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Delta 737-832 To MZJ?  
User currently offlineDLATL37 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 27 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7173 times:

Any idea why Delta sent a 737-832 to MZJ ?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...2/history/20111207/1300Z/KIND/KMZJ

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6945 times:

Searching Google, it looks like that number 9932 was a charter number for the Orlando Magic as NWA. The rest of the flights shown on FlightAware don't look like sports charters for a particular team due to the dates and routes. I don't know who else would charter it - not University of AZ - they played that evening in Florida.

User currently offlineSYfan100 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6945 times:

Perhaps one of the following as I am just going as a guess.
1.Charter
2.Older Aircraft that is close to retirement.
*Remember there are some older Boeing 737-800s moving about in which it's no different then the 757-200, with some of those older planes being retired.


User currently offlineaudidudi From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

According to Airways Magazine, DL sent N386DA to MZJ on 12/07/11 for four months storage.

User currently offlineSYfan100 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

Quoting audidudi (Reply 3):

Interesting as I would like to know how they pick each aircraft to go into storage? I know some have to do with lease and season as well. But is this a season or lease type thing?


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6818 times:
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It's hard to believe that some of the 738s are getting close to retirement age, for a standard time airframe, without a life-extension tear-down and rework


Made from jets!
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6815 times:

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 4):
Quoting audidudi (Reply 3):

Interesting as I would like to know how they pick each aircraft to go into storage? I know some have to do with lease and season as well. But is this a season or lease type thing?

According to an aircraft site, DAL has 117 active MD80's and something like 27 D95s still flying, yet they ground a 738. What sense does that make?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15718 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6782 times:

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 4):
Interesting as I would like to know how they pick each aircraft to go into storage?

A lot of it has to do with which planes are about due for maintenance. Airlines would like to delay some of that cost. Also, leasing considerations play a part as well. A lease with certain maintenance or hours restrictions might be a better one to park.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineamccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6759 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
DAL has 117 active MD80's and something like 27 D95s still flying, yet they ground a 738. What sense does that make?

Because the DC9s are fully owned aircraft there is no fixed cost in operating them. There is only variable cost due to operating the aircraft. That is not the case of the 737s. During the slow season in North America it makes sense for Delta to store aircraft not fully owned. The operation of a 737-800 may not cover the fixed costs of its lease and its variable costs of its operation. Therefore Delta will lose less money storing the aircraft than they would operating the aircraft. Simple economics 101.



What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineredrooster3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6724 times:

N386DA is Pushing 12 years old. Time does go by fast as you get older.   I would agree with BMI727, could be just delaying maintenance costs.


The only thing you should change about a woman is her last name.
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

Quoting amccann (Reply 8):
Because the DC9s are fully owned aircraft there is no fixed cost in operating them. There is only variable cost due to operating the aircraft. That is not the case of the 737s. During the slow season in North America it makes sense for Delta to store aircraft not fully owned. The operation of a 737-800 may not cover the fixed costs of its lease and its variable costs of its operation. Therefore Delta will lose less money storing the aircraft than they would operating the aircraft. Simple economics 101.

So, from what you're saying DL will park the aircraft and stop paying lease payments for a few months while the aircraft is parked? Can you set up a lease like that? If you go on vacation can you stop paying rent or mortgages?
If older, depreciated aircraft were the path to success would AA be in Chapter 11?


User currently offlinemark8762 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6523 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):
If older, depreciated aircraft were the path to success would AA be in Chapter 11?

Seems to work for G4


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6480 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):

No. The lease payments still have to be made. What he's saying is many times, during slow season, it's cheaper to park the a/c and ONLY pay the lease rather than fly it and loose money (payments/fuel, etc etc) due to the fact that pax travel takes a nose dive in the fourth qtr.

As to the DC9/88 comment, DL would rather fly the paint off of those than build up hours on a frame they plan on keeping. This is why you saw them parking wingleted 757s while 20+ year PMDL and PMNW 757s are flying. Defer the mtc on the newer ones and max out the cycles on the older ones as they are due for retirement shortly anyway. And just an FYI but DL owns all their 738s. They aren't making "lease payments" in the sense that a lessor actually owns them but they are making mortage payments; paying on the loans made to buy the a/c. They also own all DC9s, MD90s, 73Gs, 777s, 764, and over 90% of the 763ER fleet.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6475 times:

Not sure why it went. I could have sworn I read somewhere it was going to MZJ for a week of Movie / film work, but I can't find where I read it. On the Lease VS Own summary it shows Delta Owns all 73 737-832. Ill keep checking where I read the info from.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15718 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6262 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):
So, from what you're saying DL will park the aircraft and stop paying lease payments for a few months while the aircraft is parked?

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that it might be better overall for DL to park that plane and eat the lease (or finance) payments versus paying that and potentially losing money on the operation of the plane.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
As to the DC9/88 comment, DL would rather fly the paint off of those than build up hours on a frame they plan on keeping. This is why you saw them parking wingleted 757s while 20+ year PMDL and PMNW 757s are flying.

Although it isn't applicable in this case with Delta, the secondary market can play a part too. If I have excess capacity, I'd rather park a 737 than a DC-9 since I can most likely lease out the 737 for a while to a charter operator or something while moving a DC-9 could be more difficult.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1991 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting amccann (Reply 8):
Because the DC9s are fully owned aircraft there is no fixed cost in operating them. There is only variable cost due to operating the aircraft. That is not the case of the 737s. During the slow season in North America it makes sense for Delta to store aircraft not fully owned. The operation of a 737-800 may not cover the fixed costs of its lease and its variable costs of its operation. Therefore Delta will lose less money storing the aircraft than they would operating the aircraft. Simple economics 101.

And this makes sense why? The lease payments go on, whether the airplane operates 14 hours a day, or sits in the desert at Marana. I think you need to go back to school and take Econ 101, Econ 102, and perhaps a few accounting courses too. While the lease payments are sunk costs, so is the money that was spent to buy the DC-9's. There is no cash advantage to storing a leased airplane, versus a paid for airplane, unless the lease is an operating lease that has some clause that reduces the lease payments if the airplane is parked. A valid reason would be a lease that restricts the number of cycles or hours during the life of the lease. Is this a Winglet airplane? Is it possible it will have winglets installed before returning to service?


User currently offlineaudidudi From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
Is this a Winglet airplane? Is it possible it will have winglets installed before returning to service?

I believe that all DLs 738s have winglets.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

I think there are stipulations on hours as well in the lease. Just like if you lease a car, you are alotted certain miles within that lease period. If you go over, you pay pretty hefty fees.

User currently offlineamccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
I think you need to go back to school and take Econ 101, Econ 102, and perhaps a few accounting courses too.

Quite insulting, especially considering just yesterday I graduated Magna Cum Laude with one of the most difficult degrees at my university. However, back on topic...

Question

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
While the lease payments are sunk costs, so is the money that was spent to buy the DC-9's. There is no cash advantage to storing a leased airplane, versus a paid for airplane, unless the lease is an operating lease that has some clause that reduces the lease payments if the airplane is parked.

Answer

Quoting toobz (Reply 17):
I think there are stipulations on hours as well in the lease. Just like if you lease a car, you are alotted certain miles within that lease period. If you go over, you pay pretty hefty fees.

However...

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
DL owns all their 738s.
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
DL would rather fly the paint off of those than build up hours on a frame they plan on keeping. This is why you saw them parking wingleted 757s while 20+ year PMDL and PMNW 757s are flying. Defer the mtc on the newer ones and max out the cycles on the older ones as they are due for retirement shortly anyway.

Therefore there is a definite cost advantage to storing a 737-800 versus a DC9. It is a safe assumption that the crew of a 737-800 is approximately equal in cost to the crew of a DC9. The cost to perform a C or D check on a newer aircraft (including lost opportunity cost of removing the aircraft from service) versus utilizing an older aircraft that can be retired once it reaches it next C or D check will more than offset the increased fuel cost of a DC9 versus a 737-800.

Additionally, you'd be surprised to discover the difference in fuel burn between the 737-800 and the DC9 is not as drastic as it is made out to seem.

DC-9 And MD-8 Fuel Consumption (by Rottamo Feb 23 2006 in Tech Ops)



What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):

Sorry but you're making a lot of assumtions and your questions tell me off the bad you don't have all the info.

First off, I have no idea why this particular a/c was ferried Mojave. Someone mentioned it was temp. leased to a company for movie filming and id like to do some digging to confirm why its out there but the discussion is still a relevent one even if it turns out that it does not apply to this particular a/c because its happened before. A couple things...all DL 737s have winglets. None of DL's 737s are leased. This is to clear up some confusion because you and other members are still harping on that. Now, look at it this way. You have a trucking company with 3 trucks in the fleet. 2 are 20 years old and paid for and one is 4 years old and owned (still paying the note). Your "slow season" is Nov-Feb so you have no use fo all 3. Your older trucks are coming up on a tranny and engine overhaul and you don't want to spend the money on those repairs but they still have several months of life left. Would you let one of those trucks sit early even though they are planned to be sold/parted in March or continue to drive your new truck, adding more miles on it when you can run your beater into the ground. That is all this is. The capacity is not needed. The # geeks like me say, you're flying around 1,000 extra seats than you need to. The 9s are going anyway. Makes no sense to park them earlier than scheduled. Do you know how many hours/cycles a Delta 738 an accumilate in 3 months? Just looking at one ship from yesterday, it did 6 legs in one day.

Quoting amccann (Reply 18):

Spot on..

[Edited 2011-12-18 17:58:40]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinedlatl37 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3328 times:

Delta sent another 737-832 to MZJ today...


DAL9935
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...5/history/20111221/1300Z/KATL/KMZJ


User currently offlinem404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2224 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3134 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

A Thought...
One equation so far not considered. For every seat/flight taken out of service in a known depressed demand quarter ( or any other time barring competion offering new service) can raise the price of a ticket on the remaining service. Most carriers are know to be doing this and DL posted a long time ago that an even bigger reduction in service would occur after Christmas.

FlyASA and others have this covered



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1991 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 17):
Quoting toobz (Reply 17):
I think there are stipulations on hours as well in the lease. Just like if you lease a car, you are alotted certain miles within that lease period. If you go over, you pay pretty hefty fees.

Many of these leases are Capital as opposed to operating leases, and are nothing more than devices to keep "debt" off th

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
Sorry but you're making a lot of assumtions and your questions tell me off the bad you don't have all the info.

First off, I have no idea why this particular a/c was ferried Mojave. Someone mentioned it was temp. leased to a company for movie filming and id like to do some digging to confirm why its out there but the discussion is still a relevent one even if it turns out that it does not apply to this particular a/c because its happened before. A couple things...all DL 737s have winglets. None of DL's 737s are leased. This is to clear up some confusion because you and other members are still harping on that. Now, look at it this way. You have a trucking company with 3 trucks in the fleet. 2 are 20 years old and paid for and one is 4 years old and owned (still paying the note). Your "slow season" is Nov-Feb so you have no use fo all 3. Your older trucks are coming up on a tranny and engine overhaul and you don't want to spend the money on those repairs but they still have several months of life left. Would you let one of those trucks sit early even though they are planned to be sold/parted in March or continue to drive your new truck, adding more miles on it when you can run your beater into the ground. That is all this is. The capacity is not needed. The # geeks like me say, you're flying around 1,000 extra seats than you need to. The 9s are going anyway. Makes no sense to park them earlier than scheduled. Do you know how many hours/cycles a Delta 738 an accumilate in 3 months? Just looking at one ship from yesterday, it did 6 legs in one day.

I never said the 737-832's were leased. I just pointed out that if an airplane was leased, or financed for that matter, that the payments went on and had to be covered regardless of whether Delta scheduled the airplane in operations or parked it. It is not unusual for Delta to park aircraft in the winter period because of lower capacity needs.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 1):
I don't know who else would charter it - not University of AZ - they played that evening in Florida.

Nobody, not even military charters, go to MZJ. It's a good 50-60 minutes to the Arizona campus, and there are zero facilities there (trust me, I've been there). Arizona hoops charters on USAir, and more recently Swift Air (the players will get spoiled on that 734), and they all go out of TUS.

When the military unit stationed at Marana deploys/returns, they fly to Luke AFB up in PHX and bus down. The pilots bring the choppers back, but the ground support folks are flying in on a troop charter to a normal AFB. As I mentioned before, the facilities there are barren at best and everyone gets an armed escort onto the property (strangely, you don't need one leaving?).


User currently offlinedlatl37 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Looks like another went to MZJ on Wednesday.. That makes three 737-832 in storage in MZJ


DAL9931

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...1/history/20120104/1600Z/KLAX/KMZJ


User currently offlineluftaom From Australia, joined May 1999, 426 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
There is no cash advantage to storing a leased airplane, versus a paid for airplane, unless the lease is an operating lease that has some clause that reduces the lease payments if the airplane is parked.

I agree. Well done for putting it so clearly.


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