kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8716 times:
Interesting development, definitely good for Air Berlin who have been struggling lately ( then again, who hasn't been?)
Quoting QF340500 (Thread starter): Question: So is Etihad goin to join oneworld eventually???
Considering that they only recently moved away from QF to partner with Virgin Australia that doesn't seem overly likely ( to me, anyway) . If you look at their codeshare arrangments they are all over the place Oneworld, Skyteam, Star and non-aligned
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4249 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8707 times:
Looks like the survival strategy for airlines that are too small to survive is to get Gulf partners. I expected EK to go for AB a while ago, but they made their math and decided for HAM and STR over BER, so Hapag Lloyd fits better to them.
dazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 576 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8064 times:
^ What exactly leads you to believe that EK did their math and recently decided for HAM (a destination for years) and STR (for which they don't have any rights)? Any substance in that assertion?
mikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7703 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1): Considering that they only recently moved away from QF to partner with Virgin Australia that doesn't seem overly likely ( to me, anyway) . If you look at their codeshare arrangments they are all over the place Oneworld, Skyteam, Star and non-aligned
The German company will go ahead with plans to join the Oneworld group of airlines next year, today’s statement said, even though the alliance includes BA owner International Consolidated Airlines Group SA.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1275 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7654 times:
This really came as a surprise for me.
I thought the oneworld tie up, together with the restructuring plan would have lead to
a take over from IAG
I guess this is ruled out, for the time being.
But if this means that AB stays afloat, I´m happy.
I love Lufthansa but I don´t want them to have a semi monopoly
in Germany. Competition is always good.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4249 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7458 times:
BA has burned money on the German Market once already (dba) - I expect them to be very careful to do so again. One thing I see is that BER continues to be a little bit of everything, from the national airline of Mallorca to a one world feeder and now an Etihad feeder. Is this desperation or or a wise strategy?
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10695 posts, RR: 100 Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6424 times:
Quoting QF340500 (Thread starter): Etihad Airways to increase stake in airberlin to 29 per cent as part of a wide ranging strategic partnership
Does EY have rights to BER? Or would they have to drop another city a la EK?
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1): I don't really think that any of the big three Gulf airlines ( QR/EK/EY) are seriously looking at alliance membership.
Off all the alliances EY seems 'pre-disposed' to OneWorld. However, only QR seems truly interested in an alliance (Star) with any seriousness. EK's strategy would be hurt by joining an alliance, so they won't.
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8): One thing I see is that BER continues to be a little bit of everything, from the national airline of Mallorca to a one world feeder and now an Etihad feeder. Is this desperation or or a wise strategy?
AB finally consolidating to BER will help them tremendously. Having east and west feed at two different airports is not going to gain customers. It would be quicker to fly to FRA, CDG, AMS, or LHR and connect than fly into one Berlin airport, drive across town, and check back in at another airport.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1): Considering that they only recently moved away from QF to partner with Virgin Australia that doesn't seem overly likely ( to me, anyway)
That move away from QF surprised me. I almost wonder if this is EY stating hey BA/QF, you're too cozy. Let us play or we'll find alternatives... Then again, EY joining oneworld would naturally merge the partnership with QF.
I see EY going with OneWorld. However, there is zero advantage going that way until all the OneWorld bankruptcies 'shake out' and AA/EY form more agreements too.
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2): Looks like the survival strategy for airlines that are too small to survive is to get Gulf partners.
You mean like UA? If one 'stretches the definition' of Gulf partners to include TK, it is almost a requirement to partner with: EK/QR/EY/TK for regional access. This is a market that should have gone to the Indian airlines too... but the lack of 'oportunities to partner for flights not including an Indian airline at Indian airports' has severely constricted their growth.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6286 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Does EY have rights to BER? Or would they have to drop another city a la EK?
I believe UAE carriers combined (meaning EK plus EY) are restricted to 4 cities in Germany and since 4 are currently being served (FRA/MUC/HAM/DUS) no additional points can be added until the bilateral is liberalized.
Does EY have rights to BER? Or would they have to drop another city a la EK?
EY currently have rights to serve three German airports at unlimited frequency and seat number. They're currently using their rights to MUC, FRA and DUS. AB is also not really ''launching'' AUH flights, as much as it is moving its existing DXB flights to AUH.
This is clearly a move for EY to expand their market share in Germany. I would not be surprised if AB started flying to AUH from STR, HAM and maybe even HAJ on 738 equipment in the future.
One could just as easily say that EY is 'pre-disposed' towards Skyteam/Star/remaining independent of any alliance ( the last being the most likely in my opinion). What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5785 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14): What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?
You join an alliance to open your domestic network to international carriers and vice versa. EY doesn't have domestic traffic and therefore, I would assume: Other than the reduction of competition on certain routes, not much.
mikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5685 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14): One could just as easily say that EY is 'pre-disposed' towards Skyteam/Star/remaining independent of any alliance ( the last being the most likely in my opinion). What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?
Through Air Berlin, EY will gain immediate access to a broad and complementary European market, with outstanding connectivity options for customers of both airlines.
The deal opens EY's network to 33 million potential new customers. The two carriers generate a combined total of more than $9bn in revenues, carry more than 40 million passengers and employ 18,000 people.
Etihad will also provide up to $255m (£165m) in financing over the next five years to Germany's second largest airline.
Sounds like they're bringing quite alot to future Oneworld member Air Berlin and by consequence Oneworld...
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5655 times:
All of South East Asia can very elegantly be funneled through AUH-DUS/BER and then on to JFK/MIA on AB or possibly ORD if AA should start such a service. Connecting opportunities are abundant.
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5471 times:
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16): Sounds like they're bringing quite alot to future Oneworld member Air Berlin and by consequence Oneworld...
I'm sorry, but it stills seems to me that some posters are taking an equity relationship with a single airline which just happens to be a future member of a particular alliance and trying to extrapolate it into an alliance 'signal' of some sort.
I think this development is very significant for Air Berlin, but whether it has much bearing on any future EY relationship with other Oneworld members is yet to be seen.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Markam From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 277 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5289 times:
Quoting LOWS (Reply 13): I'll never forget the time they wanted to send me SZG-LPA-HAM! Took the train instead.
Did they really route you from Salzburg to Hamburg via Las Palmas, in the Canary Islands, or do you mean PMI, Palma de Mallorca airport, instead of LPA?
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10695 posts, RR: 100 Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5163 times:
Quoting something (Reply 12): EY currently have rights to serve three German airports at unlimited frequency and seat number. They're currently using their rights to MUC, FRA and DUS. AB is also not really ''launching'' AUH flights, as much as it is moving its existing DXB flights to AUH.
Is it 3 or 4? I'm just asking for clarification with post #11.
I agree that it is less 'launching' a new flight as re-aligning with a 'strategic partner' versus someone who just code shares.
Quoting something (Reply 12): I would not be surprised if AB started flying to AUH from STR, HAM and maybe even HAJ on 738 equipment in the future.
I assume the German limits are 3 (or 4) cities to the UAE? (Note, I'm asking to clarify this in my head.) I could see FRA, BER, STR, and then the 4th becomes iffy. FR would want to cut off AB with MUC (since AB is effectively downsizing MUC to 'nothing for LH to worry about').
If by '738 equipment' you mean the 738MAX, I agree. The distances would be a stretch for the 738.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14): What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?
In my opinion, all alliances will have to have a mid-east partner for regional feed. (Note, I include TK as a candidate in that list. An Indian airline could be included but only after India changes their bilaterals dramatically.)
For EY, it is 'secondary city' European feed. For the Alliance, it is one step further to acheiving '2-stop' connections to 99% of the world's population. I do not think of *any* of the mid-east carriers as they are today. For EY and QR, I envision their network once they are flying out of their rebuilt then 2-runway airports.
(In reference to EY and OneWorld vs. other alliances vs. no allinance.)
Their prior year efforts.
Star Alliance I eliminate as TK meets a *huge* fraction of the 'need' that EY would provide. I also state this as QR has been trying to 'allign with Start alliance' (although is a code share with almost anyone a la their competitors). Combined with AI/9W in India... I do not see EY bringing anything of significance to *A.
In my opinion, of the mid-east carriers, QR will bring the most to the 'benefits divided by costs equation (to the alliance)' for all the alliances. Since, in my opinion, they are likely to go towards *A, that cuts off what would be best for EY (*A) when one also considers TK, AI, and 9W's interests.
In fact, I'm not sure why QR is still aligned with *A. Of all the alliances, that alliance will have the most diluted impact in the region for their partners once an Indian airline is on board. IMHO, SkyTeam and OneWorld would offer more to their mid-east partner (even with IT in OneWorld).
Skyteam:
Skyteam needs to strengthen their Africa, mid-East, and Indian (subcontinent) membership. IMHO, they will provide the greatest benefit to the mid-east partner due to the lack of an identified Indian partner. While EY would strengthen them in the region, I'm still trying to get my mind around Saudia and their role in Skyteam. Now some of this plays into what the Virgin Airlines do, in Particular Virgin Australia. If Virgin joins Skyteam (or even just Virgin Australia), then my opinion would instantly change to EY in Skyteam.
Skyteam
OneWorld:
I agree with you that the Virgin Australia vs. QF distances EY from OneWorld. However, unless Virgin is going to form their own alliance with EY (or Skyteam)... It fills the greatest weakness I can identify in the OW network (mid-east) where there would be a large alliance/member benefit. While I realize IT is aligned with OneWorld, I do not have high hopes for their finances. By filling a large 'weakness' for the alliance, it benefits the alliance with revenue feed from the fastest growing (in terms of air travel) region. For EY, it would also be the revenue.
As already noted, EY is buying a huge chunk of OneWorld's new European network. I see EY complimenting BA (much more than QR or EK) *and* providing excellent connections for IB. EY has also in the past made overtures to OneWorld. While I realize that doesn't extrapolate to a certainty, it would help.
Note: I do not consider Gulf Air a serious contender for any alliance.
No alliance: EY is simply *not* growing fast enough to remain relevant against TK and EK without joining an alliance. AUH airport sees about a quarter of the traffic of DXB and barely over half the traffic of IST. Now, I make an assumption here. I assume that either AI or IT is going to fail. Once any large Indian airline fails, then 9W is going to have a *huge* opportunity for growth. It doesn't matter, for this discussion, if 9W officially joins *A or just code shares with enough *A; at that point *A is going to be very strong in the region (AI or no AI, do not forget TK). At that future date (post failed large Indian airline), QR and EY are going to receive a wake up call (after a few years). Since neither has the network to fully emulate the EK 'connection effect,' both will have to join an alliance or struggle to compete.
In my opinion, for mid-east alliances QR is in the drivers seat. EK has a model that wouldn't work if they joined an alliance. I realize QR is only about 40% larger than EY... But they are also expanding more agressively.
Long term, of the regions carriers, only the LCCs and EK have a viable strategy for avoiding an alliance. So EY could go OneWorld or Skyteam per my logic. Since joining an alliance doesn't prohibit prior code-shares... It could go either way and is dependent on AI/IT.
Aquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 208 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4975 times:
Quoting LOWS (Reply 13): Niki is definitely an LCC
Yest, probably the best of all. I love them.
And, BTW much better than AUA, all around. This said from a long term loyal LH/LX customer should mean something, go figure.
I hope the new alliance with EY will not disrupt the AB operations from the VIE node.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
tcm From Turkey, joined Jul 2010, 584 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4885 times:
BTW, Owners of Pegasus (Turkey) ESAS Holding are relegated to second largest shareholders of AB now that EY is in the game. Pegasus is a rising star in Turkey and I wonder whether EY will extend their interest towards Pegasus which would certainly offer some competition to TK.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4763 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20): Quoting something (Reply 12):
EY currently have rights to serve three German airports at unlimited frequency and seat number. They're currently using their rights to MUC, FRA and DUS. AB is also not really ''launching'' AUH flights, as much as it is moving its existing DXB flights to AUH.
Is it 3 or 4? I'm just asking for clarification with post #11.
I agree that it is less 'launching' a new flight as re-aligning with a 'strategic partner' versus someone who just code shares.
It's four for EK and three for EY as per the agreement.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20): I assume the German limits are 3 (or 4) cities to the UAE? (Note, I'm asking to clarify this in my head.) I could see FRA, BER, STR, and then the 4th becomes iffy. FR would want to cut off AB with MUC (since AB is effectively downsizing MUC to 'nothing for LH to worry about').
If by '738 equipment' you mean the 738MAX, I agree. The distances would be a stretch for the 738.
Etihad currently serves MUC, FRA and DUS in Germany maxes out their ''allowance''. Air Berlin has flown 738s to DXB in the past and so have several other airlines. Not sure what penalties they take, but apparently it's possible (and even loaded into the flight plans).
It would be good if AB could start non stop flights to AUH from German/Austrian/Swiss cities that are currently not serviced by EY and feed into the EY network. In reverse, EY could feed passengers onto AB flights to destinations they don't serves themselves either in Europe, or in North and Latin America. I hope their 787s will bring on-board product standards up to par with EY to make this an actual alternative for EY customers.
Personally, I would prefer connecting at DUS over FRA, CDG, LHR anytime.
LOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 985 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4739 times:
Quoting Markam (Reply 19):
Did they really route you from Salzburg to Hamburg via Las Palmas, in the Canary Islands, or do you mean PMI, Palma de Mallorca airport, instead of LPA?
Yes sorry, I couldn't remember the exact Spanish holiday destination.
Needless to say, it was a complete shambles of an idea. Hence, why I took the train.
25 lightsaber: Thank you. I was under the impression they were the A330s. However the 738 certainly has good 'non-winter' range. It is only during the winter that I
26 cmf: The how did SQ, KL and EI manage to join alliances? And there are others with no or essentially no domestic network.
27 Markam: No problem, I just wanted to make sure, because although as you point out a SZG-HAM routing via PMI would mean a big detour, since it would involve f
28 something: I'm not a tech expert, but QR flies A319/A320 on these routes on the regular so I would assume the 738 should be able to do the same? They serve many
29 mikey72: Oh I've just had a thought. If AB had been bought by BA they could have changed their name to ABBA !! They could have had a dancing 'queen' featuring
30 Viscount724: Virtually all carriers in alliances were interlining with all the other carriers in the same alliance before they joined the alliance. They didn't ha
31 Burkhard: The license for this would cost far more than AB shares currently are worth. As Air Berlin, they beter utilize "Preussens Gloria", since it is free t
32 r2rho: I definitely didn't see this one coming, nobody did. But we're just a-netters. The real question is: did IAG see this one coming? Because what most we
33 cmf: So not because of domestic networks. Which, apparently, is why they join alliances
34 mikey72: It's fair to assume that by the time BA get their first A380... Air Berlin, Etihad, Kingfisher and Latam will be members of Oneworld. I think I bette
35 lightsaber: The QR A319s are ACJs. In other words, they are equiped with belly tanks to give them much longer range. The 738 should have ~400nm more range than t
36 nomorerjs: ORD-BBI may actually happen! Probably not on AA metal though.
37 ADent: So how many cities from Germany can Air Berlin fly to AUH?
38 shamrock604: Apparently, EY has also confirmed it is still interested in a stake in Aer Lingus also!
39 Burkhard: That is why I asked if anybody knows the exact text. I found http://www.bgbl.de/Xaver/text.xav?bk...'bgbl296s1126.pdf'%5D&wc=1&skin=WC But do
40 lightsaber: The EY alliance! Probably. It also would explain the growth rate of EK in Germany... Lightsaber
41 something: Burkhard, while I can't provide you with the exact legal paragraph*, you can find more information in the following two links. Airliners.de is a rath
42 SQ325: The question is how many people are willing to fly to AUH in an AB 737 when they also can choose to use EY or fly via DXB or DOH and use an airline w
43 Aquila3: Well, that might be true for the business product. But I think that the average German holiday traveller would rather consider the AB service compare
44 ADent: I was wondering on the AB traffic rights, because EY could just invest in AB to get some widebodies to run the route. Esp if AB was not limited like
45 SQ325: From my understanding EY is just giving some 200mio credit plus their new stock values which is not enough to even cover 1/3 of ABs debt. So I don' t
46 dazeflight: ^ EY can't move to BER, that's the point to the agreement. Widebodies in the form of 787 jets are still ordered by AB (the press conference stated the
47 BMIFlyer: Etihad have today released a rather nice video about the tie up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evsb5ztDRtA
48 Burkhard: Thanks for sharing that - very interesting they notice, interpreting the pictures, that Air Berlin is about BER and PMI...
Sponsor Message: 
From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 146 posts, 
From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, 
From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4249 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10695 posts, 
Am I the only one who didn't see this coming? 
If one 'stretches the definition' of Gulf partners to include TK, it is almost a requirement to partner with: EK/QR/EY/TK for regional access. This is a market that should have gone to the Indian airlines too... but the lack of 'oportunities to partner for flights not including an Indian airline at Indian airports' has severely constricted their growth. 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, 
From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 985 posts, 
For EY and QR, I envision their network once they are flying out of their rebuilt then 2-runway airports. 
By filling a large 'weakness' for the alliance, it benefits the alliance with revenue feed from the fastest growing (in terms of air travel) region. For EY, it would also be the revenue. 
From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 208 posts, 
From Turkey, joined Jul 2010, 584 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
