash : You're exactly right. I've watched 50 or so cars full of paparazzi chase a group of passengers I was flying once. I was surprised they weren't on the
37 fuelfool : I guess the FBO I worked for was too cheap. I have no interest in taking pictures or knowing where a particular plane may be. It was very annoying to
38 Post contains links BP1 : You can trick www.flightwise.com to show planes blocked at the internet level (send me a private message if you want to learn) or Just use Passur like
39 Post contains links BP1 : Everything you wanted to know about the BARR program. http://www.nbaa.org/ops/security/barr/faq/security-concern-faa.php A. 2 Types of blocking 1. FAA
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