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Rumour: AF/KL To Merge With AZ?  
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 13065 times:

The french news magazine l'Express is reporting a rumour of a possible merge between AirFrance/KLM and Alitalia.
The article source is an Italian newspaper.
Sorry, link only in French:

http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/1/...-un-quotidien-italien_1062734.html

I think it was just a question of time before such a merger would be announced....

Thoughts?


If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12344 times:

Berlusconi merged AZ with AP to prevent takeover by AF-KL, but now AZ will merge with AF-KL anyway.    What a waste of time and money. Wasn't it obvious that the present owner of AZ (CAI) would sell it to AF-KL after the lock-up period (OCT13)?

User currently offlinekiwinlondon From New Zealand, joined Dec 2011, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11996 times:

This rumour has been doing the rounds for at least a couple of years - no real surprise and probably just a matter of time.

Kiwinlondon


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11975 times:

Here's part of the article translated in English, for non french-speaking:

"The mission of Alitalia for a wedding in Paris with Air France," headlined the newspaper, saying that Alitalia officials met Friday in Paris, the CEO of the Air France-KLM Group, Jean-Cyril Spinetta."

I think it's been a long term project of Spinetta to make such a merger possible. I'm not surprised to see him back in business, driving negotiations with AZ.

On a side note, AF/KL is looking for a strong reinforcement, with a sound partner. AZ is a strong one definitely.

The Berlusconi action on all this was more a personal image question than a real matter in national value of AZ. In fact, he didn't care at all... Now Berlusconi has gone, and the merger is possible again.

I think AZ will keep its own identity, just as KL and AF separatly did.

My question is, will the UE authorize such a merger, and if they do, how this will impact AF/KL/AZ main competitors, LH, and BA?



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11917 times:

I dont know how AZ is doing, but AF is not doing that great, so is it really a good idea to merge with another airline?


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11815 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 3):
My question is, will the UE authorize such a merger, and if they do, how this will impact AF/KL/AZ main competitors, LH, and BA?

I don't see how competition authorities could disagree, given the precedent set by LH buying up almost every national airline within 1000 miles of Germany  
Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):
I dont know how AZ is doing, but AF is not doing that great, so is it really a good idea to merge with another airline?

AZ are a very much renewed carrier. There are still some hints of the old, state owned dinosaur, but on the whole, they are a much more nimble airline than they were. AF will work through it's issues - especially with Spinetta back in charge.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11813 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):
I dont know how AZ is doing, but AF is not doing that great, so is it really a good idea to merge with another airline?

   I was wondering the same. AZ is still in the red, by the way.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 3):
how this will impact AF/KL/AZ main competitors, LH, and BA?

It might start a whole new round of takeovers. IAG is taking over BD, so they are fine for now, but LH might purchase TP.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11705 times:
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AirFrance - KLM needs to bulk up more with LH and IAG buying more airlines, the picking in Europe are getting slim. Alitalia would be the best option for AF-KLM group. IF Alitalia went with AF that means there are only 2 airline left to merge into larger groups, TAP and AL, except for SAS and Finnair.

User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4459 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 11187 times:
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That merger has been on the plans of AF-KL since they took a 25% stake in the new Alitalia, against Berlusconi'q wishes (and of somepeople of the Milan area ).
The contract signed in 2009 foresaw a transfer of AZ assets to AFKL in october 2013 (IIRC)...
It seems that they want to go faster, and that's understandable as for the weak economy of Italy at this moment, period presents quite a lot of opportunities for Lufthansa to start increasing market shares in Italian airports.
Only a merger with someone with a similar size as LH could fight that.
Problem is, just about everybody is hurting in Europe, and AF more than the averagte.
As they say : "Chi lo sà ?"



Contrail designer
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10800 times:

French and Italians are close people so it could go well (could, and not should, because pride and other considerations will probably get in the way). I'm a little biased since my father is French and my mother Italian 


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10647 times:

I think, as people may see it, it could appear that Alitalia needs more AF/KL than AF/KL needs Alitalia...
But in my opinion, both airlines need each other in these times of economical crisis...
Let's see how networks will be modified afterwards... AZ is already centralizing its operations on FCO hub, letting MXP behind.



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1895 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10572 times:

I believe there was a restriction in the foundation of the new Alitalia-CAI two years ago where it banned AF-KL for purchasing any additional shares for a determined period of time.

I must inform myself better now, but has anyone got any info on this regard?

797



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10297 times:

Quoting 797 (Reply 11):
I believe there was a restriction in the foundation of the new Alitalia-CAI two years ago where it banned AF-KL for purchasing any additional shares for a determined period of time.

Are you referring to the already mentioned lock-up period - until October 2013?


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1895 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9861 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 12):
Are you referring to the already mentioned lock-up period - until October 2013?

Correct, I looked it up already.

Anyhow, I don't see this materializing anytime soon. Although there are strong rumors stating that AZ will purchase some B777-300ER. This would definitely link them with AF, not to mention the new E-190 and E-170 fleet, which will all receive maintenance at an AF facilty.

797



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4459 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9330 times:
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Quoting 797 (Reply 13):
here are strong rumors stating that AZ will purchase some B777-300ER. This would definitely link them with AF,

Aircraft orders will get the synergy between the airlines going.
What is more interesting is how much / how far the nertworks and markets will be integrated : A very good omen is the TATL joint venture, of which AZ is certainly a good party.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8931 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 5):
I don't see how competition authorities could disagree, given the precedent set by LH buying up almost every national airline within 1000 miles of Germany

Well, that is for reasons of them not profiting and could get them at a good price.

I feel like this AF/KL/AZ merger was long awaited ever since AZ has been getting rather cozy with the rest of Skyteam (ex. joining in on the JV with DL/AF/KL)

Plus, I don't see why this would



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7166 times:

So would they call the merged company AirFranceKLMAlitalia   ? Or should they now think of a rebranding, or an umbrella company like IAG?

User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6442 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 16):
So would they call the merged company AirFranceKLMAlitalia   ? Or should they now think of a rebranding, or an umbrella company like IAG?

AZKLAF, AZAFKL, KLAZAF, KLAFAZ, Alcatraz,... the possibilities are endless.    But seriously, probably something like IAG.

Quoting 797 (Reply 13):
Anyhow, I don't see this materializing anytime soon.

Why not? AF-KL seems to be very interested in AZ ever since they purchased 25%. Plus, as Boeing773ER mentioned, they might get AZ cheap while they are still in the red. But I wonder if AF-KL will be able to absorb AZ's losses?


User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6410 times:

Interesting to know that no later than a week ago, the Italian newpaper "Finanza & Mercati" reported a news regarding DL to be in talks with AZ for their entrance in the Alitalia's capital.

(link in Italian)
http://notizie.virgilio.it/notizie/e...anza-mercati,32807324.html?pmk=rss

Then this news has been denied the following day by the AZ President, Roberto Colaninno.
(link in Italian)
http://www.annsa.it/web/notizie/rubr.../visualizza_new.html_13752337.html

It sounds like a way to intentionally leak some news with the purpose of putting pressure on AFKL for their takeover.


User currently offlineCPHFF From Sweden, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
Aircraft orders will get the synergy between the airlines going.
What is more interesting is how much / how far the nertworks and markets will be integrated : A very good omen is the TATL joint venture, of which AZ is certainly a good party.

Yes, but what are those synergies? Economies of Scale seems a bit off. IMO, AZ would be the only winner. What does AZ have to offer AF/KL in flight network that they can't handle on their own?



Detroit is bankrupt. Don't forget to thank UAW folks!
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

KL is already pulling out of MXP. Will only serve LIN. There won't be any nighstopping klm at mxp anymore. Reducing costs. The only other stations where they do this is CDG and PRG. But there will be more to come. Makes more sense to have the local based partner aircraft operate the early flights then the foreign one.


FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5747 times:

Since AF-KL took the 25% stake in AZ, this was to be expected. Already they have some synergies going on with routes and maintenace. I wouldn't call it a merger though, as it won't happen between equals - it will more likely be a takeover, with AF-KL increasing its stake to fully take over the airline. As a result I can imagine an umbrella company like IAG owning AF, KL, AZ which keep their separate brands but coordinate fleets, routes, schedules, maintenance, etc.

User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1895 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 17):
But I wonder if AF-KL will be able to absorb AZ's losses?

Which losses are you specifically talking about?

Alitalia is still in the red zone just because their investment was quite large when they became Alitalia-CAI, not because they have operating losses. As a matter of fact, they have been showing profits for over a year-time. Remember they have purchased a bunch of A320s, A319s, A330s, and the upcoming A350s.

797



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5478 times:

"Alitalia Group reported a net loss of €94 million ($134.9 million) in the 2011 first half, a 43% improvement from the €164 million deficit incurred in the year-ago period. It incurred a €5 million net loss in the second quarter. Half-year operating loss was €69 million compared to a €129 million operating loss in the year-ago period, yet EBIT was positive in the second quarter at €17 million."

Source: ATW

http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...ows-half-year-loss-94-million-0802


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 5):
I don't see how competition authorities could disagree, given the precedent set by LH buying up almost every national airline within 1000 miles of Germany

You over estimate the size of our neighbours, Zurich, Brussels and Vienna are less than 200 miles away, but I agree that there will not be more than a few cosmetic requirements by the anti trust agencies - they are aware that the number of nework carriers in Europe will be 3, not one more and not one less.


25 airproxx : Yep, that's what I was thinking... This merger is just a project right now. To become reality, it has to be authorized by UE and the antitrust entity
26 797 : I stand corrected. Thanks for the input. These figures, however, are far from being alarming. From the operational point of view AZ has been doing gr
27 Coronado : Perhaps a good name for a holding company for AF/KL/AZ could be Delta Europa or Delta CEE (instead of something bland such as the IAG moniker for BA/I
28 peanuts : Let's put it this way: If AZ doesn't merge with AF/KL, something is seriously wrong with all three of them.
29 airproxx : Agreed!
30 Viscount724 : Brussels Airlines may still have some rights to the Delta name since they originated from Delta Air Transport, the former Belgian regional carrier th
31 anstar : I would have liked AF/KL to buy VS/BD rather than Alitalia.
32 Post contains images PezySPU : That's OK, happens to everyone But, I never said (nor did anybody else in this thread) that AZ's figures are alarming. They are actually, IMO, fine.
33 peanuts : Sure. We can go long version or short version on this elaboration. I choose short version, with all due respect. The European aviation market is in a
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