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Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?  
User currently offlinedtwpilot225 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 125 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11922 times:
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Almost every flight in the uploaded Delta schedule is on regional jets. LGA to DFW in an E170 6 times a day? I am just very confused is that all the capacity they think is in LGA or are they testing all these markets out? Also I suspected that since Pinnacle has a JFK base they would have a co base with LGA but Pinnacle is not listed on more than a couple of these routes.

[Edited 2011-12-18 11:30:16 by SA7700]

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinechrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4110 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11884 times:

I think what airlines need to do is ask airplane-makers for a bigger plane for airports like these. Maybe call it something like a 'DC-10' or an 'L-1011' or something along those lines.

What a novel idea that would be.


User currently offlinedavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11739 times:

Remember the E170 is not the CRJ200. It holds 70 seats, of which 4 are F. Better even is the E175, with 12/64 configuration. The E175 really is a decent plane to fly on and is similar to the MD88 IMHO.

Also, these are aircraft DL would seem to have right now as they've drawn down CVG and MEM so much. This does not mean that all these routes will stay RJs. DL could acquire more 737s from either Boeing, or order A3xx from Airbus, or buy from other carriers, all of which DL has been willing to do if conditions were right.

So just because it is an RJ now, does not mean that it will be RJ in the future.

Also, FWIW, with 12 F on E175, that is the same F cabin as the A319 and only 4 seats less than the MD series. Which considering how many fewer seats the cabin has is a higher relationship of F to Y seats. In a premium market, this does make some sense. It allows a higher percentage of F to Y ration for both purchase and upgrade.

Not an all bad plan I should think.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11717 times:
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Quoting chrisnh (Reply 2):
I think what airlines need to do is ask airplane-makers for a bigger plane for airports like these. Maybe call it something like a 'DC-10' or an 'L-1011' or something along those lines.

What a novel idea that would be.

I don't think that was the OP's point.

DL indulged in quite a bit of politics and lobbying and invested the company legal team in obtaining the additional slots. Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

Your point is correct also. TW and DL have sent 767s into LGA in the past


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3448 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11608 times:

It just burns me up as a lifelong New Yorker.

All these people on here were pissed that DL and US had to divest slots . . . and god forbid WN should get them.

But the truth is, from a pure economics standpoint, I want the airport in my borough and in my city to get the most bang for the buck with these slots. I want them used as efficiently as possible, bringing the most people into the airport and creating economic growth and jobs for the city.

UA had to divest slots to WN at EWR and now you have a bunch of mainline 737s flying key business routes there.

DL gets US slots, after US slot-squatted for years with everything but a Cessna 172, and we get a bunch of RJs to create a "domestic hub."

I said it before, I am glad 16 slots have gone to carriers that WILL use mainline aircraft on them. It's a shame more didn't go that way.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11591 times:

Why put mainline aircraft on routes that can only profitably support RJ service? It's not going to be in the best interest of DL to put mainline aircraft on smaller demand routes ex LGA. If demand builds, then they can add mainline aircraft. However, as we have seen with other carriers (AA, US, and even CO out of EWR), a lot of these routes can only support RJ service. Just because the route originates in NYC doesn't mean it has to be served by a mainline aircraft.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4454 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11573 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
Does this really need its own thread...

Yes.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 2):
I think what airlines need to do is ask airplane-makers for a bigger plane for airports like these. Maybe call it something like a 'DC-10' or an 'L-1011' or something along those lines.

What a novel idea that would be.

Well, it's the "capacity vs frequency" argument. Personally, I believe the "frequency" argument is a joke, as what good is it being on the 4pm flight LGA-ORD when due to congestion it actually doesn't take off until 5:15pm? Space out the flights a bit, drop the insane "every hour" frequency and use larger planes so you are able to offer the same number of seats. (* Of course, the airline's fleets aren't able to do this due to the lack of large narrowbody / small(er) widebodies, so we won't see this happen at least for 20 or 30 years).

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
DL indulged in quite a bit of politics and lobbying and invested the company legal team in obtaining the additional slots. Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

RJs are "domestic service" these days. It's becoming more and more rare that you actually fly mainline when flying domestically.  


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1269 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11507 times:

I really don't understand the obsession with mainline jets. The larger aircraft just pack in more bodies with no additional comfort and if the flights aren't full, greater fuel consumption and lower net revenue. With the sole exception of the CRJ-100/200 the regional jets I fly on multiple times per week are actually more comfortable and provide a better passenger experience than any of the mainline jets. An added plus is never having to worry about getting stuck in a middle seat. The regional crews in general tend to be harder working and have better attitudes than mainline crews. With respect to LGA, DL will earn all of my business to New York come July.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16861 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11492 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Your point is correct also. TW and DL have sent 767s into LGA in the past

As well as Eastern, Pan Am and Continental A300s.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11405 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):

Okay   have at it



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3448 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11395 times:

"I really don't understand the obsession with mainline jets."

They clog a slot at a slot-controlled airport thereby artificially suppressing supply

AND

There are carriers out that (WN, B6, WS, NK, Allegiant) that want to fly mainline service with those slots

THEREFORE

By letting an airline like US, or now DL, sit on hundreds of slots and artificially suppressing supply when there are other carriers willing to fly larger jets into LGA that can not get a slot, there is a legit "obsession" with RJs at slot controlled airports.


NOTE

There are routes like DSM that can not support mainline service, and I fully support RJs into LGA for these select markets. But when you see an RJ on LGA-DFW/IAH 5 or 6 times a day, when you know that WN would love to fly LGA-HOU 4 or 5 times a day with a 737 if they had the extra slots, there is a BIG problem in my humble opinion.


User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11302 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):

I certainly see your point. At the same time, I'm thinking of the aircraft size vs. frequency thing; 6 170s to, for example, IAH, seems to me to be a flight every 2.5 hours. If they were all "mainlined" I'd see only one flight every 4-5 hours and as a business traveler that doesn't seem desirable.



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4552 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11290 times:

Quoting davescj (Reply 3):
The E175 really is a decent plane to fly on

I am not really a fan of regional jets but I love the E175. In my opinion it is the most comfortable standard coach product Delta offers.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11286 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
There are carriers out that (WN, B6, WS, NK, Allegiant) that want to fly mainline service with those slots

Neither of the aforementioned carriers would be able to offer the diversity of service as DL since they do not have the range of fleet sizes to properly serve the number of destinations as DL. Also, business and tourist passengers would prefer an airline that offer more options (ie. flight times) than once a day on a mainline aircraft.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
By letting an airline like US, or now DL, sit on hundreds of slots and artificially suppressing supply when there are other carriers willing to fly larger jets into LGA that can not get a slot, there is a legit "obsession" with RJs at slot controlled airports.

What percentage of flights out of LGA are on RJ's and how does this compare to cities such as DEN, MIA, CLE, MSP, BOS, EWR, etc?


User currently offlinegreenwichsud From United States of America, joined May 2008, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11201 times:

My question is: how is DL going to be successful doing essentially the same thing that US did at LGA (and apparently failed at)? Is it the "elimination" of a competitor (in this case US) that will give DL the leg up this time around? Are their costs lower? Will they be able to scale better since it's a larger hub than either had previously? Is their (projected) RASM going to be higher? What is different?

[Edited 2011-12-18 08:02:16]

User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11095 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 14):
What percentage of flights out of LGA are on RJ's and how does this compare to cities such as DEN, MIA, CLE, MSP, BOS, EWR, etc?

Delta LGA July 2012-

A319/A320/A321- 37
737- 6
MD88- 24
757- 15
CRJ2/7/9-55
E170/175-65
ERJ-59

Mainline 31%
RJs 69%



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11018 times:

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 15):
Is it the "elimination" of a competitor (in this case US) that will give DL the leg up this time around?

Not a huge deal since they only overlapped on a few markets like CMH and RDU.

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 15):
Are their costs lower?

Yes, in general.

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 15):
Will they be able to scale better since it's a larger hub than either had previously?

Yes. If you look at what US had at LGA, they barely served any major business markets. DL will serve just about every major business market east of the Mississippi (with generally 4+ daily flights). That's got some attractiveness for a business traveler.

Also, Delta has a name for itself in New York, which US lost over the last few years.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

The key there is "to the untrained eye". They know exactly what to do with them: spread them out over as many key markets as possible with the highest frequency they can, all while operating flights on aircraft that are not too large to fill profitably but still have the option of first class for premium travelers. Of the 264 daily flights DL will operate from LGA, only 65 will not have premium cabin service. And 62 of those 65 are on ERJ-145s, which are much more comfortable than CRJ-200s.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10874 times:

RJ's is too general a term for this thread.

There are CRJ's and E70's. Both considered "RJ's". But they are worlds apart passenger experience wise.

Hopefully E70's will be the smallest option soon in DL's mind. Not holding my breath as wishful thinking is not always practical thinking, right?  



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10794 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

They've had 2 years to figure all of this out. They know exactly what they are doing. Trust me.

This is merely the first schedule. Once they are able to get the hub up and running and debugged, a clearer picture of both demand and pricing power will emerge. At that time, expect to seem selective upsizing of aircraft on certain routes and at specific times of the day to meet this demand.

The absolute last thing you want to do is put lots of capacity out there in a new hub and in a weak economy. Why destroy your pricing power from the very start?

Also remember that even though this is only Phase 1 of the LGA buildup, DL is already operating larger aircraft in many cases than US was operating, with a corresponding increase in capacity with no increase in the overall number of overall LGA flights.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6763 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10537 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):

Not a huge deal since they only overlapped on a few markets like CMH and RDU.

Kinda huge deal in those markets though.. where RDU went from 720 seats between US and DL to just 490 seats. Delta is making it better for AA to grab some of the market back. I was hoping for some mainline upguage and status quo on the number of flights to make it make more sense but it didn't happen that way. I could see a loss of some seats but not 230 seats...



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10188 times:

I am not surprised that DL is entering new markets with small aircraft. The airline made a sizeable boost in capacity. The routes have to develop. With the exception of the holiday season, all the new frequencies in routes are being launched in the low season. With time, I'd expect DL to right size markets and many more larger aircraft will come when the busier summer season picks up. DL will have some pretty low load factors on these routes as they continue to develop, so E170s make sense.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineboac747 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10130 times:

Would love to see LGA get an HOV lane!

Can't count the times I've been told we are 20+ in line for take off, only to look out the window and see a conga line of props and RJ's.


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3814 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9193 times:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 8):
The regional crews in general tend to be harder working and have better attitudes than mainline crews.

Which planet have you been flying regional flights on? Take me with you!

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 19):
Kinda huge deal in those markets though.. where RDU went from 720 seats between US and DL to just 490 seats. Delta is making it better for AA to grab some of the market back. I was hoping for some mainline upguage and status quo on the number of flights to make it make more sense but it didn't happen that way. I could see a loss of some seats but not 230 seats...

Look up the numbers on the two airlines performance and then decide how many seats you'd put in that market. I think the RDU schedule from LGA provides enough frequency to not lose any traffic and the right amount of seats to actually make money.


User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4896 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 17):

RJ's is too general a term for this thread.

There are CRJ's and E70's. Both considered "RJ's". But they are worlds apart passenger experience wise.

Indeed. I doubt anyone here would whine about having to sit in an RJ-85 for two hours. Go back a few decades and "RJs" were called DC-9-10s and BAC 1-11s. The E-Jets are more like mainline jets than they are commuter prop fuselages with turbines strapped to the sides. Heck, the stretched versions are operated by majors.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9068 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 22):
Quoting Flaps (Reply 8):
The regional crews in general tend to be harder working and have better attitudes than mainline crews.

Which planet have you been flying regional flights on? Take me with you!

I've also noticed better crews on regional flights. I think this is due to the fact that regional crews tend to be younger, harder working, not as burnt out as the mainline crews, etc.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
25 mm320cap : Ahhh yes. This is the classic mainline management argument for continuing to use more and more RJ's. This makes one huge assumption though: that the
26 slcdeltarumd11 : Delta To Dominate Lga, With Regional Jets? What did you expect? They have to solidify their presence in those markets whats the point of flying half e
27 N62NA : Best suggestion I've read on here in a very long time!
28 RoseFlyer : That goes against the way air traffic works in the United States. I've seen a 777 have to wait for a C172 takeoff. What would be good would be having
29 dtwpilot225 : My point of the original post was that it is rediculous to have pilots making 30 dollars an hour flyIng from lga to Dfw I'm sick of it that's all
30 thegoldenargosy : That is the state of flying in the United States. We care more about frequency than anything else.
31 Post contains images kgaiflyer : One of my favorite memories is years ago -- while on a NW DC-9 -- having our plane swerve off the taxiway and onto the grass at IAD after being overt
32 Flaps : You are certainly well entitled to your opinion on that. Unfortunately, free market economics has determined that to be the model. No different than
33 b727fa : Am I really the only one to catch this mistake? The 170 has 6 F seats. As a mainline FA I'm frustrated that only MIA is on ML. Now, the RJ fleets hav
34 capitalflyer : ...which in turn means higher fares. These higher fares mean more profit. Which is what airlines are in the business for anyway. If I can add 1 or 2
35 boberito6589 : I don't think flying 3-4 737s a day to a market would give the flights a higher chance of being on time, and in turn might actually make the business
36 comairguycvg : They should re-name the Regional Jet to National Jet.
37 IndyWA : Actually, they are in the process of converting these to 9 F seats / 60 Y (S5 already has a few converted)
38 aajfksjubklyn : - Its an implosion waiting to happen. I dont get any of it in all honesty, and nor do many on here. Who the heck would fly NY-LGA on a Regional Jet, 4
39 Viscount724 : UA and AA also used 767s at LGA. Also AA, DL and National DC-10s and DL, Eastern and TWA L-1011s. Only if it's 5-abreast when the Avro RJ/BAe16 is exc
40 apodino : You forget one thing though. In a delay program, because of operational issues created as well as the LOB situation, this by nature leads to a large
41 Post contains images DCA-ROCguy : Many of us are asking the same question. I'm not as confident as our Delta supporters that DL will succeed where US has failed. It still amazes me th
42 greenwichsud : OK, but why did US choose to tuck it's tail between its legs rather than attempt to exploit these opportunities on their own? Weren't they in many of
43 b4real : I'm sorry, but I can't agree with any of this. The only exception would be if the CRJ is empty and I'd be the only passenger compared to a packed 757
44 peanuts : With all due respect. Why are we comparing US to DL or DL to US??? They have some things in common but the differences are far more. US is way out of
45 greenwichsud : I'm not sure who you are referring to, but my statements were not meant as an in depth comparison of DL to US. What I am seeing (admittedly as a humb
46 Flighty : What you do is you deploy your RJs (which need a mission) and you cut seat count to the bone at LGA. Then it is your monopoly and you have NYC by the
47 N62NA : I'd also like to see this done at EWR.
48 FSDan : There are two big reasons that jump out at me right away as to why US's strategy and DL's strategy are not similar: 1) Even though DL is using many R
49 BMI727 : Someone I know had their STL-DCA itinerary on Delta changed since apparently the nonstop flights are going away. I must have missed this news, but I w
50 peanuts : It wasn't pointed at you directly. It was a general statement directed at the folks who think just because US couldn't make something work, the same
51 Post contains images PIEAvantiP180 : The best post of this tread and a full explanation of how DL will make both airports work together and compliment each other.
52 TOMMY767 : DL is essentially copying the UA/CO hub at EWR by flying RJ's with frequency to key business destinations. The only difference is majority of the flig
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