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DFS Looking At OSL Approach Model For FRA  
User currently onlineDrStrange From Germany, joined Jul 2007, 49 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Hello everyone,

I read an interesting article in the german newspaper FAZ this morning, about DFS considering introducing the point merge system implemented at OSL to reduce noise impact on the communities surrounding the airport.
As a first step in the beginning of 2012, they want to implement the continuous descent operations at FRA.
With an election coming up in the state of Hesse, the opposition is using the "drastic noise increase" as percieved by the communites surrounding the airport, to put pressure on DFS and FRA to do something about the noise.

Article in german only:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-mai...erm-deutlich-mindern-11577386.html

There is mention of an interesting youtube video at the end of the article, illustrating the point merge system at OSL. I'd like to share that with you, as I found it very interesting with a good illustration from my layman's pov:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC_X6t_Rbq4

Have a great day.

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Quoting DrStrange (Thread starter):
continuous descent operations at FRA

Continous decent with the point-merge system? Good luck!  

Point merge makes you increase capacity and better control noise, but it often implies a lot of flying in rather low altitudes. After it was implementet at OSL I've experienced that you more often have to "tour" Eastern-Norway than earlier. So while hotspots issues is improves, capacity increased and noise better controlled, the thing with the emission of green house gases and fuel consumption is BS, as it actually increases


User currently onlineDrStrange From Germany, joined Jul 2007, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

I think it'll be an either or.... the article is not clear in that respect.
They want to introduce CDO in 2012 and are looking to switch to the point merge system in five years time.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Two sides of the same coin:

Back side: After they opened the new runways, communities got affected that had far less noise before. The complain and protest. Since the number of flights did not go up much, others, me included, have less noise, and nobody but me appreciates that.

Front side: With good will I'm sure a lot of optimisation still can be done and must be done. As example one could use the southern runway for landings and the 18 for takeoffs after evening peak and before morning peak, these have the lowest impact on people, so an effective curfew of 8 hours for most population could be achieved with an airport that still has enough capacity for the later evening to early morning - provided good will on all sides...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9531 posts, RR: 31
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2541 times:

Continous decent will be evaluated for the "slow" hours when total traffic justifies the procedure. If the Leipzig court upholds the zoning law that allows 17 night operations, meaning about 8 to 10 landings per night, there should be no problem even with a higher glidescope of 3,2 % . Whatever night ops, they would not need to be on the new runway and all available noise abatement measures could be used.

With 126 ops per hour, 65 to 75 landings during a landing bank divided between 2 landing runwaays, CDS would likeley not be an option.

But that is for DFS to decide. They have to keep a clear mind with all the political pressure they are facing. The Nimbys want to close the new runway altogether, which is an insane demand, but the way politicians are these days I would not bet on this not happening.

BTW, the next state election is in 2 years only and whoever wins that, he would not have much room for anti airport action since FRA is a nationaly important infrastructure and federal law neats state law beats city law . The next PM, if not the same as today, would really not want to be the one who "de-hubbed" FRA.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineqm001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

I often wonder what these idiot NIMBY's want? Should FRA close down and move away? Would they prefer more than 60,000 unemployed people in their area, or noise from the airport that has already been there for decades, and is really what has made Frankfurt what it is today?

If the Airport was to move/close, they would also most certainly lose their status as Europe's financial center, and may even lose an even more significant number of jobs.

I totally get that noise may be annoying, but what do they honest expect to happen? ... and are the consequences of such actions fully thought through?

... Just my   



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting qm001 (Reply 5):
I often wonder what these idiot NIMBY's want? Should FRA close down and move away? Would they prefer more than 60,000 unemployed people in their area, or noise from the airport that has already been there for decades, and is really what has made Frankfurt what it is today?

I guess they simply want to sleep at night. And over-the-top threats ("OMG if we limit night ops, we'll all lose our jobs, FRA will die, we'll all gonna die, won't somebody think of the children!") probably make them more assured in their position, if anything.

NIMBY's don't make the laws, it's the administration's job to find a balance between quality of life near the airport and the demands of the economy. But I see nothing wrong with them making their point. NIMBY bashing is oh-so-easy if you're not the one affected by the noise.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting qm001 (Reply 5):
often wonder what these idiot NIMBY's want? Should FRA close down and move away? Would they prefer more than 60,000 unemployed people in their area, or noise from the airport that has already been there for decades, and is really what has made Frankfurt what it is today?

If the Airport was to move/close, they would also most certainly lose their status as Europe's financial center, and may even lose an even more significant number of jobs.

I totally get that noise may be annoying, but what do they honest expect to happen? ... and are the consequences of such actions fully thought through?

I fully agree with you, and Pan Ham thanks for that explanation.

But this does not mean nothing can be done to help those affected, not all of them are NIMBYs. When a new highway or railway gets built, affected houses get better noise protection paid to get within acceptable limits inside, mainly 3-glasses windows, but it can also mean a new roof with included noise protection. Total investment sum per house around 20 000€. What the German Railway has to pay when building a new line, why don't the airports have the same obligation when building a new runway?
For the price of one A380, 15 000 houses with maybe 75000 people living in them could be isolated. And as usual there is a general debate when in the end the real question is: Who has to pay for it? The owner of the house? DFS? Fraport? The airlines? The local government? The federal government? The EU? and in the end the EU gives 10%, the federal govenment 50%, the local 20%, the airlines 10% and the owner 10% and most owners still complain they have to pay 2000€ to be able to stay in their worthless home (and get the houses renovated and save the 2000€ in 2 years just from lower heaing costs), only a.net wines about the unfair treatment of airlines, and the US airlines will go to court to not have to pay a dime, the Chinese and Emirates will threaten not to announce the next A380 order,...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9531 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

First of all, I agree with all means of noie abatement, enough money is made and generated by aviation to pay for spound proofing, to buy houses in areas that are most affected, in "silent approach" techniques, whatever it takes.

Whatever is done however, won't please the hard core demonstrators who assemble each Monday now at t1 . They want to close the airport alothgether, at least the nmew runway, a 1 billion€ investment in infrastructure.

Their argument is, that every one in the region needs to be protected, the curfew should be 10 pm to 6 am with no operations after that, regardless.

I was surprised that the subject has not been discussed here yet. Loaded aircraft, most recently an LH A380., timed departure 22h10, was send back to the gate because the 11 pm deadline passed. Reason was one passenger not showing up, his bags had to be offloaded, after that, a warning lamp came on, they had to find the cause, which was a malfunctioning warning lamp and then it was a few minutes past 11pm. 520 people had their journey spoiled, missed sleep and no one would have noticed the take off of the most silent large aircraft available on the market. Thoink about the enourmous costs for the airline, If the 11pm curfew holds up in court the late evening bank of LH can no longer operate. I don't even want to think about what that can mean at the end of the day.

The reaction in the local discussion forums is, LH managers are idiots who cannot manage to send an aircraft out on time, Now, we here know who the idiots are and they don't work for LH.

We have mayors who complaoin that aircraft now fly over their territory, I once told one of the mayors to buy a flak. ( I am politically involved) Millions are wasted in court procedures on matters ICAO and the LBA and the DFS are the only ones who have saying at the end of the day.

Sure, FRA is located in a densely populated area, but it is the only location for such a hub, Frankfurt has always been the hub, the corss roads, starting in medieval times and with all modes of transport. There is no other place to re-locate this airport.

DFS is fully cooperative, in the article it says that after 2 month of experience with integrating traffic on the new runway they can now tackle the task of trying CDO. If that proves to be dpoable, we have pilots who are supporting noise abatement procedures because they live in the area. Many pilots of the most affected airline, LH Cargo, are enthusiastic about it. But again, you won't please people who get up at nights so they can hear the first aircraft flying over their house.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Loaded aircraft, most recently an LH A380., timed departure 22h10, was send back to the gate because the 11 pm deadline passed. Reason was one passenger not showing up, his bags had to be offloaded

   Blimey. I just checked in for my LH flight later today and I did wonder why they added a notice "please be at your gate in time because of the night curfew" to the boarding pass. Now I know.

The strict night curfew really needs to go. When is the next court decision due?



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9531 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Currently timed for march 17 or so. At the supreme administrative court in leipzig. That Kassel ruling came out of the blue yonder, no one was expecting that as by all means they should have waited for the Leipzig ruling.

The judge in Kassel freally did not know what he was doing. At least I hope so because had he known that passengers are sent back to the gates at1102 pm he would have ruled that delayed flights are allowed up until midnight. He should know now, he could have added a ruling to allow delayed flights. The fact hat he did not does not speak for him.

LH Cargo has to do idiotic things like flying a fully loaded MD11 each night to CGN, park it there for 3 or 4 hours, send the crew back to FRA and a fresh crew takes over to meet the Russian overflight slots and the Chinese landing slots, which could not be changed on short notice. Economic and ecologic lunacy, just because of a single judges ruling.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
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