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FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11  
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2565 posts, RR: 53
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8666 times:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ow-u-s-agency-says.html?cmpid=yhoo

Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules. Any guesses ahead of time?

HAL


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineboeing727 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8662 times:

So, what is going to happen to the cargo folks I wonder?

Boeing727


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8619 times:

Quoting HAL (Thread starter):
Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules. Any guesses ahead of time?

HAL

I guess we ain't gonna like it. While I am all for better rest rules I am not for working up to 10 hours unaugmented. I have zero faith in the government to not bungle anything at this point.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8524 times:

Quoting HAL (Thread starter):
Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules. Any guesses ahead of time?
Quoting boeing727 (Reply 1):
So, what is going to happen to the cargo folks I wonder?

Here is a very good article in the Louisville paper, home of the UPS Worldport

http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...S?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|p


Some of the comments made by UPS would be laughable, if the company wasn't so powerful at lobbying the gov't.


"UPS has argued it’s wrong to apply one-size-fits-all rules to cargo and passenger carriers because they are so different — with cargo planes flying mostly at night while passenger flights are largely daytime and put so many more lives into the air."

Yes, who cares about the lives of the crew or people on the ground.


"UPS says its 2,600 pilots have gotten used to flying at night and sleeping by day"


"The night-time restrictions would particularly affect UPS, the company said — causing it to have to hire extra pilots and install new sleeping facilities on some planes"

Current rest facilities on UPS 767s, required on flights with a 3rd crewmember (over 8 hours) consist of a jumpseat. Or the floor. They already bought off their local FAA office on this one, while other carriers provide more adequate quarters such as a crew bunk or business class style seat.

This from a company making almost $5 billion per year.



FLYi
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13268 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7954 times:
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I thought most of their profit was ground ops?

Any which way, this is an improvement. Ideal?    But certainly an improvement.

Lightsaber

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...-at-tired-airline-pilots-/589727/1

And another summary:
Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):
This from a company making almost $5 billion per year.

Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3299 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 7850 times:

Quoting HAL (Thread starter):
Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules.

Yes, it all the evil industries fault.   

Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip? Or will it allow them to continue to sleep on a red-eye or in the noisy crew room, only to report later that day?

There's responsibility on both sides of this issue.


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2706 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7762 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip?

What's the difference between them and pilot who spends all day doing something with their kids and spouse before an 8PM report time to fly to South America?

You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3706 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7723 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip? Or will it allow them to continue to sleep on a red-eye or in the noisy crew room, only to report later that day?

That's a very good question and a key point in the Colgan incident. IIRC, the co-pilot lived in Washington state and commuted to her domicile in Newark. She had spent the entire night before commuting on a cargo carrier from her home on the west coast to Newark and then ended up sleeping in the break room at EWR until her first flight on the morning of the incident. How are they going to legislate their way around this one?

Flying hours themselves are a very small facet of this issue.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.

I agree, but that's the point here. The government is citing Colgan as the reason for these new laws when these laws wouldn't have prevented Colgan from happening in the first place.



PHX based
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2565 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7676 times:

The rules are out: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...-cargo-carriers-1-.html?cmpid=yhoo

Unfortunately, the FAA exempted cargo airlines from the rules. I guess the pilots of those planes and the people underneath them aren't worth as much as the crews & passengers of regular airliners. Look at the article; the cargo airlines complain about the 'high cost' and burden if the rules had been applied to them. Since the cargo airlines are by far the most profitable in the industry, it's obvious that it was just political pressure to keep those profits, not an actual danger of going bankrupt that prevented them from having the rules applied to them too.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Yes, it all the evil industries fault.

Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip? Or will it allow them to continue to sleep on a red-eye or in the noisy crew room, only to report later that day?

There's responsibility on both sides of this issue.

I never said there wasn't responsibility. In fact, we have a huge responsibility to arrive rested at the beginning of our trips. This legislation is all about what happens after that point, since the scheduling of rest periods between flights is something the pilots don't control.

The problem of commuting pilots being fatigued is real, as evidenced by the Colgan crash. It is, however, a problem that the vast majority of pilots avoid by arriving well before a trip. Remember, it's our butts in the seats too, as well as the passengers. We don't have a death wish, and want to get back to our families just as much as the passengers do. The Colgan crash was a warning to the few who pushed the envelope, as well as those of us who can keep an eye on our co-workers for signs of fatigue.

You have to realize though, that the airline that opens & closes pilot bases every six months is responsible too, as no pilot can afford to move that often. Sometimes commuting is the only option short of bankruptcy. Given the low pay many regional pilots make, even living in a low-cost location and commuting puts them close to the poverty level. Now, don't reply to that statement with something like 'they chose that career'. Yes, we did. And we know the reality of beginning pilot pay. We're not complaining - only stating the practical results of how we have to live under those conditions.

Commuting is unavoidable for some pilots, and a choice for others. For me personally, I've never seen an abuse of commuting in all my years in this industry. If I did, I'd make sure it stopped. With the new rules, we as passenger pilots can be assured we'll have a better chance of arriving at our flights in the middle of the trips more rested than before. Now, we need to see if we can include all pilots in these common-sense regulations.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
There's responsibility on both sides of this issue.

The pilot ALWAYS had a ton of responsibility. A couple screw up and the government thinks it has to take action to make itself look good.


These rules do nothing to prevent another Buffalo Colgan commuting scenario and someone in one of the press releases even says it. A pilot is supposed to be responsible enough to show up to work well rested.

This is government and media overreaction. There are a couple good things in the rule, but overall its just a show for the public.



My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlineAeroBlogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7633 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 7):

That's a very good question and a key point in the Colgan incident. IIRC, the co-pilot lived in Washington state and commuted to her domicile in Newark. She had spent the entire night before commuting on a cargo carrier from her home on the west coast to Newark and then ended up sleeping in the break room at EWR until her first flight on the morning of the incident. How are they going to legislate their way around this one?

They seem to be trying to target this with the "fit for duty" rule. However, as I argued on my blog, the rule doesn't have any teeth and will pretty much be irrelevant.

That said, tackling flying hours is a start, and it is certainly better than nothing being done at all...



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7575 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
For me personally, I've never seen an abuse of commuting in all my years in this industry. If I did, I'd make sure it stopped

Yeah? What would you do? Specifics please



My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7562 times:

Would these rules have prevented Colgan from happening? Probably not. However, does that mean they should be implemented? Absolutely. The issue is what happens when pilots have actually started their trip. Do you want your pilot to be flying his seventh leg on your flight at 8 pm when he came on duty at 6 am? Just the amount of cycles flown in that time (and there are airlines that will schedule crews this way) will wear out even the most seasoned pilots.

What has happened in recent years is that regional airlines have scheduled their crews to the absolute max, and it has caused a lot of problems. People forget about the Mesa plane in Hawaii that overflew its destination when the pilot fell asleep. At the time, the way Mesa was scheduling crews was insane. And the thing that irks me is that Crew Schedulers often have no knowledge of aviation, and they firmly believe that if its legal its safe, insisting on getting a Chief Pilot involved when a person calls fatigue. This is exactly what led to the Shuttle America 170 incident in CLE. These are two incidents that while they weren't fatal, could have been prevented with these new rules. Dispatchers are not allowed to be scheduled for over 10 hours of duty, there is no reason pilots should be either in my opinion.

As for the Cargo carriers, I think the FAA is making a mistake by exempting them, but I do think there should have been slight differences to reflect the nature of cargo flying.


User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3424 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7510 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):
Would these rules have prevented Colgan from happening? Probably not. However, does that mean they should be implemented? Absolutely

Exactly. Even if the new rules don't really address the Colgan crash that got the ball rolling on this, at first glance these new rules seem to be an improvement (safety wise) in almost all areas.

How these rules will actually effect schedules and company work rules of course remains to be seen.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlinethrufru From Marshall Islands, joined Feb 2009, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7484 times:

Heck, all I know is that when I read the synopsis on the FAA's website, I couldn't believe it. For those of us in supplementals, it was like hitting the lottery. No more 16 hour duty days (let alone 19). No more 8 hours from when I walk off the plane to when I walk back on. 8 real hours behind a hotel room door! No more being on 1 1/2 hour call out 24 hours a day, 6 days in a row.

We were expecting the worst and came up with the best (if they stay intact). I do wonder, though, why cargo was exempted. I completely disagree with that one.

All pilots, all operations, one set of rules.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3546 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

This is a home run! Finally ends the blantant unsafe scheduling at many of the airlines (especially the regionals)

User currently offlineloggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6669 times:

The most annoying part of this whole thing is that the revenue and profits being earned by the front line employees are being put in to the company coffers and being used directly against those who worked for the revenue. That's how the companies pay for lobbyists.

It's so obvious to see how the NPRM that came out last year has been completely watered down in favor of the Company lobbyists. As ever in Washington, money talks.

Safety first, after money.



There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21691 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6670 times:

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 9):
There are a couple good things in the rule, but overall its just a show for the public.

I wouldn't call a requirement for the opportunity to get eight hours sleep a show (though I think it might be a bit unrealistic if you've only got 10 hour overnights). Nor would I call reduced duty days for increased number of legs a show. Yeah, the whole "fitness for duty" thing is a facade without much behind it, but there's a lot of good stuff in the new rules. It's just a shame it'll take two years to fully implement - we need these tomorrow.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineloggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
It's just a shame it'll take two years to fully implement - we need these tomorrow.

Agreed. I would've been ok with a 6-12 month implementation. They aren't that drastic of a change. I'm almost betting most companies won't even start to think about the implications and an implementation plan until this time next year.



There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6593 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
What's the difference between them and pilot who spends all day doing something with their kids and spouse before an 8PM report time to fly to South America?

You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.

But you can. You could say a pilot cannot commute X number of hours if he or she will be in charge of a plane within X hours after commute. You can control off-duty activities somewhat.


On an irrelevant note, what are the rules for private jets? What do pilots flying a Gulfstream from New York to Beijing do? They carry a relief pilot?



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2565 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6506 times:

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 11):
Quoting HAL (Reply 8): For me personally, I've never seen an abuse of commuting in all my years in this industry. If I did, I'd make sure it stopped
Yeah? What would you do? Specifics please

I'd do the same thing for any pilot not safe to work; tell them what I see, and suggest they call in sick. Same goes for someone I suspect may be over the legal alcohol limit. If they're not safe, tell them. It's amazing what will happen when someone else points out things like this, as the veil of self-denial is removed. If they refuse (especially in the alcohol case), there's more that can be done too, from bringing in other pilots, to calling the chief pilot.

Quoting Grid (Reply 19):
Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):What's the difference between them and pilot who spends all day doing something with their kids and spouse before an 8PM report time to fly to South America?

You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.

But you can. You could say a pilot cannot commute X number of hours if he or she will be in charge of a plane within X hours after commute. You can control off-duty activities somewhat.

What would you do with a pilot that lives five hours away by car, with a 7am show time? Are they not allowed to drive to work, since they'll have been commuting for many hours, and doing all that starting at 2am? What about the pilot that lives a 30 minute flight away? Are they not allowed to commute in the day of a flight? Which would be more restful for the pilot - the 5-hour drive, or 30 minute flight? That's why the government has wisely decided not to regulate commuting, because there's way too much variability in what constitutes commuting. The pilots do a good job of policing themselves. These rules are aimed at the working schedule, not the pre-work schedule.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6423 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 20):
What would you do with a pilot that lives five hours away by car, with a 7am show time? Are they not allowed to drive to work, since they'll have been commuting for many hours, and doing all that starting at 2am? What about the pilot that lives a 30 minute flight away? Are they not allowed to commute in the day of a flight? Which would be more restful for the pilot - the 5-hour drive, or 30 minute flight? That's why the government has wisely decided not to regulate commuting, because there's way too much variability in what constitutes commuting. The pilots do a good job of policing themselves. These rules are aimed at the working schedule, not the pre-work schedule.

I don't have all the answers, I was just pointing out that you can regulate that. I'd probably wonder why the airline has a pilot who lives five hours away and needs to start working at 7 a.m.

The government regulates many things are way more complicated than people flying to work. And while there may be a wide variance in what constitutes commuting, you can easily define it and impose restrictions.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2605 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 21):
you can easily define it and impose restrictions.

Because the government trying to make a blanket definition then impose regulations that make things easier never causes more problems than it solves.  



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlinefxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 708 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5987 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):
"UPS says its 2,600 pilots have gotten used to flying at night and sleeping by day"

This statement was amde by someone who works a 9-5 day shift, with a required hour lunch away form the desk. I'e been working midnights/overnight shifts for most my adult life. It was a lot easier to do at 25 than at 35. It wears one down, and virtually impossible to not try to have a life during day hours on off days. Add a pilots life of corssing multiple times zones, sleeping in thin walled hotels, interrupting phone calls (usually form scheduling)... you can be dead tired trying to land in the 3 not crosswind on a short wet runway.

Ad if you call in and use the "F" word, you get an immediate sob story how the packages are gonna be late, or passengers inconvenienced. I've heard chief pilots pointing out that this is a high revenue flight and there's no back up crew, are you sure you're fatigued?? But, on the otherside of the spectrum... I'm heard pilots agree to push limits for an extra few thousand $$$.

Quoting Grid (Reply 21):
I don't have all the answers, I was just pointing out that you can regulate that. I'd probably wonder why the airline has a pilot who lives five hours away and needs to start working at 7 a.m.

You can't legislate good sense (especially since most the legislators lack a firm base in reality). All you can do is protect a crew member who exercises his good judgement.

I honestly think the cargo sector needs new duty regs. Same as the passenger haulers?? Maybe not. But in the last recurrent session I went through, we were told how bad for our bodies working all night is, how unnatural it is, and how we should be aware of our level of tiredness. All part of a new fatigue mitigation program... that tells us its bad and you're gonna be tired and you can call fatigue, but please don't unless we have ample reserve pilots staffing at your location.

And the worst unaddressed sector.. maintenance. A mechanical can work unlimited hours repairing an airplane. That needs to be addressed IMHO.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5927 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Because the government trying to make a blanket definition then impose regulations that make things easier never causes more problems than it solves.

Blanket definition? And I'm not sure the purpose of the regulation would be to make things easier, though hopefully that would come out of it, but rather make things safer.

Quoting fxra (Reply 23):
You can't legislate good sense (especially since most the legislators lack a firm base in reality). All you can do is protect a crew member who exercises his good judgement.

I won't argue with that.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
25 tb727 : It was exempted because of heavy lobbying by the freight companies. It's really a shame that they threw away this opportunity to really make things a
26 Mir : If it's strictly a private aircraft, there are no rest rules. However, most companies that fly those sorts of aircraft have policies that specify wha
27 aviateur : The new rules are perhaps more convoluted than they need to be. We should have expected that as any part of a package that would be acceptable to pilo
28 Post contains images FoxHunter : I've been an airline pilot for a little over 42 years with 10 more months to my forced retirement. The cut out of Cargo was not unexpected. When TCAS
29 737tanker : The airline has a pilot who lives 5 hours away because the airline closed, or reduced the staffing, of the base that he lived 30 minutes from. Also t
30 Grid : Interesting. Do they crew rest areas or what would a relief pilot do?
31 Coronado : I think this is going to further hurt some of the regional flights to smaller towns including EAS towns. Right now at CMX we have a United (Skywest) C
32 DashTrash : Nope. One level of safety. A 747 hauling adjustable bodies flies exactly the same as one hauling boxes. How much more control over my life am I suppo
33 loggat : Check out the new section on split-duty limits. There needs to be at least a 3 hour rest period and as long as the combined time of the rest and flig
34 jfklganyc : As I said earlier, I like the new rules 10 hours of rest! Finally! If they did nothing else, that would be a big improvement. But why has it taken thi
35 slider : Stand-up overnights were not eliminated either, correct? Unbelievable.
36 silentbob : I know a lot of commuters that want schedules like that. They save money on hotels and spend more days at home.
37 lightsaber : Add why wasn't cargo made to have similar rest rules? I can understand relaxing cargo's night time hours, but here is my take: impose a 12 hour rest
38 tb727 : So if you have a coveted position you just have to deal with it because you are paid well to do so? It shouldn't matter who you work for or what you
39 seven3seven : The new rule is awesome! They didnt do anything to regulate me before I go to work! But when I get there they have to make sure Im well rested! Best o
40 DashTrash : Yes and no. Late starts / early finishes are the airline's excuse for commutable lines, but only because the trips aren't productive enough. I can't
41 PITrules : People who work at a regional also took the job, and knew what they were signing up for. Does that make the existing rules ok? This is about safety a
42 jfklganyc : I agree with you guys that Safety is first. But UPS and Fed Ex and any cargo carriers do most of their flying at night. You can put as much perfume on
43 jayhup : I notice that most of the comments on here are from pilots based in the US. Pilots in the UK (and other countries) have been flying rules (CAP 371) ve
44 silentbob : I know all about it, I had 75+ hours of duty time last week.
45 PITrules : You are making many generalizations. UPS and especially FedEx do a lot of daytime flying domestically. Much of their int'l networks are daytime flyin
46 XFSUgimpLB41X : It is criminal that there was a cargo cutout for these rules. Absolutely 100% criminal.
47 tb727 : It's crazy. And everyone knows that if the passenger airlines had lobbied to get the rules put off for another 40 years this time around instead of g
48 flyhossd : In essence, I agree. Can the F.A.A. or any other governmental agency be prosecuted for negligence, though? If these new rules for U.S. Part 121 passe
49 stratosphere : Agree with you there. If MX is required to have standards as pax airlines then the rest rules need to be applied as well. Actually the freight dogs n
50 XFSUgimpLB41X : 50% of FDX's pilot block hours are in the daytime. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!
51 stratosphere : My bad I guess
52 PI767 : Okay.... here is a situation.... I just flew with a new-hire pilot who lives in Brooklyn, New York. He has no desire to relocate. The airline I work
53 Post contains images Revelation : If the airlines can have crew rooms, why not bunk rooms too? Guarantee a bunk for everyone flying before let's say 9AM the next day. Sure, it'd cost
54 tdscanuck : It's not that the dollar triumphs, it's that the FAA can't ignore dollars. They're charged with running a safe, efficient, and ECONOMICALLY VIABLE ai
55 stratosphere : I have mixed feelings on this. I as a mechanic have to work in the crappy bases afforded me at the airlines unless I have an ungodly amount of senior
56 737tanker : At your airline do the mechanics have a vacancy bid every month? At my airline we do for pilots and F/As, even when we are not adding crews. So that
57 Cubsrule : But even if that is so, can there be some realistic rules, perhaps for both carriers and pilots? Maybe we prohibit the seniority practices that permi
58 Revelation : I've just finished pointing to your reply in the 'UPS Union Sues FAA' thread and saying that I'm torn. My emotional side says a life is a life is a l
59 737tanker : If you don't use seniority to determine who gets to stay in a base what would you use? Would it be a random lottery, or just tell the airlines that t
60 Cubsrule : Maybe you use seniority but reduce the frequency of vacancy bids. If I know I'm going to be based in City X for a year minimum, I'm more likely to ge
61 Post contains links DashTrash : I have to disagree. http://www.faa.gov/about/mission/ One level of safety. They failed miserably here. FAA = Federally Aiding Airlines. The Feds HAVE
62 tdscanuck : There's a standard value within the industry...I think it's about $6 million right now but someone from the insurance side would have to weigh in. It
63 Mir : But, unless I'm very much mistaken, maintenance bases tend to stay where they are. They also don't close or shrink with nearly the same frequency as
64 Revelation : Playing devil's advocate, why then doesn't the FAA increase duty hours and reduce rest hours till we start seeing a statistically and fiscally large
65 Post contains links HAL : I've noticed most here have not read the actual 314 page final rule from the FAA. If you had, most of these discussions would be unnecessary. For exam
66 tb727 : Which is fairly true but I think the ride along mechanics are the ones who have it the worst. I had a ride along this week and he was on the airplane
67 stratosphere : Yep had a few friends who were flying mechanics after NWA kicked us to the street in 2005. Actually the ones who worked for OMNI and Southern didn't
68 tdscanuck : Because they already have what they consider a statistically and fiscally large magnitude of crashes with fatigue as a contributing factor...they alr
69 HarleyDriver : I am completely flabbergasted that passenger and cargo crew rest and flight duty time regulations will differ. I fly in the USAF and consider myself l
70 Post contains images zippyjet : Especially Congre$$! If they voted for the same candidates that UPS brives/I mean lobbies maybe they'd have a change of heart! Can't deny those CEO's
71 jcos15 : I've read through the highlights, but frankly don't have the time or expertise (not aviation employee) to read the whole thing, and there seems to be
72 HAL : Right there is the problem with regulating fatigue factors, as different people react differently to various causes. I personally don't get any more
73 Post contains images jcos15 : Agreed, measuring fatigue factors is incredibly difficult as it is so different for each of us. Like my example of being in a pressurized plane (of c
74 Trucker : Yes. Truck drivers have hours of service regulations not so much to protect themselves and their cargo but to protect others in their envirement. Tha
75 Post contains links kalvado : http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/topics/hos/index.htm rules are not the same for property-carrying and passenger-carrying drivers. Seems to
76 saab2000 : These rule changes are long overdue and the two year wait is a hope for more oligarch-friendly administration to block these rules. If they had simply
77 tb727 : Hey Stratosphere, send me a msg! Your email is blocked on your profile. Exactly, the full page USA Today ad from the UPS pilots a couple months back
78 tdscanuck : But we can't have it both ways...everybody gets up in arms when the government gets over detailed on regulations because one size usually doesn't fit
79 Trucker : Oops. I thought when truck drivers went to the new hours of service rules a few years ago bus drivers were included. Looks like they're still operati
80 ContnlEliteCMH : I'm sure I'm going to point out what you already know, but you may ask too much when you ask for nuanced thought when human lives are involved. Most
81 saab2000 : I can see your point but I don't entirely agree with it. At any rate, I do choose to commute and I recognize that. And I do it responsibly, arriving
82 Mir : I don't know about that - I'd rather see wages increase with experience (basically, seniority), as that's the real asset that a pilot brings to a cre
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