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3 Dead In NJ Plane Crash  
User currently onlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 679 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11678 times:

This is being reported by NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/ny...n-i-287-in-new-jersey.html?_r=1&hp

Small excerpt from the article:

Quote:
A small plane crashed on Tuesday morning on Interstate 287 in northern New Jersey, killing at least three people, “with the possibility of a fourth or fifth” death, the New Jersey State Police said.


38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11683 times:

A news video is available here: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/p...uolonuhreja/art-1288436736252.html (just ignore the Finnish news text, and wait for the advertisement to pass through)

User currently offlineEADC8 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11580 times:

Looks to be N731CA. Bound for Dekalb-Peachtree. RIP.


721 722 731 732 733 73G 741 742 744 752 753 762 764 DC8 DC9 MD80 DC10 L1011 A300 A319 A320 A332
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5576 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11393 times:

Death toll now confirmed to be five.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlinefanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1943 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11377 times:

I just heard about this one as well. At least three people on board, possibly two more. From the eyewitness accounts, it sounds absolutely horrific. Fortunately, when the plane impacted the busy US Highway 287, nobody on the ground was hurt! This one really hits home, as I live just miles from the crash site, which is in Morristown, NJ.

http://www.news12.com/index.jsp

Access to the area is very limited because of emergency activity, so I would not recommend photography. Further, there is very little to see, as there is little left of the plane. Sounds like there was some kind of in-flight structural failure, according to several eyewitness accounts; what could have caused that will have to await NTSB invistigation.

Very, very sad news. I am just glad that by some miracle, nobody on the ground was killed or hurt.



The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11361 times:

Already posted

Plane Crash On 287 In Morristown NJ (by ScarletHarlot Dec 20 2011 in Civil Aviation)

RIP



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinefanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1943 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11328 times:

Quoting EADC8 (Reply 2):
Looks to be N731CA. Bound for Dekalb-Peachtree. RIP
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N731CA

According to FlightAware and NJ.com



The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently offlineaajfksjubklyn From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11293 times:

Coincidently, Jeff (the pilot) was advisor to Delta Airlines during the meger.. Terrible tragedy.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10940 times:

Just saw one of my facebook friend's status: "Please pray for my good friends XXXX and XXXX as they mourn the loss or their son/stepson's mother, stepfather, baby brother and Aunt who were killed in a plane crash this morning. God bless their family and friends thru this difficult time"

I think this might be the same crash... we all live close to PDK.

RIP  

Edit: Names were taken out

[Edited 2011-12-20 12:15:21]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10781 times:

So sad, RIP. My sister is a teacher in NYC and previously had one of the children in her homeroom  

User currently offlinechrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4011 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10440 times:

Is five people a lot of weight for a single-engine plane like the one involved here?

User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1436 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10381 times:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 10):

Is five people a lot of weight for a single-engine plane like the one involved here?


No the TBM is quite capable of the load. It is a single engine turboprop with a cabin akin to a king air. Problem is it has one engine. In the event of a failure you will be landing with a small margin for error. I would be interested to see how much experience and recent flight time the pilot had.


User currently offlinemicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 773 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10322 times:

So sad, especially this time of year. RIP to the victims. Wonder what we will learn. IE, pilot error, maintenance, design issue, engine failure etc. Or some combo of those. Is it me, or does the TBM seem to have more accidents than the PC-12?


S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3517 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10288 times:

Quoting fanofjets (Reply 4):
Sounds like there was some kind of in-flight structural failure, according to several eyewitness accounts

...which are rarely reliable. I read the Times article, and one of the witnesses said that the plane was "sputtering" at the tree tops, trailing smoke, then she heard an "explosion", then suddenly both wing parts and tree branches came raining down. Then she saw it go over the wall by 287, then saw a bigger explosion.

It's obviously too early to draw conclusions, but I think it's as likely as not that it was a structural failure. It sounds to me like the structural failure happened after it hit a tree.

Of course, reports of "engine trouble" almost always turn out to be wrong too, but the trail of black smoke is a little more specific and seems to point more towards some kind of mechanical issue. I'd be interested to see a map of the flight path but it wouldn't surprise me if he was trying to make it to MMU.

btw I grew up in this area and still drive that highway pretty often; it's a miracle no one on the ground was killed. You could throw a rock in any direction and you'd hit a car on that road.

[Edited 2011-12-20 15:03:25]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10255 times:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 10):

Is five people a lot of weight for a single-engine plane like the one involved here?

Well if my FB friend was correct, one victim was a "baby brother." Who knows how old that is, but probably brought the weight down a lot



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedwcontroller From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10191 times:

You can hear the ATC leading up to it here. Reports of extreme icing at 14000 and moderate up to FL180.

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index....=dlattach;topic=9661.0;attach=6554

[Edited 2011-12-20 15:25:26]


Best phrase to hear at the airport - "All standbys have been cleared and may board at this time"
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7204 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10143 times:

Spacecadet

Are you saying that you think the crash was caused by structural failure or that the structural failure took place when it crashed.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3517 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9812 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 16):
Are you saying that you think the crash was caused by structural failure or that the structural failure took place when it crashed.

I'm saying there's no evidence yet one way or another, but if the media's going to listen to the reports of witnesses to make their conclusions, then let's really listen to those reports and see what they're actually saying. The witness the Times interviewed seemed to see the plane all the way down, and she said it was smoking, flying along the tree tops, then she heard an explosion, tree and wing parts rained down, then it went over the fence by the highway and then there was another explosion.

To me that sounds like there was no structural failure until it hit a tree, but there may have been an existing mechanical fault that had caused it to be flying that low. At least if you believe this witness, who should be considered as credible (or not) as any other.

Or it could have been icing too, and maybe she didn't really see "grey smoke engulfing the plane", maybe she just saw regular exhaust.

I am just saying witnesses are often wrong, but if you're going to use them as a basis for a theory, as the media always does, then they should at least really listen to what they're saying and not make stuff up that doesn't even match the eyewitness accounts. This reminds me of when AA587 happened (obviously on a different scale) and a lot of news reports were saying it sounded like some sort of engine problem (or sabotage of the engines) because a lot of the witnesses said the engines had fallen off the plane before it crashed. Well yeah, but they also said the tail detached first! To me it's just lazy reporting; you don't need to know anything about aviation to just really listen to the story someone is telling and form a picture from that information that's at least accurate as far as the story being told is concerned.

[Edited 2011-12-20 16:24:49]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9631 times:

Quoting fanofjets (Reply 4):
Fortunately, when the plane impacted the busy US Highway 287, nobody on the ground was hurt! This one really hits home, as I live just miles from the crash site, which is in Morristown, NJ.

I spend a lot of time in NJ and am familiar with the area the crash occurred as well. Very sad news. An accident of any kind is sad especially when there are fatalities.



RUSH
User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9098 times:
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Pilot/owner used to be a colleague of mine many years ago. A disciplined and very hard working man, he had all the characteristics of an excellent pilot. Later he worked as an investment banker on the Delta/Northwest merger.
What a tragedy... The entire family wiped out.



Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1436 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9015 times:

Quoting dwcontroller (Reply 15):
You can hear the ATC leading up to it here. Reports of extreme icing at 14000 and moderate up to FL180.

Extreme and moderate icing are not conditions ANY airplane are designed to fly in indefinitely. FIKI certification is only to get you safely OUT of icing once you encounter. Droning along in an airplane in those conditions is not a wise thing to do. However, many pilots don't understand the dangers of continued FIKI if their airplane is FIKI certified.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 16):
Are you saying that you think the crash was caused by structural failure or that the structural failure took place when it crashed.

Pure speculation but if the airplane encountered a significant ice build up there is a good chance the uncontrolled descent would have over sped the airplane and resulted in a shedding of pieces of the airplane on the way down. So it may have had structural failure prior to hitting the ground but it would have been the result of a loss of controlled flight.

Sad crash and the details are yet to be known. There have been plenty of instances where and Auto Pilot has masked the load on the controls of the icing event. The pilot not realizing the limitations of FIKI and the hazards of flying in those conditions are brought into the flying loop very quickly when the A/P disconnects and they crash. Even the Roselawn ATR crew was guilty of this condition.


User currently offlinevirginvsbritish From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8850 times:

So sad, RIP all victims of this tragedy.  


I want a 787 for Christmas, thank you.
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10992 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7734 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 13):
btw I grew up in this area and still drive that highway pretty often; it's a miracle no one on the ground was killed. You could throw a rock in any direction and you'd hit a car on that road.

Unless the traffic saw the plane coming down and reacted, which is what I'm thinking may have happened. It fits the evidence, in that no one on the ground was hit. If you saw a plane coming down towards you (smoking or not) you'd hit the brakes.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7598 times:

Here is a link to an article from a New Jersey newspaper (Hackensack Record/Herald News group) with some later info (published on line around 9 PM Tuesday): http://www.northjersey.com/news/morr...rthern_New_Jersey_.html?c=y&page=1

Seems like the wings iced over, it dropped to the ground, over 17,000 ft., in 70 seconds, with experts suggesting 'rime' ice, mainly on the leading edges of the wings, horizontal stabilizer and did so very quickly, rapidly ruining the lift. It apparently hit the ground hard, and with the suggested debris field, it might have partially broke apart in it's dive to earth. Reminds me of the AA Eagle ATR crash of a number of years ago in Illinois. Other factors could be winds at that level of cruising flight. The remains of the aircraft will be brought to a facility in Delaware per the news reports for further investigation. It left a trail of debris of nearly 1/2 mile. What a horrible way to die. RIP.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7379 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 23):
Reminds me of the AA Eagle ATR crash of a number of years ago in Illinois.

Major similarity is that the TBM has a deicing boot, much like the ATR. If the similar effect occurred here, he could have stalled out and been unable to recover.


25 Post contains images ThreeIfByAir : The WSJ and others are indicating that "pieces of aircraft" are scattered over a 1/2 mile area. One news outlet indicated they included pieces of the
26 rampart : My wife's colleague at work saw it outside their office, said a plane "was doing loops and rolls, high up, any report of a crash?". Sure enough, minut
27 Post contains links anamericanin : MSNBC article indicates that all of the passengers, as well as the dog, perished. RIP.
28 idlewild : My sincerest condolences to the families of the victims: I thought most of today's aircraft, especially turbine based, had anti-icing properties to th
29 Post contains links Revelation : While layman's terminology is not precise, wouldn't "loops and rolls" be more consistent with an in-flight breakup? I've done my share of loops and r
30 EasternSon : My wife got on RT 287 yesterday and immediately came to a stop. She thought it was either construction or another vehicle accident, which are both com
31 jetstar : I would like to explain how the deicers work, on airliners, they are known as anti ice, where the leading edges are heated with engine bleed air and
32 CODC10 : IIRC, the TBM only has boots on its leading edges. I do not believe it has wing anti-ice installed (bleed air or electric heat).
33 mcdu : If you leave the transportation to a professional pilot that does his job for a living versus a Banker that dabbles in flying an airplane your travel
34 DiamondFlyer : Or TKS, as many GA aircraft have now for anti-ice. Great system, would much prefer to have it over boots. -DiamondFlyer
35 dashman : You are correct pneumatic deice equipment works very well if used properly and the accumulation of ice ice doesn't exceed what the aircraft was certif
36 tjwgrr : ------------------------------------ "...Charlie Alpha we'll let you know what happens when we get in there and, ah, yeah if we can go straight throu
37 canoecarrier : I'm almost with you here, but that's a little much of an overstatement for me. Would you get rid of the GA community altogether except for profession
38 Mir : It's also worth remembering that "moderate" is a relative term. If you've got a plane with some good de-icing capability, or just an aerodynamic shap
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