Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9349 times:

In the late 1970s I noticed National really cut back. They dropped service to Boston,Philadelphia,Baltimore which were never really focus cities for National but more of a add on city,Their focus I think was New York City,Washington National to Florida,who could forget the milk runs that stopped in Norfolk,Charleston SC,Savanah GA before Florida. They really cut back there too.You didn't see as much intra Florida flights,Panama City Fl and Tallahassee got dropped. William Seawell thought buying National would be a watershed for Pan Am and turned out to be not so. If Pan Am did not buy National it would have ended up with Frank Lorenzo. I feel it just isn't South Florida without National,Eastern and Pan Am

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerjm777ual From UK - England, joined Nov 2011, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9311 times:

National airlines, along with PAN AM, is nearing it's LONG end. I'm gonna miss those brightly blue and silver 744F's and DC-8's.


Greetings from Dulles!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2996 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9275 times:

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 1):
National airlines, along with PAN AM, is nearing it's LONG end. I'm gonna miss those brightly blue and silver 744F's and DC-8's.

Not sure I understand your comments. The National Airlines that the OP is referring to has been gone for 31 years. And they sure didn't have 744Fs or blue and silver paint.


User currently offlinerjm777ual From UK - England, joined Nov 2011, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9271 times:

Oh i was thinking of the cargo airline!


http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...nal%20Airlines&distinct_entry=true



Greetings from Dulles!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2996 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9244 times:

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 3):
Oh i was thinking of the cargo airline!

And there was also the 757 operator out of LAS. But those aren't the REAL NA that the OP is referring to.

Think, "Fly me, I'm Barbara" (or something like that) or references to sun as he mentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(NA)


User currently offlinerjm777ual From UK - England, joined Nov 2011, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9230 times:

Oh i recognize that logo now! Thanks for the link.


Greetings from Dulles!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4429 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9102 times:

My favorite airline of all time!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Richard Vandervord


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Graham Dives



User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9031 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):

but they also added MIA-SJU, JFK-AMS, LAX-SEA, IAH-SEA......



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8995 times:

Thank you 727 Lover, I needed to mention they were focusing on longer routes such as what you mentioned,
Also their expansion to Europe from Florida like MIA-LHR,ORY(or was it CDG),FRA,AMS,ZRH, I am surprised they
did not try to get MAD.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8948 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1970s I noticed National really cut back. They dropped service to Boston,Philadelphia,Baltimore which were never really focus cities for National but more of a add on city,Their focus I think was New York City,Washington National to Florida,who could forget the milk runs that stopped in Norfolk,Charleston SC,Savanah GA before Florida. They really cut back there too.You didn't see as much intra Florida flights,Panama City Fl and Tallahassee got dropped.

The question I pose, and I honestly do not know the answer is this:

In the latter years of National, many cities and routes were dropped prior to the Pan Am merger in 1980. This was just after the passage of the airline deregulation act in 1978. I wonder how many of those cities/routes National was not permitted to drop under the regulated airline system. So many were dropped in the last year or so, it seems as though the airline may have been taking advantage of no longer being required to have CAB approval to drop cities/routes.

I don't know...just a thought.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4429 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8936 times:

Quoting PI767 (Reply 9):
In the latter years of National, many cities and routes were dropped prior to the Pan Am merger in 1980. This was just after the passage of the airline deregulation act in 1978. I wonder how many of those cities/routes National was not permitted to drop under the regulated airline system. So many were dropped in the last year or so, it seems as though the airline may have been taking advantage of no longer being required to have CAB approval to drop cities/routes.

Probably true.


User currently offlinelat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8904 times:

Long strikes and unreliable service marked the last few years even under regulation. They used to serve Providence but dropped that city as well toward the end. They chaced business away.

User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

Quoting lat41 (Reply 11):
They used to serve Providence but dropped that city as well toward the end.

It's funny you should mention National's service to Providence. I remember finding this in their September 1, 1977 timetable:

There was ONE daily flight to/from Providence.

The inbound flight was flight 60:

Depart LaGuardia: 7:00am
Arrive Providence: 7:42am

The outbound flight was flight 61:

Depart Providence: 8:10am
Arrive Kennedy: 8:54am
Depart Kennedy: 9:30am
Arrive Orlando: 11:50am
Depart Orlando: 12:15pm
Arrive Sarasota: 12:44pm

Not ONLY did the ONE flight in arrive from a different airport than the ONE flight out, but the ONE flight in also left too early for any connections.

So, basically, the ONLY place you could fly TO Providence from was LaGuardia. Outbound, you could fly to Kennedy and make connections to the rest of the National system.

One of the most bizarre things I can remember seeing in an airline timetable.

[Edited 2011-12-19 19:41:46]

User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8863 times:

One other comment about National's timetables: I HATED their route map! They clumped a bunch of cities together as one "dot" on the map:

http://www.departedflights.com/NA050179.html

Charleston and Savannah.... shown as one dot on the map.

Mobile and Pensacola...shown as one dot.

Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach...one dot.

Tampa, Sarasota and Fort Myers...one dot.

On earlier maps: Providence/Boston as one dot, Jacksonville and Daytona Beach were one dot, Mobile/Pensacola/Tallahassee/Pensacola....all ONE DOT!

Drove my crazy!

(Okay....rant over...lol)


User currently offlinelat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8861 times:

Quoting PI767 (Reply 12):
There was ONE daily flight to/from Providence.

That might have been after one of their strikes, when the amount of flights and the overal route system was already shrinking.
NA used to operate at least 3 per day. 2 LGAs and one JFK as I recall. I took a one stop through flight PVD LGA MIA a couple times in the 70's. I would deliberately not come back that route as I wanted to fly NA #98, a 747 MIA JFK and connect on to PVD in the evening.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8852 times:

Quoting lat41 (Reply 14):
I would deliberately not come back that route as I wanted to fly NA #98, a 747 MIA JFK and connect on to PVD in the evening.

Spoken like a true airline enthusiast.  


User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8851 times:

speaking of bizarre I remember in the late 1970s there was one flight that passed through PHL but not vice versa.I saw a lot of that with National in the end.It's a mystery to me.

User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8831 times:

Another odd one from 1977.... I can only assume this must have been some sort of repositioning flight for a charter or something:

The lone flight out of Atlanta:

From Atlanta to San Francisco:

Flight 201
Depart Atlanta 11:30pm
Arrive San Francisco 1:12am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

From San Francisco to Atlanta:

Flight 202
Depart San Francisco 9:15pm
Arrive Atlanta 4:30am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

Anyone have any knowledge or speculation as to what that was all about?

[Edited 2011-12-19 19:48:34]

User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8823 times:

I remember as a child in about 1974 flying on their DC10's from SAN-LAX. Flew on "Tammy" like 5 times.

User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8796 times:

Quoting PI767 (Reply 17):
Another odd one from 1977.... I can only assume this must have been some sort of repositioning flight for a charter or something:

The lone flight out of Atlanta:

From Atlanta to San Francisco:

Flight 201
Depart Atlanta 11:30pm
Arrive San Francisco 1:12am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

From San Francisco to Atlanta:

Flight 202
Depart San Francisco 9:15pm
Arrive Atlanta 4:30am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

Anyone have any knowledge or speculation as to what that was all about?

In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

1974 system map showing SFO-ATL

http://www.departedflights.com/NA070174.html


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8793 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):
In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

Very interesting! Thanks for the information!


User currently offlinelat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8792 times:

Check out "The Anatomy of an Airline" It was a hard cover book which chronicaled National Airlines from 1934 when the carrier was born until 1970, when the the book was written. Author was Brad Williams.

User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8777 times:

National wasn't cutting back flights at all in the late 1970s - they were finally able to unload some of the mutli-stop intercity service they had flown for decades. I lived in Miami then and they were hiring pilots, flight attendants for an overall increase in non-stop service.

More than any other major airline, National flew the shortest legs you can imagine in a 727. I flew from FMY to JAX in 1974 in a 727-200 stopping in SRQ, TPA, MCO and DAB! Another local service was JAX-TLH-PNS-MOB-MSY-IAH. Or how about PHL-DCA-PHF-ORF-CHS-SAV-JAX-PBI-MIA!

National route map, 1958

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/na58/na58-1.jpg

National route map, 1962

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/na62/na62-2.jpg

National route map, last schedule before PAA merger, 1979

http://www.departedflights.com/NA050179.html


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8740 times:

Quoting lat41 (Reply 21):
Check out "The Anatomy of an Airline" It was a hard cover book which chronicaled National Airlines from 1934 when the carrier was born until 1970, when the the book was written. Author was Brad Williams.

Funny, I was just re-reading this book when this thread came up! One of my favorite airline history books, reads like Robert Serling's works.

National facts: Only U.S. major airline that never flew the DC-3. They had Lockheed Lodestars (1940 to 1959).

1958 - First airline to fly jets on U.S. domestic service (IDL-MIA). Boeing 707s dry-leased from Pan Am (National flight crews and cabin attendants).

1970 - Third U.S. airline to operate Trans-Atlantic services (MIA-LHR) with DC-8-54s.


User currently offlineswabrian From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 299 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8502 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):

In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

1974 system map showing SFO-ATL

http://www.departedflights.com/NA070....html

Likewise, the CAB gave DL a SFO-MIA/FLL nonstop flight to compete with NA. DL operated this flight on Fridays only with a DC-8-51. In 1977/78 while I was working in OAK for DL, the flight would originate in OAK, fly across the Bay to SFO, and then nonstop to MIA before terminating in FLL.


25 WA707atMSP : Both of these route awards were part of the infamous 1960's "Southern Transcontinental" route case, which had some of the more nonsensical awards eve
26 JFKPurser : I flew "Christine", a DC-8-61 LAX-MSY-TPA in 1973. I remember may different Y class compartments throughout, and each one had a club arrangement at th
27 BoeingGuy : That was always an odd-ball route and looked funny on NA's route map, since it was the only place they served ATL from as mentioned previously. IIRC,
28 drerx7 : Yep, Pan Am acquired them and operated the mini hub at IAH for a little while. Around the same time span Eastern ran the moonlight hub with AB3s out
29 Post contains links milesrich : WA707, I hate to correct you, if you are referring to NA's SFO-ATL and DL's SFO-MIA routes. Neither was part of the Southern Trancontinental Route Ca
30 WA707atMSP : Miles, you are 100% right, and I'm glad you corrected me. I believe the official name of the route case that was resolved in 1969 was the "reopened S
31 Post contains images hiflyer : With NA from 74 till PanAm....DCA and SFO...being able to shed some smaller cities allowed longer stage length flights and as a result NA took on used
32 Post contains links N14AZ : Thanks for starting this thread - brings back good memories since NA sent a lot of rare birds to FRA. I saw many NA-747-pictures in the past but recen
33 N62NA : That was not the National Airlines company that is what this topic is discussing. I guess there have been several airlines over the years that used t
34 jetstar : I believe that was Northeast Airlines, not National Airlines, Northeast Airlines was bought by Delta which allowed Delta to become a major player in
35 BoeingGuy : No, he was correct. That was National Airlines that leased the Pan Am 707 to be the first domestic jet service in the US. You might be mistaking that
36 hiflyer : was NA with the original 707-121's first batch to Pan Am. DL took NE later...after the introduction of the 727-200 and L1011. I remember the GOP pres
37 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Following from National's October 26, 1958 timetable:
38 ozark1 : I was enamored with National Airlines when I was a kid. I used to draw the Sun King logo over and over instead of listening to the teacher. (this was
39 doulasc : I think Northeast leased a TWA 707 for its first jet service in 1959 from New York to Florida.
40 type-rated : I always wanted to try National but never had the chance. What was their typical onboard service like in the mid to late 70's?
41 maxpower1954 : Yes, and Airways magazine ran a series of articles recently on the history of Northeast which discussed the 707 operation in detail. It was similar t
42 milesrich : Also a good story is the unique arrangement between National and Pan Am that is referred to in that ad. George Baker, in order to put one over on East
43 WA707atMSP : I checked my copy of Eastern's 1968 annual report, and the exact name of the route case resolved in 1969 was the "Southern Tier Investigation". Once
44 swabrian : That was the first of a double whammy for EA during that period. Rickenbacker had early delivery positions lined up on the DC-8 for the -10, but he d
45 Post contains images N62NA : Well, at that time I was just heading into my teens, but as I recall it was friendly, and the food in coach was good. But then again, during those da
46 milesrich : Much is made of this, but the only routes that Delta competed with Eastern on at the time that could accommodate or were scheduled with the DC-8 were
47 milesrich : Was it not in this group of awards that United was given MEM & HSV to the West Coast? A route structure they later abandoned when they generally
48 type-rated : One thing I always thought was strange about National is their route map. It seems like they just stayed with somewhat coastal cities flying mainly ar
49 hiflyer : Until deregulation of routes in the late 70's all domestic routes were controlled and distributed by application to the US Govt.
50 WA707atMSP : National applied several times to extend their routes to the US Midwest and the Rocky Mountain states, but their applications were never approved by
51 swabrian : In the March 1, 1960 DL timetable, DL was flying DC-8s to ORD, IDL, ATL (of course), MIA, HOU, DTW, and DAL. Keep in mind that other than NYC to Flor
52 maxpower1954 : National's history is one of the most interesting of any major airline. The route system developed into a north/south/east/west structure with Florid
53 Post contains links maxpower1954 : Another National fact! First major airline to operate scheduled helicopter services in 1954 with Sikorsky S-55s. Routes were in the Miami area and to
54 milesrich : Brian, I must inform you that Delta Air Lines could not carry passengers from NYC to Florida until they purchased Northeast Airlines in 1972, some 13
55 Post contains links ItalianFlyer : I like how they actually used that observation in this mid 60s marketing piece. (note the legible route map, not the lumped up format discussed above
56 zippyjet : I was going to ask about National in ATL. I didn't realize they just flew to SFO. I figured they flew ATL-MIA to go against Eastern and Delta's monop
57 Tomassjc : The flights were operated in full Pan American colors. Aircraft were leased short term. Winter 1958/59 and 1959/60. Tom SJC
58 Post contains links maxpower1954 : George Baker, NAL's founder and president wanted the Boeing 720, but lost the early delivery slots to a Central American airline. Douglas didn't know
59 N62NA : Was that a bit of a crosswind landing I detected?!
60 maxpower1954 : Yes it was, and a very nice example of one. While not as bad as the 707, you could easily drag an outboard engine with the improper technique. The nos
61 n5014k : A few thoughts. I appreciate the film clip showing the National DC-8. I wonder if anyone has gathered a list of such clips. I know, for instance, in D
62 Post contains links maxpower1954 : McDonnell220's YouTube channel (he's the guy who posted "The Bell Boy" clip) has tons of other scenes of airliners in movies. He doesn't call them by
63 Post contains links and images zippyjet : MAX: Thank you for the you tube link! I remember that section of MIA like the names of my 2 short bus kitties. Meaning, I remember the terminal layout
64 milesrich : What Central American Airline ordered 720's early on? Avianca had 720-059B's but those were not early deliveries. Boeing only sold 65 non fan powered
65 sunking737 : Western Airlines had many 720B. I don't know the number, but my dad worked for them. We flew back to MSP from LAX on the 720B & 707's. 1960's and
66 maxpower1954 : Good question Milesrich - that story about George Baker and the 720 order came directly from "The Anatomy of an Airline" (1970) which is the best his
67 n5014k : Hi Maxpower. Actually my user name is the registration of a National Airlines L-188 Electra, the plane I took my first flight on in 1965. Thanks for
68 maxpower1954 : You're welcome N5014K. Actually, the link IS to National Electra N5014K at PBI in 1965- the very one you rode on![Edited 2011-12-30 09:46:47]
69 WALmsp : Western had 30 720s. N93141 Boeing 720-047B c/n 18061 1961-1969 N93142 Boeing 720-047B c/n 18062 1961-1974 N93143 Boeing 720-047B c/n 18063 1961-1968
70 milesrich : that is correct, and then Braniff only took four of the original five, one going to the FAA, but picked up airplanes from Aer Lingus, both on short t
71 Post contains images WA707atMSP : Earlier on this thread, there was some discussion about how serious the problems caused by EA's delays in receiving DC-8s were. In 1979, Robert J. Ser
72 milesrich : WA707, you always write well thought out historical posts. I own both of these books, and I have read these same analyses that were written years aft
73 zippyjet : I wonder if anyone at Eastern suggested or approached Captain Eddie with the idea of leasing jets the way National did from Pan Am?
74 ghifty : To be fair, they didn't do that. Their advertising agency did.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
National Airines (Sun King) Reminencses posted Mon Sep 11 2000 22:33:54 by Tom in NO
A Question For The National Sun King Buffs... posted Mon Oct 27 2003 00:16:27 by John
The End For Ural Airlines Tu-154 posted Fri Oct 14 2011 05:01:16 by SIBILLE
Info On The New National Airlines? posted Fri Dec 3 2010 14:39:08 by 747400sp
The End Of Skyway Airlines 328Jet... posted Tue Feb 26 2008 09:38:35 by Markjs
Air China - The New King Of The Airlines? posted Thu Aug 30 2007 21:09:38 by Readytotaxi
The Official National Airlines Rememberance Thread posted Mon Jun 5 2006 04:41:16 by Mirrodie
The End Of Zantop Airlines posted Wed Jun 8 2005 18:22:09 by KYIPpilot
National Airlines (the Original), What If...... posted Wed Apr 13 2005 03:37:00 by Thomasphoto60
National Sun King Livery posted Fri Aug 13 2004 06:14:30 by Zippyjet