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CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?  
User currently offlineWALmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 156 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8858 times:

According to my search, this topic has not been discussed in the near-past.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/travel...ered-airports/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

How about a limit? $42 subsidy per passenger sounds acceptable, but $3000+ is extreme. Set up a max per passenger subsidy; anything beyond that is up to local airports if they feel service is essential.


In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
151 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8738 times:

One, should the subsidy exceed the pro-rate fare for the subsidized segment that the passenger pays? I think not.
Two, is the 90 mile minimum radius from a medium and large hub enough distance to be a significant deterrent against using ground transportation? I've heard of stories where people are willing to drive hours to save $400+ per passenger on air fare when they travel on WN.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8666 times:

Quoting WALmsp (Thread starter):
How about a limit?

No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8594 times:

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 1):
Two, is the 90 mile minimum radius from a medium and large hub enough distance to be a significant deterrent against using ground transportation?

Except what I don't understand is that Athens (AHN) is in that list of airports and it is only 58nm from ATL and 84 miles via car. So HOW does that get in the list?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.

I go back and forth on it. I can't decide.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8531 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.

Not everyone lives in NYC, not everyone works on Wall street and enjoys a choice of 3 airport for vacation trip.
Market may decide that INL needs no service - but same market would decide beef should be $20/pound and toilet paper should be $5/roll to cover inconvenience of those actually producing the goods and having limited access to the rest of the world.
Saying "everyone is free to move" is true, if one particular person is considered - but may become a huge issue if everyone in the country choose to move to one of 10 major cities. Someone must live in small towns all over the country to mine coal, grow corn, cotton etc. to support those big cities.
There need to be a balance somewhere - neither completely closing EAS nor subsidizing everyone is a good idea. Per-pax cap (edit - probably cap depending on driving distance to a bigger airport) may actually work.

[Edited 2011-12-17 15:43:31]

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8488 times:

Quoting kalvado (Reply 4):
Not everyone lives in NYC, not everyone works on Wall street and enjoys a choice of 3 airport for vacation trip.

And not everyone has the privilege of paying incredible New York prices either. You get a set of advantages and disadvantages either way.

Quoting kalvado (Reply 4):
Someone must live in small towns all over the country to mine coal, grow corn, cotton etc. to support those big cities.

And people will, because it will be a net positive for them. And they can travel by either subsidizing flights themselves, being a big enough market to support flights, or driving to larger airports. EAS is unnecessary and wasteful.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1083 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8479 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.

I generally try to stay away from discussions like this, But... BINGO! Your exactly right BMI727...

I'm not saying that we should deny critical medical services from hard to reach communities... But, If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility that can support your Tree hugging lifestyle!  



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineintsim From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8250 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
I'm not saying that we should deny critical medical services from hard to reach communities... But, If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility that can support your Tree hugging lifestyle!

At least a few EAS cities in my state do not have many trees. I spoke with a 1900 pilot commuting to BIL in SLC a month ago. She said most passengers were business people coming into these communities. As mentioned above Oil, Coal, Ag, not just people living as one in nature.


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8122 times:
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Even though I live off a major highway in the Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington DC Megalopolis, I still have to travel an hour and a half to the nearest airport with commerical service (unless you want to count TTN with Streamline Air which goes to Bedford, MA near Boston (no connection opportunities there) ). So now I pay city prices for food and clothes. Some of the highest taxes (property,etc) in the country and I still have to drive just as far as some of the EAS stations would have to if they didn't have EAS. EAS needs at a minimum stricter rules to serve communities that truly need EAS.

Examples of EAS that need to be cut
Athens, GA only 1 1/2 hours to Atlanta $1M of subsidies
Decatur, IL only 1 hour from Springfield, IL $3M of subsidies


Hagerstown, MD 1:30 to Harrisburg, PA 1:30-1:45 to Baltimore $1.2M in subsidies
Thief River Falls, MN 1:30 to Grand Forks, ND $1.2M in subsidies
Johnstown, PA 1:30 to Pittsburgh, PA $1.6M
Lancaster, PA 1 hr to Harrisburg, PA 1:30 to Philadelphia, PA 1:45 to BWI $1.3M
Hibbing/Chisholm, MN 1:30 to Duluth, MN $2.9M
El Centro, CA 1 hr to Yuma, AZ $1.8M


Cresent City, CA 1:30 to Eureka, CA $1.7M
Jonesboro, AR 1:15-1:30 to Memphis, TN $836K
Muscle Shoals, AL 1:15 to Huntsville, AL $2.5M

[Edited 2011-12-17 21:38:32]


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User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

Decatur is actually only 30 minutes to Springfield... at least how I drive...


xx
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7918 times:
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Actually google maps says 47 minutes I believe I was trying to be overly fair


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6074 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7639 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 8):
Cresent City, CA 1:30 to Eureka, CA $1.7M

EAS only covers CEC-SFO. ACV-CEC (and CEC-ACV in the afternoon) is a tag-on, but it is not subsidized.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1182 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7532 times:
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You can't only think about the location of a current EAS airport in relationship to the next major airport, such as the distance from Hibbing to Duluth. You also need to factor in the towns that are further away such as Ely (which is a tourist and forestry town), Babbit (which is coming back as a strong mining town), etc, and that currently use Hibbing as their airport. I do agree however that the government should apply a mathematical model which may include the possibility of building new super regional airports located so as to service communities within 120 minutes (or 90 minutes if in areas subject to bad winter weather) driving time. Small communities do have a role in the overall economy of the country and there are jobs such as mining, forestry and agriculture that can't exactly be done in midtown Manhattan. Those activities then require communities to support them: equipment dealers, mechanics, trucking terminals, power distribution, cable repairment, etc etc and then all the ancillary businesses needed to support a population: stores, etc.

This could entail closing some airports and building a mathematically calculated new airport location able to service a sphere around it.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1917 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6976 times:

The entire premise of the program is ridiculous, the more the government gets involved, the higher our prices go and the worse the service is.

Also: this is one of the more hilarious things I've read on a.net in 10 years. Touche.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlinepackcheer From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6872 times:

First, I agree that EAS needs to be seriously reconsidered.

But for all of you quoting Athens as less than 90 miles to ATL...

Have any of you seriously tried to drive that? It took me an hour and ten minutes to get to ATL from Georgia Tech in the middle of the afternoon. Forget about running into any significant rush hour traffic.

Athens to ATL (the airport) can easily be a 2 hour drive.



Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6854 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
I'm not saying that we should deny critical medical services from hard to reach communities... But, If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility that can support your Tree hugging lifestyle!  

        

I have lived in three dense metro areas over 4 million in population and two rural areas less than 20,000 in population. There are pro's and con's of living in both. Subsidies like EAS, rural broadband internet, and so forth smack of trying to have your cake and eat it too. I don't believe your entitled to have the best of both worlds at the expense of everyone else.


User currently offlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Does Alaska have EAS? I watch that "Flying Alaska" show and there is no talk about the flights being EAS and yet there appears to be enough demand to keep this small airline in operation. And if ever there was a place that needs ESSENTIAL air service - it was would Alaska - where in most towns there are no other transportation options.

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6791 times:

Far too much of the EAS is about politics, not economics, about appeasing certain powerful interests nationally and in the districts. There are some location that due to poor or no roads, distance, weather/climate, variable demand, that can justify the EAS. If it is more about access to people from access to mail, packages, access to health care, then a reaonable subsidy is acceptable. If the subsidy is more for a corporate interest, that is wrong and the companies involved should pay the necessary fare or pay the subsidy. Perhaps what is needed is a stronger non-partisan commission who will make the EAS decisions based on reasonale economic and justifiable other reasons.

User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1573 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6763 times:

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 16):
Does Alaska have EAS? I watch that "Flying Alaska" show and there is no talk about the flights being EAS and yet there appears to be enough demand to keep this small airline in operation.

Alaska is all EAS. Basically everything is EAS up there, which, is probably one that needs to stay how it is.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21701 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

Quoting packcheer (Reply 14):
Athens to ATL (the airport) can easily be a 2 hour drive.

Which is not unreasonable, especially when you consider what's at the other end. You'd probably save time driving to ATL vs. waiting for a flight from AHN to ATL and then waiting for the onward connection. Athens should be able to support service on its own anyway, what with the university there and all the stuff that goes with it.

I can understand EAS for certain communities (such as International Falls) which are truly in the middle of nowhere, but if you're two hours or less from an airport that can sustain service on its own, I can't justify the expense in the current financial situation.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

How did many of these cities that get EAS exist before air travel?

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6206 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):
Alaska is all EAS. Basically everything is EAS up there, which, is probably one that needs to stay how it is

Not really. They can either pick up the bill themselves or move elsewhere.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 20):
How did many of these cities that get EAS exist before air travel?

In the regulated era, fares were much higher and there was little real competition. Carriers could do milk runs that would stop at many small towns and only pick up a few people at each airport.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):

Not really. They can either pick up the bill themselves or move elsewhere.

Agreed, but not going to happen. Alaskan's love their government pork more than most.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6160 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Agreed, but not going to happen. Alaskan's love their government pork more than most.

Maybe if they all chipped in their reverse income tax they wouldn't need our money.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1300 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

This isn't the first time I'm asking this question, and I will ask it again: why can't EAS be replaced with subsidies to Greyhound?

Contrary to popular belief, Greyhound service has really improved in recent years (particularly in the Northeast, but the improvements are spreading throughout the country). They're doing well in spite of the economy, have consistently reasonable fares, and provide access to city centers (instead of, or in some cases IN ADDITION TO, airports which are usually located several miles outside of a city).

Looking at a Google map and just going by what "looks" big, here's a route that could work in regards to the CNN article: http://g.co/maps/6kpge It begins from the Greyhound station in Minneapolis, goes to the existing Greyhound stop in Duluth, and continues through Chisholm and finally International Falls. GLI could even contract the driving out to Jefferson Lines (one of their contractor carriers in the region). MSP to DLH currently has 4 departures on a random Thursday, with all of them being operated by JL (one of them starts as GLI but requires a transfer in Eau Claire to a JL operator). Greyhound could easily run one or two buses a day on their own metal all the way to International Falls. If they were to do this, it could even be extended to Winnipeg with a driver swap in INL to Greyhound Canada.

From what I can tell, Greyhound could already afford to do this on their own. Firstgroup plc (FGP.L) closed on Friday 90 cents down -- at $323.60. That's higher than most of the major airlines in America combined. They would also be able to do this for a much lower cost than air carriers, as buses are generally cheaper to operate. They also hold a lot more people than the planes that go to these EAS cities. The majority of the Greyhound fleet can carry at least 50 passengers, which could pick up/drop off passengers over multiple stops on the way to a major city. This certainly works better between 34 seats that travel between two cities regardless of them being full. If the government wants to contribute to Greyhound to operate these routes, I'm sure that would only make things better (increased frequency or even getting more buses upgraded).

A lot of people say that buses are nasty and they will only fly. I just fail to understand how a bus, with a cabin that is two full inches wider than a CRJ-200, seats that offer greater legroom and recline, a lavatory you can actually fit inside, overhead bins that can hold normal-sized luggage, and an increasing number of buses with power outlets and free wi-fi, just HOW is this worse than a Saab or a Cessna? The worst thing that could possibly happen is a bus gets subbed with a MC-9/12 (these older buses do a lot better than most in the snow -- although I think only GLC has these now), and you can bet the Saab won't be flying at this point!

Is it the other passengers? They, like you, just want to get where they need to go. Just how many people in these areas (EAS regions) do you dislike having onboard your Delta Connection flight? THESE will be your fellow Greyhound passengers. Have a fear of buses? Think of it as a plane without wings, but has bigger windows and is generally nicer.

Greyhound's website has a lot more information. Check it out!

~~~

I noticed someone further up in the thread mention an EAS city being 2 hours from Atlanta. I'm 20 years old. If I can drive from New York to ROC (a 6 to 7+ hour drive depending on traffic) with a single 5-minute stop for gas... why can't one drive for two hours (including sitting in traffic for 30 minutes)?! Stop if you must, if you feel it's too much, but why should the rest of the country have to pay for that? This, too, is a PERFECT example of where Greyhound service would work. They could even make an additional stop at the ATL airport, AND you could leave your car at home.

Like others have said, cities within 2 or 3 hours of non-EAS airports (well, airports that classify between basic non-EAS cities and up to and including major hubs), that can be driven. I think up to 6 hours away from a major city or hub should get Greyhound service (and perhaps with stops in those smaller cities I just mentioned). More than 6 hours away? Then you're truly in BFE (and I don't mean Germany) and deserve your Biscoff cookie.

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
25 Kaphias : And until you've actually lived here, all your talk is meaningless. Go visit these rural communities, live there for a couple months, study their his
26 usxguy : EAS in Alaska is quite efficient... most bids are for $15k-$250k, you don't get the $3 million subsidies up here that you see in places in 'America'.
27 DiamondFlyer : No I have not. In terms of number of destinations served, there are a heck of a lot more places served in Alaska than anywhere else. I really don't k
28 2175301 : Several years ago when this was being discussed I looked at all the locations being served and came to the conclusion that about 75% of them should be
29 Post contains images Cubsrule : And it's not just AHN (which is an example everyone uses). BRD and FOD are just a couple of hours from MSP. TBN and COU (now off subsidy) are a simil
30 BMI727 : What is so special about those places and people that they should be allowed to use our money for their travel? Especially when they get to bank some
31 Cubsrule : Here's the cynical answer: rural America always has been subsidized and likely always will be subsidized. EAS is the least bad subsidy (much better t
32 RWA380 : EAS just means you get air service, not that your going to get a bargain rate. These communities population get the luck of infrequent, high priced ai
33 Goldenshield : There are already scheduled shuttle services that do just that. My city has 3(!) such services that do just that, to major airports in two cities. Of
34 Post contains images KingFriday013 : If you read through my somewhat-too-long post you'll see I completely agree with you. I only suggested Greyhound because they exist all over the coun
35 DesertAir : It seems to me that some rural areas are in absolute need of EAS. But it seems like this is also a Pork Barrel program used by some politicians. Stock
36 RWA380 : The one thing I like about Central Oregon Breeze is they operate from the airport terminals in RDM & PDX, which makes catching flights very easy.
37 atrude777 : Speaking of times...that's the very reason. Planes fly faster then Greyhound drives. If you add the multiple pick up stops you mentioned, like we did
38 Cubsrule : I think you may have hit on part of the problem - buses are big, especially nice buses. A lot of EAS markets see 40 or 50 passengers per day on a goo
39 atrude777 : Exactly, which was part of my post above. Keep increasing the bus stops...you just add supporting points for why EAS is around, to reduce time spent
40 rampart : What's so special about suburban Chicago or Washington or Atlanta that they get interstate highway beltways? They use my money for their highways. Lo
41 KingFriday013 : Google Maps says Stockton Metropolitan to SMF is an hour and 14 minutes. Why does such a short distance have to have air service? If it were up to me
42 DeltaMD90 : I really don't get it, even if someone has to drive 4 hours to the nearest airport, is that too much to ask? 4 hours in a car? Really? First world pro
43 Post contains images KingFriday013 : That's totally driveable. Some days I drive 2 hours (due to traffic) just to get to school. Actually, Greyhound already does that route and picks peo
44 Cubsrule : So we're driving empty buses rather than flying empty planes. Why is that superior? In your worldview, it's a waste of money either way.
45 BMI727 : These places all have airports, obviously. EAS is like me demanding that the government buy me a car since I have to drive to school or work. If a pa
46 Post contains images KingFriday013 : You said EAS gets 40 or 50 seats filled on a good day. I've heard of some EAS routes that barely get that many seats filled in a week. More stops mea
47 Cubsrule : Please let me know what EAS routes see ERJs and have fewer than 25 passengers per day. Great. So no need for a subsidy then, right? Is security reall
48 atrude777 : Wasn't complaining, absolutely it's drivable I do it all the time when I am not flying onward out of STL. It is too long. By car on our own time we c
49 BMI727 : That would be the idea. Don't some of the EAS carriers use FBO's at large airports which don't have typical security anyway?
50 Post contains images CODCAIAH : Oh jeez. First of all, EAS spending is a drop in the bucket in relation to the rest of federal spending. So people need to turn down the hysterical co
51 atrude777 : Ya it can be. That's 4 hours one way, 8 hours round trip. That can really take a toll on ya. Why drive four hours one way to take a 2 hour flight? BN
52 atrude777 : Exactly, if EAS goes away, then Amtrak needs to go away. Both are public transportation provided and funded by the government. Alex
53 Cubsrule : Yes, which tends to hurt the value of the service. But many EAS airports do have TSA (e.g. the 9L cities in West Virginia, the 9K cities in the midwe
54 BMI727 : So? EAS is low hanging fruit in the budget. You know, a billion here, a billion there, and soon you're talking about real money. (A phrase ironically
55 BMI727 : Would they if the flights weren't subsidized?
56 Cubsrule : Well, people still fly to COU and MHK, do they not?
57 Post contains links KingFriday013 : ERJ was just an aircraft that came to mind. Check out this report from this past September: http://reason.org/files/essential_ai...service_coach_bus_
58 Cubsrule : The point you are missing is that EAS is not a homogenous program. A subsidy of hundreds of dollars or a thousand dollars per passenger on a 5 PDEW r
59 KingFriday013 : I understand what you are saying. Still, a 40% average is not good enough -- there aren't enough of the $20-30 per pax routes -- actually I mean ther
60 atrude777 : MWA-STL right now is 100 dollars r/t, but again hardly if anyone is ever flying JUST to head to STL, it's an added cost to the flight that's booked o
61 Flighty : They should re-structure EAS to incentivize social benefit (meaning, passenger traffic). It is nuts to subsidize flights nobody is using or enjoying.
62 CODCAIAH : Get real. EAS spending for FY 2012 is $193 million. And this: "According to the Department of Transportation, $50 million of the fund's $193 million
63 Kaphias : No. In your world of roads, your equivalent of Alaska without EAS would be, say, everyone in your community having a house, a car, and a driveway. Th
64 Post contains images KingFriday013 : That's why I said the MWA-STL portion (assuming you were continuing somewhere else). That's $50 each way; that's not enough for me to complain. How l
65 Post contains images CODCAIAH : On your dime? Your profile says you're between 16 and 20. Do you even pay income tax yet? Your logic with regard to federal spending and wealth trans
66 CODCAIAH : Example? Which EAS routes don't have any pax?
67 BMI727 : I never said EAS is the only thing that should be cut, just one thing that should be cut. It shouldn't be a waste of time. Ending EAS for good should
68 Post contains images KingFriday013 : I supported having EAS in Alaska just because of the conditions there... but you raise a very good point. I am on the fence (at least for Alaska. The
69 rampart : No, I said stagecoach, little s, not a company, as in a couple horses pulling a carriage. Cheaper than a bus. Would take longer. But since the bandwa
70 KingFriday013 : Have you been on Greyhound bus lately? If not, take a trip somewhere. You'll be pleasantly surprised how many of the buses are newer and more modern
71 atrude777 : 15 min drive, need to be there about 20 min before departure...prob 30-40min-ish. I have, and always did when we did not have service to STL. Since I
72 BMI727 : If the service is as necessary and useful as you make it out to be, then the market should have no problems supporting the service without subsidies.
73 atrude777 : Oddly enough, I think the market can do it on its own without the needed money. Our route is VERY close to reaching 10,000 enplanements in a year, wh
74 BMI727 : But you aren't paying full price. You're ticket isn't really $50 the way a brand new top of the line smartphone isn't really $100. If people really l
75 atrude777 : And the 99 one way tickets people were paying JFK-LAX isn't really full price either. So not exactly a valid argument there either to be honest. Airl
76 BMI727 : But that's coming out of the airline's wallet, not the government's. If a private company wants to offer their product below cost that's their proble
77 Post contains links Kaphias : ...Which in Alaska means walking, or going by dog sled in the winter. You clearly don't understand. What great view? Just have a look: http://www.lia
78 Mir : That's a pretty sensible number (I might cut it down to 120 if the airport in question isn't a major one, or if there are weather considerations that
79 BMI727 : Guess they'd better pay for the flights or get their snowshoes out then. So let's get this straight: In rural Alaska people live in crappy little vil
80 Pyrex : Not to mention that a lot of the people you see on that show living in the middle of nowhere and having a pizza delivered by plane are native Alaskan
81 Post contains links and images KingFriday013 : I appreciate your argument. You do have the service. But if the government keeps losing money, it may change. Just keep that in mind. By going with a
82 BMI727 : Amtrak doesn't really own any of the infrastructure do they? Or would it? Without some of the federal money as a crutch, maybe some of these airlines
83 atrude777 : You have known me for how long? I go to a Public, Four Year University, Southern Illinois University, nothing Private about it at all. It's all publi
84 Burkhard : I think such things should be decided locally and paid for locally. As example, a rural side which pays subsidies for tourists who come in, 50$ per he
85 Post contains images KingFriday013 : I don't know; I guess they do lease/rent a lot of the track space from other companies. Could be easier to dismantle Amtrak than I thought. But I'd r
86 atrude777 : Ya, NONE of them live in my hometown. We all meet up AT the destination from our own respective cities. But I do not travel with anyone from my homet
87 BMI727 : Not with Saabs anyway. Some lean carrier with smaller planes might have better luck.
88 Cubsrule : Here's the problem with that: the EAS success stories - places like COU and MHK - started with larger aircraft, jets in the case of MHK. Larger aircr
89 FlyPNS1 : As you pointed out, these people lived there for thousands of years without air service. Why do they all of the sudden need air service? And frankly,
90 Goldenshield : But first, you need the passengers. They don't just show up because it's a bigger airplane. More than likely, those cities were just a stopover, and
91 Cubsrule : Sometimes, like in COU, they do. It also helps that operators of larger aircraft tend to be more reliable.
92 enilria : So to me, EAS should exist only in Alaska or whereever else we have islands or similarly unreachable areas that have an essential need for air servic
93 FlyPNS1 : But in your example, shouldn't the companies that run the mackerel fishing business pay for the air service for their employees? Should the U.S. gove
94 Coronado : I suppose the next time the state of Michigan puts out a construction bid to repair an old bridge that is crumbling on I75, the EAS bashers will say t
95 KingFriday013 : I bet a Cessna 402 would stand a chance; maybe even a Beech, but that's pushing it. I'm not for abolishing it completely. Like I said in my first pos
96 LFutia : Why not fly out of Paducah, KY and save yourself the driving to STL? Granted their only destination is ORD but from there you have the world to conne
97 planespotting : Funny that this thread has turned into a bitch-fest for anyone who looked up an EAS route of less than two hours driving time and started complaining
98 atrude777 : 1. I am pretty much only flying Southwest or Delta out of STL, so flying out of PAH won't put me on those carriers. 2. I AM saving myself the drive t
99 Post contains images intsim : In business you don't make it if you are losing money, the government should be no different. I agree EAS needs to be reworked. In Alaska they can mak
100 Post contains images KingFriday013 : Does every single EAS city really give back so much to the economy? EAS should at least be worth it. In 2009, PAH was boarding 65 passengers a day (a
101 Goldenshield : Well, yes, and no. When planes start doing 16+ hops a day, as with back in the Mohawk days, it doesn't matter what the aircraft type is, it's going t
102 Cubsrule : No, but larger operators tend to operate larger aircraft.
103 tan flyr : we can no longer afford this program. period. If STATES or LOCALITIES want to pay for it, fine. But the Federal Govm't should get out of this busiens
104 Goldenshield : Again, not true. There are operators with small numbers of large (and heavy) aircraft, just as there are operators with large numbers of small aircra
105 BMI727 : In that case the fishing companies should get together to fund flights themselves if they need it so badly.
106 Cubsrule : OK. But this is getting sort of far afield. What evidence do you have that operators or larger aircraft (say 30 seats or more) are not, as a group, m
107 AADC10 : There are many instances of EAS not making any sense but it was necessary to sell deregulation. Smaller airports that had commercial service before th
108 Post contains images enilria : So, here is the problem with that. There are other people who live in the community besides the fishermen. If the fishing company paid for the flight
109 Goldenshield : I'm not sure how you drew this conclusion. All I said way back when is that STATISTICALLY, based on the number of legs and hours flown per day, the o
110 rampart : No, most goes to student support (medical, facilities, clubs) and sports. Some lab fees go to research. ??? No. Most research happens in large state
111 Post contains images KingFriday013 : That's what I thought too, but at my old school, clubs and student groups were struggling with the budgets they were given. If it was going to facili
112 atrude777 : But they lose TIME. You have great examples for the Leisure folks who have no problem taking the time to drive or ride along, between 2-6 hours (the
113 Post contains images KingFriday013 : I know what you're saying, but it's complicated. On a bus with wifi and power, they can work. That time is billable, i.e. they make money during that
114 BMI727 : That doesn't have to be the way it is. Some of the businesses in and around the Raleigh Durham area subsidize the RDU-LHR flights, but those are very
115 rampart : atrude777, do you happen to know if Mt Vernon ever had any EAS service after Deregulation (and after Ozark pulled out)? I know Air Illinois at Carbond
116 atrude777 : I am not aware of MVN ever having EAS. Once EAS occurred, in our area and state it was only MWA, DEC, UIN, as SPI, CMI, BMI, MLI, RFD etc could all s
117 ikramerica : So what? Ever try to get to JFK from North Jersey on a Friday afternoon? That can also be a 2 hour drive. Many of these routes should be "thruway bus
118 Cubsrule : But all things are not equal, largely for the reasons you've listed. So why would we compare as though all things are equal? I agree with you that a
119 LAXdude1023 : I personally support EAS, but it might need to be revamped. I agree with some posters that those airports that are within an hour drive of a midsized
120 usxguy : Alex, Great Lakes used to fly Mt. Vernon- Springfield - OHare. Mattoon was also EAS, and so was Carbondale... plane went MDH-DEC-ORD or MDH-ATO-DEC-OR
121 Skywatcher : As a Canadian I find this topic fascinating. I live in a country that is climaticly harsher, more geographically dispersed and arguably more "socialis
122 KingFriday013 : Getting from midtown to JFK can be two hours on some days... That's what I'm getting at with giving subsidies to Greyhound/Stagecoach/other bus opera
123 rampart : CO does this from Allentown. I almost booked a flight from ABE -- about equidistant for me to get to ABE as it is to EWR -- when I realized it still
124 Post contains images ONT2CGI : That was Air Illinois. I've also been a consumer of EAS, back when My Mother lived in CGI. Work in a 402 ? The only plane I've been on where I needed
125 Cubsrule : Anybody who needs to "justify" work done with no internet access needs a new job, or at least a new manager. Maybe - but I've found that buses/trains
126 ikramerica : "Maybe - but I've found that buses/trains/planes are about equal time wasters, and with the EAS service, the experience at the connecting airport is
127 Cubsrule : Not at all. For these purposes, I'm not arguing that EAS is good or bad, just pointing out that the idea that buses are great for productivity and ai
128 usxguy : Actually Great Lakes did it too... I started in DEC with them in 1996.... we had a handful of people flying to MDH to see their kids (or were shippin
129 tan flyr : All these "Small Potatoes" programs add up..to billions..and yes any way you want to figure it, at least 42% is borrowed money. OR you could make a c
130 ikramerica : But you responded to me and I never made any claims about productivity, as that should not be a factor in this discussion. I know some people are get
131 Cubsrule : The trouble is that in so doing, it cuts out a whole class of travelers - those who actually want to go downtown. Most EAS routes connect to the near
132 Post contains links and images rampart : OK, I found my reference that seems to say that Air Illinois and MDH were not EAS. I pointed this out in an old thread: Can Airline Service Succeed I
133 brilondon : I think that there should not be any subsidies. The route should be able to stand on its own and if it doesn't make money then it should not exist. A
134 Cubsrule : All right. If I choose to live in the big, scary city, should I pay for my own private security rather than having police protection? There are a lot
135 Post contains links atrude777 : http://www.semissourian.com/story/1797944.html Just throwing this out there. Not very often you hear profit and EAS in same sentence. I am hoping the
136 eclipseflight7 : And all EAS, in the main 48 anyway, should be weened of federal support. The United States is connected by the most efficient network of roads the wor
137 atrude777 : We keep spouting off "our taxes" are going to the EAS stuff... How? Is it in our bills, when we go shopping? How exactly is it figured how much we are
138 tan flyr : It would have to come from one of two general sources,1. your FEDERAL income tax witholding from each paycheck you get and/or excise taxes on various
139 BMI727 : You're missing the key difference that police protection is one of the basic services the government should be providing while airline service is not
140 atrude777 : I was referring to the paying for it through our taxes. It is MY taxes that is going back to me, so I have no complaints since I am using it. That's
141 BMI727 : You should have complaints considering the vast majority of EAS flights you do not use. The government's money is our money. If different governments
142 atrude777 : I see it as a fair trade. True..my money is going to other flights that I don't use. However their money is going to my flights that I do use. I call
143 BMI727 : As long as you admit that it's because you like aviation and not because it is necessary or a good use of funds that's okay. It isn't a matter of wha
144 Coronado : To me EAS is no different than shelling out maintenance dollars to fund the repairs of I35 between Minneapolis and Des Moines. It does absolutely no g
145 atrude777 : Providing Jobs to me, is in my opinion, and no one else's "necessary and a good use of funds". I am not admitting it's because I am an enthusiast, it
146 Post contains images KingFriday013 : The reason I suggested having Internet access is primarily for remote desktop access... so you're virtually in your office (so you can access the dif
147 brilondon : I did not say "its not the government's business", all I said is if the airlines cannot run the route profitably then they should not be flying it. T
148 KingFriday013 : That's a completely different ballgame... they keep prices down because they can afford to do so -- not by making up for it with the rest of the coun
149 Concordski : I could see EAS existing in Alaska where a limited amount of roads to get around coupled with distance make EAS worthwhile there with its 45 subsidize
150 Mir : I also doubt taxes will be lower. But the money saved from cutting EAS is still money that the government can use to pay down the massive debt it's b
151 Cubsrule : How do we define "basic services the government should be providing? Which is great, but it's not something that most folks need 8 hours a day every
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