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How Is AC YVR-SYD Doing?  
User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11358 times:

Does anyone know how Air Canada's Vancouver-Sydney route is doing?


brad Fitzpatrick
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11186 times:

Airlines will never publish profits on a particular route.

But ... the airline load factor is over 80%, and the YVR-SYD-YVR route is even higher. If you are thinking of non-reving, not a good idea as it is continuously full, and when it is not, cargo often load restricts anything over revenue passengers.

A Super-Elite passenger recently told me that the YVR-SYD-YVR route is the most sought after Aeroplan reward route, and it is often "sold out" within seconds of the seats going into inventory at midnight!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8028 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11084 times:

I know legacy routes can get the chop just like tentative new additions that don't quite pan out...but you must remember, Air Canada have flown this route for a long time. They did it with 747s, with 767s, they did it via Hawaii, they do it nonstop. They are very well known to travel agents and the public at both ends. And they have a monopoly too. So they are very well established on the route. At this point, I would not expect there to be a lot of untapped growth. It's a fully mature market. This is not Sydney to Dallas. It is, at this late stage, what it is.

And, I suspect, what it is, is very profitable. Big links and similarities (not in winter) between the two countries, same head of state, same laid-back attitude, same weirdly right-wing politics in thrall to the White House, same reliance on mineral wealth to support a post-industrial economy, same very low density of population in a massive, mostly uninhabitable (one very hot, one very cold) landmass, same well-liked reputation in the world, and I have certainly had love affairs with both countries, and who wouldn't want to shuttle between them.

Re the (on again, off again) competition, in the fifties Qantas used to fly to YVR once a fortnight with 707s.

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Looks like they had another attempt in the mid-2000s.

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More interestingly, they had a stab at Toronto as well (which I think ran SYD-HNL-YYZ).

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fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineyvrsr From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11034 times:

I did YVR -> SYD and return 4 times this year, 3 times in business class and once in economy. Business class was full on my 3 trips - obviously I don' t know how many were paid and how many were upgrades. In my last trip, in Economy I had an empty middle seat next to me on my return to YVR, but the plane looked pretty full other wise. My attempt at an upgrade failed. Again, lots of people does not necessarily mean lots of profit.

The nonstop is a great improvement over the YVR-HNL-SYD routing, which I did trip several times in the past. In each direction the stop in HNL was around midnight. It was a pain in the neck to get off the plane and then get back on in an hour. On the SYD->HNL->YVR trip one had to clear US immigration in HNL as well.

Anyways, I think the nonstop routing between Australia and Canada is appreciated by people who want to avoid dealing unnecessarily with US immigration.

By the way, just near the Sydney airport there are 3 or 4 large billboards advertising the routing SYD-YVR-YYZ.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26338 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10911 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
Re the (on again, off again) competition, in the fifties Qantas used to fly to YVR once a fortnight with 707s.

The idea of one flight every 2 weeks is hilarious today.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24629 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10859 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
Air Canada have flown this route for a long time.

Actually not that long, only since they acquired Canadian Airlines in 2001. AC never had rights to the South Pacific until they inherited CP's rights. CP (including predecessor Canadian Pacific) had been operating the route since mid-1949, their first international route.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
Looks like they had another attempt in the mid-2000s.

That QF service for a couple of years in the 2000s was a seasonal tag-on from SFO for 2 or 3 peak season months a year, just once or twice a week if memory correct..

QF changed their YVR operation quite a few times over the years. Started as a tag-on from SFO, initially with the L-1049G Super Constellation, then with the 707-138 starting in September 1959 (QF was the first carrier with jet service to Vancouver).

Then in the early 1970s they dropped the SFO tag-on and replaced it for a couple of years with a YVR-PPT-SYD routing using 707-338Cs (forget whether it also stopped at NAN between PPT and SYD). I think that service was twice a week. Then back to the SFO tag-on but with the 747-200 and back to once a week. Then for a while starting sometime in the 1980s they switched to a YVR-HNL-SYD routing. Then they dropped YVR completely, only returning briefly in the mid-2000s with the seasonal 744 SFO tag-on service mentioned above.


User currently offlineaussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10793 times:

Route doing very well. Although you will not see AC start another market eg MEL (to capital intensive) or see them fly a second flight via HNL or LAX (bloodbath). At best we will see seasonal increases for non stop between SYD-YVR. However it will require additional 77L. But when i spoke to then they said they might wait till they receive 787's before launching additional services. However are they getting the 8 or 9 series and could they do SYD-YVR-SYD non stop year-round?
So I suspect it might be a while off before we see an increase perhaps?


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10165 times:

Quoting aussie747 (Reply 6):
Although you will not see AC start another market eg MEL (to capital intensive) or see them fly a second flight via HNL or LAX (bloodbath)

SNORT. You clearly have no idea how much the Victorian government would pay / give incentives for another North American carrier to start flying here avoiding SYD.

AC started flying YVR-HNL-MEL with 767s just before September 11 and ceased soon after - and the AC CEO at the time of ordering 787s is on record as singling out YVR-MEL as a 787 route if there ever was one.

Canadians are a sharp bunch - a lot of people would pay for a few hours extra flight time to Toronto and Montreal via YVR from Australia to avoid hellish US immigration and "transit" (read: there is no transit) procedures.

I, for one, welcome our new Canadian overlords. Come forth and cannibalise QF & AA to your heart's content.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 934 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9968 times:
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Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
But ... the airline load factor is over 80%, and the YVR-SYD-YVR route is even higher. If you are thinking of non-reving, not a good idea as it is continuously full, and when it is not, cargo often load restricts anything over revenue passengers.

Good to hear.

Can't believe they actually considered launching YYZ-SYD via crowed LAX


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9916 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
Can't believe they actually considered launching YYZ-SYD via crowed LAX

YYZ-LAX-SYD is *nearly* great circle pathway, so it's perfect from fuel perspective but absolutely stinks from passenger convenience POV.

If Boeing ever launch a 788LR, AC would jump to YVR-MEL in a heartbeat.

ps : does anyone know if UA has 5th freedom on the SYD-MEL tag? Are they allowed to code-share with AC and sell YVR-SYD-MEL ?


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 791 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9793 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
But ... the airline load factor is over 80%, and the YVR-SYD-YVR route is even higher. If you are thinking of non-reving, not a good idea as it is continuously full, and when it is not, cargo often load restricts anything over revenue passengers.

I thought the point of AC ordering the 772-LR was to avoid having to choose between pax and cargo?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9659 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 10):
I thought the point of AC ordering the 772-LR was to avoid having to choose between pax and cargo?

They don't.
They choose between non-revenue passengers and revenue cargo. It doesn't happen often, but when weather is a factor, it can happen. Certainly quite an improvement over the B767 which flew the route before the B777, which was often load restricted on even the SYD-HNL leg.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5146 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9649 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):

Looks like they had another attempt in the mid-2000s.

Problem is it used to have a stop enroute.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8415 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
Airlines will never publish profits on a particular route.

Right, they do not. However, one usually can tell about profits when a route gets axed or severely downgraded in equipment.... or when a route consistently gets upgrades with either more frequency or bigger planes, or planes with more F and J seats over time.
In the case of AC, it's been a steady 777 (L or W?) since they opened the non-stop, but they don't have any other viable options in terms of aircraft to use. If it goes down to a 787 later on, perhaps it is a sign things weren't doing so well... but if anything, I'd rather see an extra frequency (perhaps using the 787) than anything else...

My guess is that it is one of their best performing routes, but it's a guess!

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
Air Canada have flown this route for a long time.

Actually not that long, only since they acquired Canadian Airlines in 2001. AC never had rights to the South Pacific until they inherited CP's rights. CP (including predecessor Canadian Pacific) had been operating the route since mid-1949, their first international route.

Since CP and AC merged, it kind of counts as an old route. AC inherited of the market share and presence that CP had already established on the route, which is a lot different from starting it from scratch. It would be like saying that DL's hub at NRT is a new thing...



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24629 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8305 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
Air Canada have flown this route for a long time.

Actually not that long, only since they acquired Canadian Airlines in 2001. AC never had rights to the South Pacific until they inherited CP's rights. CP (including predecessor Canadian Pacific) had been operating the route since mid-1949, their first international route.

Since CP and AC merged, it kind of counts as an old route. AC inherited of the market share and presence that CP had already established on the route, which is a lot different from starting it from scratch. It would be like saying that DL's hub at NRT is a new thing...

I agree with your comments. I just wanted to clarify that it wasn't AC that developed and operated the route for more than half a century before AC took over in 2001. I expect many former NW employees would also disagree with a statement that DL has been serving Tokyo since the 1940s.


User currently offlinecanadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7572 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 7):
I, for one, welcome our new Canadian overlords. Come forth and cannibalise QF & AA to your heart's content.

  With enthusiasm like this, how can it fail!



Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7572 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 9):

ps : does anyone know if UA has 5th freedom on the SYD-MEL tag?

It's not possible for ANY airline to have 5th freedom on SYD-MEL as it is a domestic route, the freedoms apply to INTERNATIONAL civil aviation, except for the 8th, of course, which is what would be required for UA to operate the route with local pax. Only NZ airlines have 8th freedom rights in Australia.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7281 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 16):
It's not possible for ANY airline to have 5th freedom on SYD-MEL as it is a domestic route, the freedoms apply to INTERNATIONAL civil aviation, except for the 8th, of course, which is what would be required for UA to operate the route with local pax. Only NZ airlines have 8th freedom rights in Australia.

But if AirCanada and United has JV over Pacific, are they allowed to sell YVR-SYD-MEL through ticket ?


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2224 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7171 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 16):It's not possible for ANY airline to have 5th freedom on SYD-MEL as it is a domestic route, the freedoms apply to INTERNATIONAL civil aviation, except for the 8th, of course, which is what would be required for UA to operate the route with local pax. Only NZ airlines have 8th freedom rights in Australia.
But if AirCanada and United has JV over Pacific, are they allowed to sell YVR-SYD-MEL through ticket ?

In short yes that could happen. Watch for the Atlantic LH/AC/UA JV to settle in and route rationalization really begin to work and the cross border AC/UA JV to make it past the Competition Commissioner before Pacific gets launched.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16239 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6855 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
More interestingly, they had a stab at Toronto as well (which I think ran SYD-HNL-YYZ).

QF flew YYZ-LAX (not HNL) with their 4x weekly 763, to connect to their LAX flights. QF pulled out of YYZ at the same their OW partner AA reinstated daily YYZ-LAX (with the 738) around 2001 to feed the same QF LAX flights.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4876 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6840 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
QF flew YYZ-LAX (not HNL) with their 4x weekly 763, to connect to their LAX flights.

Could QF carry local passengers between YYZ and LAX? I know they did carry local passengers between SFO and YVR, and AC/CP carried local passengers between HNL and SYD. (In fact for a few years there was only one airline with daily flights between HNL and SYD, and it was neither QF nor HA!)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16239 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6823 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
QF flew YYZ-LAX (not HNL) with their 4x weekly 763, to connect to their LAX flights.

Could QF carry local passengers between YYZ and LAX?

Yes -- QF had fifth freedoms on YYZ-LAX.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6752 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):

Could QF carry local passengers between YYZ and LAX?

Yes -- QF had fifth freedoms on YYZ-LAX.

QF did NOT and does NOT have fifth freedom rights LAX-YYZ, they only have 5th freedom between HNL & SFO - YVR. It's in the treaty and is why AC couldn't fly LAX - SYD.

IF QF did fly local pax between LAX-YYZ then it was because the Canidian government gave special permission, outside the provisions of the treaty. I did hear at the time that they did so, but that is TOTALLY unconfirmed.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6421 times:

^ yep... Australia-Canada bilateral only allows carriers from either country to serve SYD or YVR with the option for carriers from both countries to "elect" a second port (QF elected YYZ and AC elected MEL in the past). And the points in between are designated HNL and SFO (and other South Pacific ports) - LAX is off limits.

It's incredibly silly that this still exists - Harper and Gillard should just throw it all open - no capacity restrictions and no routing or destination restrictions (yes there's only one CA-AU-CA flight a day now, but really - what's the point in these restrictions in this day and age? buggar all point, that's what!).


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16239 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6336 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 22):
QF did NOT and does NOT have fifth freedom rights LAX-YYZ, they only have 5th freedom between HNL & SFO - YVR. It's in the treaty and is why AC couldn't fly LAX - SYD.

IF QF did fly local pax between LAX-YYZ then it was because the Canidian government gave special permission, outside the provisions of the treaty. I did hear at the time that they did so, but that is TOTALLY unconfirmed.

QF flew local pax between YYZ-LAX. Hence 5th freedoms existed, whether real or de facto.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 Viscount724 : QF's brief service to YYZ was via HNL, not LAX. The bilateral doesn't permit service to Canada via LAX and there was definitely no exception made for
26 motorhussy : And with AC's *alliance partner NZ, star members can take advantage of YVR-SYD-AKL-YVR with a combination of the two airlines. How is AC's relationshi
27 RP TPA : What are the prospects for a *A carrier in Australia? I know UA has some tie-in with Virgin Australia. Any chance of them (VA) expanding that partners
28 Bluebird191 : DJ barely have any tie-up with UA nowadays - it won't surprise me if they had none at all now. They dropped UA in favour of the tie-up and close co-o
29 MEL : agreed... QF's 763 run into Toronto *DID NOT* operate via LAX... it operated via HNL. Just think of it.... if the 763 operated via LAX, where would it
30 Post contains images tayser : stop talking so much sense, I won't have it! There are already several. in MEL alone: NZ: - 3x daily (plus or minus a few depending on the season) to
31 brilondon : Bingo!! Did they not also have an agreement with CP to transfer passengers onwards from HNL directly to YYZ at one time back in the mid 90's?
32 longhauler : Yes, back in the 1990s, QF and CP had a code-share. CP flew YYZ-HNL and YVR-HNL, (with a QF code as well), and this connected with QF that flew HNL-S
33 longhauler : CP did the came thing in the 1950s, using Britannias, a fortnightly service. Together, they gave a weekly service.
34 Viscount724 : CP's South Pacific route became once-a-week in 1953 when operated by the DC-6B. The Britannia wasn't used on the South Pacific until about 1961 or 19
35 FlyboyOz : Yes Virgin Australia has an interline agreement with Alaska Airlines from LAX to YVR
36 RP TPA : Perhaps, but for North American carriers (UA/AC) running their own metal to AU, it would be great to have some sort of domestic feed in SYD/MEL, or a
37 zbbylw : AC has some feed once they get to SYD. I always see some flights to AKL and a few other cities in NZ with AC code shared flight numbers associated wit
38 Viscount724 : You can also book AC-QF connections to/from all major cities in Australia on the AC website.[Edited 2011-12-26 12:59:58]
39 byronicle6 : Hi , Sorry for being off topic but I flew the QF route (SYD-HNL-YVR) in 2000 (Sept 5th ) to be precise. I believe the scheduled departure time from SY
40 tayser : timing seem right... AC34 departs SYD at 12:15pm and arrives in YVR at 7:25am at the moment. 2-3 hours in HNL would make up the difference from the cu
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