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Virgin America Post Q3 Earnings.  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9111 times:

$16.2mil operating profit, with resultant $3.3mil net loss much on 86% increase in fuel expenses year over year.

Good yield and RASM growth.

Received $150mil in new financing.

Press release:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Virgin...s-Third-prnews-2925612870.html?x=0

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinehatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8852 times:

An operating profit is great to hear. But what is their total debt load up to now? I can understand that they're likely waiting it out to take on new planes and grow to reach a scale where they start seeing returns. But that's an awful lot of interest to continue paying each year.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8808 times:

Operating income down 23% YOY, net income down 144% YOY, net income YTD 'up' 60% to -$70MM

Quoting hatbutton (Reply 1):
I can understand that they're likely waiting it out to take on new planes and grow to reach a scale where they start seeing returns.

If their first dozen+/- markets are this 'good', makes you wonder how the next round will improve things

[Edited 2011-12-21 13:55:29]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13134 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8688 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
$16.2mil operating profit, with resultant $3.3mil net loss

A good result. I'm a fan of the net profit being in the black, but considering how tough things are... Not bad.

I would like to see more than $24M in unrestricted cash... But it is enough for now.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
If their first dozen+/- markets are this 'good', makes you wonder how the next round will improve things

Eventually growth helps retain and gain customers. If VX is able to manage their cost growth, even less viable markets should be more profitable. A 6% operating margin isn't great. I suspect some of that is AA at DFW trying to stop VX.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8532 times:

As I have said here many times, the cash position of VX is not comparable to others as they are private company.

VX cash has always been relative low, and regardless of the loss they incur stays in the same general range. (posted below)

Just like Spirit when they were private, the owners would backfill the coffers as needed and kept actual cash on hand at the airline to a relative low amount.

For those focused on cash here is what the end of quarters numbers have been for the last few years:

1Q9 - $38m
2Q9 - $28m
3Q9 - $23m
4Q9 - $22m
1Q10 - $28m
2Q10 - $26m
3Q10 - $25m
4Q10 - $30m
1Q11 - $25m
2Q11 - $26m
3Q11 - $24m


At the end of the day, the results are rather positive imo.
For fun looking at them, if fuel had remained at last years cost, they would have shown $33mil higher earnings - a nifty profit figure for a small airline.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13608 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8448 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
For fun looking at them, if fuel had remained at last years cost, they would have shown $33mil higher earnings - a nifty profit figure for a small airline.



"Yeah, well if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's ass a-hoppin'!" - Nathan Arizona

The fact of the matter is that fuel didn't remain at last year's cost, and they're going to continue to need to shore up their RASM numbers to stay in the game. Good job to the people of VX for the operating profit, but it's too early to call them successful.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinebluebus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8407 times:

I wonder how much damage VX has done to other airlines.

You have this airline that provides the best domestic product and is able to compete with pricing with other airlines. Those other airlines need to lower their prices or up their product to compete. Problem is where other airlines are needing to worry about this thing called "profit" VX is able to continue to run with out it.


User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8368 times:

Quoting bluebus (Reply 6):
You have this airline that provides the best domestic product and is able to compete with pricing with other airlines

Without a doubt there are the best bang for you buck in the US. I'm really pulling for them and hope to see them grow exponentially in the future. I wish I had to fly to the west coast more often. If they flew to destinations here in the Northeast they would be the only airline I flew on!



RUSH
User currently offlineHiflyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8368 times:

Quoting bluebus (Reply 6):
Problem is where other airlines are needing to worry about this thing called "profit" VX is able to continue to run with out it.

What exactly is up with that? They seem to find investors that must be star-struck to invest with Branson. To be honest he reminds me more and more of Donald Trump...a self-promoting blowhard.

Everyone except AA showed big net profits in the third quarter. Yet again VX continues to lose money...this in the best quarter of the year. Everyone else had to buy fuel too so VX's excuse for a net loss is a load of you-know-what. If they can't make money with a load factor of 84% then something is seriously wrong with this airline.

[Edited 2011-12-21 16:05:27]

User currently offlinebluebus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8273 times:

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 8):
If they can't make money with a load factor of 84% then something is seriously wrong with this airline.

Well, they are still new and still growing. Maybe the idea of getting people to fly them, know what they offer and then raise prices? I mean I normally find the cheapest ticket possible, but if I have the choice between VX or some crappy regional airliner and $40 diff, I will go VX.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8175 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
if fuel had remained at last years cost, they would have shown $33mil higher earnings - a nifty profit figure for a small airline.

I'm absolutely certain if that were the case the industry would have competed that profit away, and VX would again be at the bottom of the heap.

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 8):
Everyone except AA showed big net profits in the third quarter. Yet again VX continues to lose money...this in the best quarter of the year. Everyone else had to buy fuel too so VX's excuse for a net loss is a load of you-know-what.

  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8044 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
I'm absolutely certain if that were the case the industry would have competed that profit away, and VX would again be at the bottom of the heap.

No, VX flies in a vacuum, dint' you know that?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineHiflyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 11):
No, VX flies in a vacuum, dint' you know that?

They DO seem to be flying in a vacuum....in their own little world where it's impossible for them to turn a profit, no matter how much their customers 'like' them. And I have a feeling the honeymoon is over.... three months of pissing off your regular customers due to IT problems and then NOT making it right for them http://crankyflier.com says to me this company has major problems.

Other airlines reported much higher Y-O-Y RASM increases (UA/CO 17%, DL 16%, US 15% vs. VX 9%)....why can't VX raise their fares to cover their costs? Or do they even WANT to? It's like dumping...predatory pricing to undercut your competion and deliberately selling your product at a loss. I believe that's illegal if you are exporting goods to another country...but what about an airline who's main promoter (investor?) is not a U.S. citizen?

[Edited 2011-12-21 19:06:02]

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7705 times:
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I'm flying from DFW-LAX in a few weeks on VX. It is my second round trip flight with them this year. The first time I flew with them to SFO the flights out of DFW were about 65-70% full. This time to LAX they are about 90%. When I made my seat selection my DFW-LAX flight had about 14 seats available and coming home on the Monday night flight from LAX they only had about 8 empty seats and only middle ones at that. Given the choice to the west coast at their fares I would rather take VX and be treated as a human being and arrive relaxed.

While waiting in the lineup to take off from SFO-DFW on my previous flight I managed to fall asleep thanks to the wonderful background music and mood lighting.

As far as their computers go, I had no problem booking my flight on line or paying for it. They must have solved the IT problem. Heck Southwest hasn't fixed their IPhone APP calendar yet and their APP is totally useless because of it.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7553 times:

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 8):
To be honest he reminds me more and more of Donald Trump...a self-promoting blowhard.

Having worked for Branson, and having met him on countless occasions I would hardly call him a blowhard.

He's nothing but a down to earth charismatic fella. He might now have ivy league business acumen but he makes up for it which charisma, a marketing knack while surrounding himself with a good cadre of executives.

Personally he's one of the most warn and caring person I've met. More specifically a colleague of mine of having some medical issues with his daughter - out of the blue a few months later Branson shows up and the first thing he did was ask how this girl was doing by name.

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 12):
It's like dumping...predatory pricing to undercut your competion and deliberately selling your product at a loss.

Suggest you read up on the legal terms you are throwing out.

A company with barely 1% of the national market place is doing nothing else than simply "competing".

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 12):
I believe that's illegal if you are exporting goods to another country...but what about an airline who's main promoter (investor?) is not a U.S. citizen?

I guess you did not get the memo. Virgin America is a US company, that employs Americans. Foreign parties only have a minority (less than 25% ) stake in the business.

Btw ironically AMR had some 21.3% of its share in hands of foreign entities or parties. I never heard anyone claim that AA was a foreign controlled company.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13608 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7439 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 12):
It's like dumping...predatory pricing to undercut your competion and deliberately selling your product at a loss.

Suggest you read up on the legal terms you are throwing out.

A company with barely 1% of the national market place is doing nothing else than simply "competing".

It's not predatory, but they ARE throwing good money after bad trying to "buy" market share.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7271 times:

Nice to see VX still posting profits. Nice to see that their somewhat different business model is/has working/ed out.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):

That made my night! One of my favorite comedies.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineHiflyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6709 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 16):
Nice to see VX still posting profits

Not sure what financial reports you're reading? They've never made a profit.


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6648 times:
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VX is slowly coming around and is getting repeat business. It's pretty simple, Once you try them you will want to fly them again. Their employees treat you like a human being. The planes are outstanding. For us in Texas it is where Muse Air would be today if it were still around.

User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2798 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6534 times:

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 17):
They've never made a profit.

They did in Q3 2010, at least. See the report linked by the OP.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6251 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 18):
VX is slowly coming around and is getting repeat business.
Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 12):
And I have a feeling the honeymoon is over....
Quoting bluebus (Reply 9):
Maybe the idea of getting people to fly them, know what they offer and then raise prices?

Has there ever been a carrier that struggled for years on end and then grew to profitability? Most, if not all LCCs start out profitable, if they're lucky, and then come back down to earth, as B6, WN, F9, and FL have recently done.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5192 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

I just want them to fly here to Houston...could it be that they are growing too slowly?


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4917 times:

$24M in cash...a ton of airplanes coming into the fleet (Toronto didn't work out real well for them), loads of maturing markets (and many that T-100 indicates could go Toronto's way) and very few mature markets. Whining about fuel cost when you have the YOUNGEST fleet in the nation (remember the most profitable airline flies nothing by MD80s and 757s). Break-even load factor north of 85% (Summer months only). That number probably grows to near 90-95% in winter months. To make a full 10% on invested capital their load factor needs to be above 95%, if not near or north of 100% on an annual basis. Those are awful numbers. Period.

This is a profile of a carrier that is really struggling. JetBlue had a very high break-even load factor in its infancy. The difference is they exceeded it. And they flew in an under served marketplace (at the time). Tell me what is under served on any route VX is flying or any route they could fly?

Sorry guys, I am not impressed and I second this comment:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 15):
they ARE throwing good money after bad trying to "buy" market share.


User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4832 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Most, if not all LCCs start out profitable, if they're lucky, and then come back down to earth, as B6, WN, F9, and FL have recently done.

I know you said "most if not all" but since you included WN as an example, Southwest was not profitable from the beginning.

They lost money for the years of 1971, and 1972, and in 1973 finally reached profitability.

.December 31, 1973

Southwest ends 1973 with our first yearly profit!

January 13, 1974

Jan. 13, 1974 Southwest announces its first profitable year was 1973.


http://www.swamedia.com/channels/By-Category/pages/earnings

Jetblue did in fact record a profit from the first year of service I believe.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

But you said it, SuperDash:

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 22):
a ton of airplanes coming into the fleet, loads of maturing markets and very few mature markets.

All of that equals expense. Once they have tons of aircraft in their fleet instead of tons of aircraft coming, more and mature markets, and when they get better recognized as a brand, I'm sure they'll be fine. For now, they are doing great IMHO. Their service is awesome, prices are low to attract more passengers to try them, LF is high, they are expanding, and as if that's not enough, they are even making an operating profit! VX needs time more than anything.

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 22):

This is a profile of a carrier that is really struggling.

It's also a profile of a new carrier that's trying to rapidly expand in a very competitive environment.

[Edited 2011-12-23 11:27:03]

25 EA CO AS : Or, their rate of monthly cash burn increases exponentially as the number of loss-inducing routes and flights jumps dramatically. You can have dozens
26 Post contains images PezySPU : No, by that time they might already have more profitable routes that will keep things in balance the way they are now. This discussion is pointless,
27 GEN2STEW : quoting LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18189 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted Thu Dec 22 2011 02:06:37 your local time (1 day 1
28 MaverickM11 : It's been 4 years now for VX, and whereas WN had an almost endless supply of low hanging fruit. VX has an endless supply of routes whose razor thin p
29 Post contains images EA CO AS : Neither does VX, and that's the problem - "Eff it, let's roll the dice!" is not a way to manage a company's growth. VX has committed themselves to gr
30 SuperDash : Based on your theory, they have NEW markets coming that will be more profitable than the ones they are flying now (that has to be the case if they ar
31 AsianDude : The usual VX haters who have posted anti-VX propaganda in every VX thread since the airline was announced are busy as usual. It's gotten just as ridic
32 HiflyerAS : In the airline industry, that's not necessarily the case. The airline industry is littered with the remains of companies with innovative products. It
33 Post contains links NUAir : You could start a fuel hedge with $1, although with transaction costs you would need large change in price to benefit. I have worked with companies t
34 GEN2STEW : Quating ASIAN DUDE: In passenger survey, after passenger survey, VX keeps winning kudos, plaudits, and awards. VX has said on a number of occasions th
35 F9Animal : Very well said. I was going to comment on it, but I have a hard time taking the higher road. He is indeed very rich.. But, he sure knows how to wow p
36 EA CO AS : Take whatever money you were planning on investing, put it in a paper bag, douse it with gasoline, and light it. The end result would be precisely th
37 MasseyBrown : You'll have to wait for the DoT data to find out. VX was also tight-lipped about the terms of their new loan. While LAXintl points out their cash has
38 Post contains images GEN2STEW : USER PROFILE SEND INSTANT MSG ADD TO RESP MEMBERS SUGGEST DELETION QUOTE SELECTED TEXT _ EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1147
39 UALWN : I agree with this advice, which can be extended to basically any US airline...
40 Post contains links and images EA CO AS : Not quite:
41 HiflyerAS : I find it interesting that there are so many people with a negative view of VX...maybe it's because they're so full of themselves without any cred.
42 UALWN : Hence why I wrote "basically." Do you have a similar graph for AA though? What about the bankruptcies of UA, DL, NW, CO and US in the last ten years?
43 EA CO AS : Is that also why you said "any" right after it? Your blanket statement implied that all U.S. carriers could be looked at as poor investments, and I w
44 UALWN : Do you really don't understand what "basically any airline" means? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
45 EA CO AS : Leave it alone, we get it - based on what you're saying now, it sounds as if your intent was to say "most U.S. carriers" - but unfortunately, that's
46 Kleiner : Nobody complains their way to success. Which is why these armchair CEOs will never run an airline. If investors keep investing in VX, then there's inf
47 Post contains images HiflyerAS : Huh? Since when did any airline beg for help from the US government? Yes, EAS is a handout but airlines are being taxed to death by congress....there
48 UALWN : Well, you may be surprised to find out that "most US carriers" and "basically any US airline" actually mean the same.
49 MaverickM11 : Ignoring the tired and irrelevant argument about product, you try running an airline with six-plus decades of regulation costs and practices.
50 AsianDude : Um.... try all the loans after 9/11, not to mention the protection from creditors that the US Bankruptcy Court gives US airlines. Agreed. There are a
51 freakyrat : I took my first flight on VX this past summer and I was impressed. Their people actually treat you like you are their guests. I like that. They have a
52 N757ST : Your realize b6 not only provides a better Y product then 90% of north American carriers, but it's also very profitable at 9% operating margins and 5
53 jfklganyc : I don't see why there seems to be a war on here between VX lovers and so called haters. Whether you like it or not: 1. They are not profitable 2. They
54 MaverickM11 : They've lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the process; Skybus, Eos, Maxjet, Silverjet, Oasis, and many others built, or "earned" in your parlan
55 Kleiner : This is why I'd never be so presumptuous. If VX was transparent about their plans, it's safe to say there'd be no VX.
56 EA CO AS : All of which is meaningless if they keep losing money, and that's the thing people seem to be missing.
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