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AF/KL Possible Large Operating Loss  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 10364 times:

Air France-KLM 2011 op loss seen 300 mln eur-report

Air France-KLM could post an operating loss of around 300 million euros ($392 million) in 2011 and even bigger losses in 2012 as economic woes and higher fuel prices take their toll, French daily Liberation reports.

Read more here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...3/air-france-idUSL6E7NN08T20111223


Sad if true. Seems like the struggles with operating cost for airlines will continue in the new year ... Was'nt aware that KLM / Air France struggled this much...

[Edited 2011-12-26 18:40:54]

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26136 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 10288 times:

Yes the AFKL group has issues which is leading to cuts and a strategy overhaul.

We've had a recent thread.
Air France KLM: Cuts To Costs And Capacity (by LHRFlyer Sep 5 2011 in Civil Aviation)



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

Doesnt KLM perform better than AF? I believe I read here on A.net that KLM is operating profitably while AF is the one making all the losses.


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10124 times:

Maybe this will finally make a few people think about truly streamlining this company.
I mean...Air France and KLM, the inefficiencies of two "separate" companies within one is just astounding. I don't even know where to start.
A reality check should force the issue but I doubt that it will.

If you want to keep the appearance of two companies on the outside, fine, knock yourself out. But within the company, AF and KL should practically be the same, in all sorts of departments. Sad news is: they aren't. Like night and day.
Precious Euro's are wasted on a daily basis just to keep a few french and dutch ego's in check.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3134 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9946 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 3):

If you want to keep the appearance of two companies on the outside, fine, knock yourself out. But within the company, AF and KL should practically be the same, in all sorts of departments. Sad news is: they aren't. Like night and day.

  

From an outsider perspective, it seems that this company hardly gets any synergies from the merger. Aircraft orders are separate, reservations systems are separate, etc. One could think that the only reason AF purchased KL was to disguise their operating losses...


User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9908 times:
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Quoting rwsea (Reply 4):
One could think that the only reason AF purchased KL was to disguise their operating losses...

There is a common misperception that AF bought KL ( just as many people mistakenly believe that BA purchased IB) . In fact both AF and KL are owned by the same holding company Air France-KLM. It is true that the former shareholders of AF own a bigger share in the holding company than the former shareholders of KL but it is still untrue to say that AF bought KL.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinevarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9801 times:

Quoting rwsea (Reply 4):
From an outsider perspective, it seems that this company hardly gets any synergies from the merger. Aircraft orders are separate, reservations systems are separate, etc. One could think that the only reason AF purchased KL was to disguise their operating losses...

When AF launched the online check-in module, it read "klm check in" in the internet address tab...so I guess at one point there are some synergies.
Aircraft orders are not that separate: it is decided by the AF-KL group what has to be ordered and the they dispatch between the 2 entities



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1692 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9659 times:

While AF used Altea for reservations, KL has abolished CORDA and uses Altea also nowadays; so, using 2 different reservationsystems is not correct...moreover, KLM will also change from CODECO to Altea Departure Control soon...


don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9099 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Air France-KLM could post an operating loss of around 300 million euros ($392 million) in 2011 and even bigger losses in 2012 as economic woes and higher fuel prices take their toll, French daily Liberation reports.

The Losses come from AF, not KLM. KLM benefits are rather good currently in fact.



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8863 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 8):
The Losses come from AF,

That does'nt really help KLM does it ? The two airlines don't have two seperate operating budgets, right ?


User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8651 times:

KL needed a critical size and now has it with AF. Before they decided to merge with AF they had looked at other possibilities, e.g. BA and they picked AF.

Both respect their respective country's sensitivity, and enjoy flying rights in thise countries.

They serve different markets too, with KL generally offering lower fares, another reson to operate differently.

Still there are many synergies, as described above.

It is not all bad.

AF is facing many difficulties: expensive oil and labor, low cost competition in Europe, Emirates for long haul...
They have to adapt to the market, it will take time, fortunately they can affprd a little time.

They are trying, more or less successfully:
- regional bases with cheaper staff and operating costs.
- cutting routes
- cheaper aircraft like the A380
- decreasing the operating cost of certain services such as premium services, while trying to maintain quality
- changing the offering mix, maybe first class will go as a result.

Hopefully they will find the right strategy... But they are noy idle.


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8498 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 8):
The Losses come from AF, not KLM. KLM benefits are rather good currently in fact.

People not alligned to KLM often claim that loses only come from AF. Some people forget that KL has announced its own cost reduction plan too.

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 10):
KL needed a critical size and now has it with AF. Before they decided to merge with AF they had looked at other possibilities, e.g. BA and they picked AF.

Both respect their respective country's sensitivity, and enjoy flying rights in thise countries.

They serve different markets too, with KL generally offering lower fares, another reson to operate differently.

Still there are many synergies, as described above.

It is not all bad.

AF is facing many difficulties: expensive oil and labor, low cost competition in Europe, Emirates for long haul...
They have to adapt to the market, it will take time, fortunately they can affprd a little time.

You are right!

[Edited 2011-12-27 05:51:47]

User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7897 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 8):
The Losses come from AF, not KLM. KLM benefits are rather good currently in fact.

Since these figures are pretty big, I wouldn't be surprised if KL contributes to losses as well.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 11):
People not alligned to KLM often claim that loses only come from AF. Some people forget that KL has announced its own cost reduction plan too.

Relax, cost reduction plan doesn't mean they are generating loss, does it? It's what even the most profitable companies do from time to time.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26136 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7103 times:

Frankly these companies such as AF-KL, IAG, LH Group need to do much more behind the scenes to generate synergy savings.

While the companies have opted to maintain multiple airline brands, maintaining executive and administrative offices in each country and duplicating many functions in every office is very costly. Departments like IT, reservations, finance, contracting, marketing/sales, human resources, etc need to be centralized more and work for the entire group and not only support a single carrier.

Yes combining things will create many redundancies, however as for profit organizations they need to become leaner and more efficient.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7029 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
While the companies have opted to maintain multiple airline brands, maintaining executive and administrative offices in each country and duplicating many functions in every office is very costly.

There's not much of a way around this when you're made up of staff coming from two different countries. It's a very political issue, and Europeans are very sensitive to the idea of another "country" taking over "their" airline. When we have mergers in the US, we're not as focused on whether or not we're keeping everyone in jobs. After a merger, most Americans are expected to pick up and move to another state, where everyone else speaks their language. This may be a difficult transition for most, but it is somewhat more concievable than for the Spanish at IB headquarters to adjust to life in London or those based at BA headquarters to pick up and move to Madrid. Of course, this situation lets everyone keep their job and life intact after the merger, which often does not happen in the States...

[Edited 2011-12-27 10:12:48]

[Edited 2011-12-27 10:13:26]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26136 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6956 times:

Europe has many examples of multinational companies that work across borders as single entities.

Consolidation is nothing new in Europe and working across borders had only gotten ever easier in the last few decades. Add in benefits of technology, one does not need as strong physical presence in each country as if these were stand alone businesses.

Anyhow - my point is not that you move people from Holland to France or vice-versa, is that you eliminate certain functions completely in some places. Simply relocating them does not solve a cost problem.

Sure issues like ego's and unions might make if more difficult at AFKL, however ultimately running two full companies without significant back end synergy is not a model for success.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8763 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 14):
Of course, this situation lets everyone keep their job and life intact after the merger, which often does not happen in the States...

They have jobs now, but if a company can't break even while doing best practices, eventually it will become a matter for the courtroom to decide on behalf of creditors. They come first and political symbolism and dreams come second at least here in the US. We will see if Europe really is deregulated. If they do have a free market, it will shake out the regionalism eventually. It serves little purpose for the flying public. Language and culture, yes. Is it enough to survive?.. watch balance sheets to find out ~~


User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6702 times:

AF/KL has to do a better job. I understand that the Economic climate and Emirates must be killing them. But they have to improve their service.


1. Toss KLM's MD-11. I can't believe a major airline is still flying an antique like this. Even on the popular routes like JFK-AMS.

2. Air France failed to put flat Business Class seats on their planes (even the A380) so people would rather turn to other airlines.


3. Many Skyteam airlines fail to unify their relationships with one another (except DL with AF/KL). For example, AF/KL partnership with Korean, China Airlines ,China Eastern, China Southern and Vietnam Airlines is Not that strong. They don't even have an effective reservation system with partner airlines. For all Skyteam Members they have to catch up to Star Alliance.



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6361 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Frankly these companies such as AF-KL, IAG, LH Group need to do much more behind the scenes to generate synergy savings.

I can see that this statement might be valid for AF-KL & LH group, but IAG has only been in existence for a few months, we need to wait and see if they acheive the savings they promised from the amalgamation.


User currently offlineroberts87 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2011, 1030 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 17):
1. Toss KLM's MD-11. I can't believe a major airline is still flying an antique like this. Even on the popular routes like JFK-AMS.

What's wrong with the MD-11's? They've recently been refurbished, and have the same seats up front and in the back as the newer 777's. If I'm not mistaken, most of KL MD-11's are even newer then the 744's.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 17):
2. Air France failed to put flat Business Class seats on their planes (even the A380) so people would rather turn to other airlines.

I believe the group has ordered new fully lie flat seats for AF and KL.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 17):
3. Many Skyteam airlines fail to unify their relationships with one another (except DL with AF/KL). For example, AF/KL partnership with Korean, China Airlines ,China Eastern, China Southern and Vietnam Airlines is Not that strong. They don't even have an effective reservation system with partner airlines. For all Skyteam Members they have to catch up to Star Alliance.

That I agree. I've been travelling a lot recently, and Star Alliance feels more like an alliance - more integrated - then Skyteam.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6011 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 17):
I can't believe a major airline is still flying an antique like this. Even on the popular routes like JFK-AMS.

The MD11 doesn't fly JFK-AMS. KL uses the 744/74E or 77E/77W on JFK-AMS.

Quoting roberts87 (Reply 19):
I believe the group has ordered new fully lie flat seats for AF and KL.

I don't believe any public announcement or mention has been made of AF getting flat bed J seats.


User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5824 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
There is a common misperception that AF bought KL ( just as many people mistakenly believe that BA purchased IB) . In fact both AF and KL are owned by the same holding company Air France-KLM. It is true that the former shareholders of AF own a bigger share in the holding company than the former shareholders of KL but it is still untrue to say that AF bought KL.

Please! Just like there is a holding company for America West and US Airways of which America West holds the majority share. Are you really telling me that America West didn't buy US Airways?

This is all technical. AF bought KL. Period. How you decide to structure the new company is up to you.



I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5741 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 9):
That does'nt really help KLM does it ? The two airlines don't have two separate operating budgets, right ?
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 11):
People not aligned to KLM often claim that loses only come from AF. Some people forget that KL has announced its own cost reduction plan too.

Both airlines have separate ops budget, but considering both results separately, KLM performs much better than AF does.
And it's a non secret that AF have proportionally bigger operating costs, this due to a different social law, a strong and bad union influence, and a much higher working class cost. Tax system is also a big problem for AF. We often laugh about it saying that AF should move its social base to Holland.
Anyway, KLM has much lower operating costs, and before this downturn in worldwide economy, KLM used to fill the hole that AF was digging.

Now this is a group logic, even if in order to cool down nationalist thoughts during the merger, both airlines kept their own identity, along with two separate ways to work.

I think that this split can be a luck for AF now, to get inspired from a way to work and to consider work that is much more efficient from our Dutch friends than French.
Unions can't be denying economical facts in France, and should get a more conscious behavior. One would say this is Utopia, but all those social moves, strikes and so on, are shocking especially during these bad times for a whole economic context. People, and particularly customers just don't get the french unions attitude. This gets people consider other carriers to fly, than AF. I do feel ashamed sometimes to be, well against myself, part of this circus.

CDG keeps on being the worst hub ever, and this for the 10th consecutive year. This is something that officials try to keep hidden, but this is a fact. And CDG cannot continue in this way without any consequence. This airport is a true nightmare for passengers. And things will get even worse when opening the S4.

For many reasons, AF has to take KLM work as an example, and has to improve.

I'm really frustrated and worried about many AF employees attitude today.
AF is not invulnerable, and the airline has to make big efforts to stay up against competitors, at the same level of service at least.



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4475 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

Anyone here know, what will be the total pax carried for KL in 2011?

User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 17):

1. Toss KLM's MD-11. I can't believe a major airline is still flying an antique like this. Even on the popular routes like JFK-AMS.

I just booked a March flight from AMS-ATL. It is scheduled with a MD-11. Interesting acft for Hub-Hub. Sheds light on the death of MIA-AMS on KL.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 17):
2. Air France failed to put flat Business Class seats on their planes (even the A380) so people would rather turn to other airlines.

It is amazing that its taking this long, but AF has alot of other problems. None smaller than the aftermath of the A330 loss with all that has been made public and written. Are some in the press and travelers as well questioning AF training and safety? What is the impact on sales?



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
25 MaverickM11 : What exactly was the purpose of the merger/sale/whatever you want to call it if there was no consolidation behind the scenes? Why not? AF is having tr
26 pspfan : Since AMS and CDG are partners now, hopefully some things will change. I can tel you that they are learning some very basic things from eachother. PS
27 varig md-11 : At any rate, for the employees based in France AF-KL would have to pay French social contributions (cf U2 court case about their ORY UK contract staf
28 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Well, yes. However, I'm hearing that spare parts are hard to get by to for reasonable prices. Looking at the new summer schedule for the MD-11, it is
29 Post contains images mikey72 : Big deal ! London has.. QR..2xA346, 1x77W and 1xA333. EK..2xA388, 2x773, 4x77W !!! That's 12 daily departures compared to 5 at Paris. You don't say !
30 PezySPU : Fuel and maintenance costs? Yes, that is a very difficult problem many airlines are experiencing - finding themselves in the middle, trying to compet
31 mikey72 : Look short-haul is knackered for legacy carriers around the globe.....it just feeds their long-haul ops at best. End of. Long-haul is a different mat
32 EPA001 : Rubbish. And this explains why AF (and KLM) have so many B777's and B77W's?
33 staralliance85 : What's wrong with the MD-11's? They've recently been refurbished, and have the same seats up front and in the back as the newer 777's. If I'm not mis
34 Mortyman : Please state WHY " it's like driving a 1980 Pinto around ". You don't seem to have a good explenation other than the fact that you apparently don't l
35 mikey72 : 777's aren't made in France. Would of looked a bit odd if AF hadn't ordered any A380's. Besides I said 'delay delivery' I didn't say 'not order' or '
36 varig md-11 : I really don't see the necessity of being aggressive in your posts....what does it have to do with anything when you talk about EADS and French gov p
37 mikey72 : Who's being aggressive ? Now is not the economically right time for a loss-making airline to be introducing the worlds largest passenger jet to its f
38 shamrock604 : This AF only bought the 380 cos it French thing is ridiculous, and shows a lack of knowledge about the structure of AF's long haul network. The A380 i
39 varig md-11 : You are wrong big time: if by introducing an A380 on JFK or JNB you replace two 772 (which is the case for AF) you generate savings and not losses. E
40 mikey72 : Well actually I am bemused as to why with only 6 A380's currently in service they put one of them on the JFK ? Yes you do but in these austere times
41 shamrock604 : Because it fits in the schedule between longer haul flights and allows maximum utilisation of the aircraft, and allows them to cut two flights to one
42 UALWN : Do you mean that it is not the right time to introduce the airplane with the lower CASM? Really? Do you have any information to back that up? Or is i
43 shamrock604 : I think we are just dealing with some nationalistic chest beating here. In some quarters AF = FRANCE = AIRBUS, therefore AF ordering A380 = nationalis
44 mikey72 : Well I did say 'delay' and not 'stop'...big difference. And the 773 doesn't ? JFK is a route that demands frequency...even from CDG. It is never wron
45 UALWN : Err, they didn't before AF and LH started getting 380s! I don't know. But I wonder if the abysmal financial performance of BA in the last few years c
46 shamrock604 : Why should they have delayed it? So their competitors can get there hands on it faster? I meant that JFK fits nicely in the schedule between other A3
47 varig md-11 : If by "funded" you mean DXB corp launched the ailrine and put €€€ on the table to buy 50 something A380, well I guess so. If by funded, you mea
48 mikey72 : AF posted an operating loss of 300M in 2011 with worse to come in 2012. The year before last they posted a loss of 1.6B. LH wants to save 1.5B in the
49 shamrock604 : Ah, now you are skipping around the point. You said that AF are not getting the aircraft "gratis". I simply stated that neither were BA. You will als
50 PW100 : . Maybe because: . Maybe bacause they saw more benefit in the 2013 model, which will have the next block point of improvements: reduced airframe weig
51 Post contains images mikey72 : Oops - oh yeah - I forgot about that ! Didn't know that either ! Nah - maybe you're right. Oh well, kept me busy while there was nothing on the TV !
52 Post contains images cmf : How on earth does the one time event of the Olympics justify decades long investments? That seems as illogical as most of your other arguments.
53 Post contains links UALWN : They did not. In their latest report AF/KL reported an operating profit for 2010/2011 of €120M, and total profit of €613M . See here: http://www.
54 mikey72 : KL were not in the equation. Look I really don't want to get into a pi**ing contest with you. You brought up profits. In the last 10 years BA have tur
55 mikey72 : You're American cmf ? I've got two word for you..... 'chapter eleven' Anyway, where was I... The investment was already made. Decades long-investment
56 UALWN : Indeed. I wonder what does this have to do with this discussion. How can they not be in the equation if AF and KL are one company? Either that or the
57 mikey72 : We are discussing why AF/KL will report a loss and you did accuse me of... They are owned by one company are they not ? You do remember what happened
58 Post contains images PM : I haven't read through this whole post (so my apologies if someone else has made the point) but haven't numerous US airline mergers been rather night
59 mikey72 : 'cmf'..... I would just add that in the last 20 years the USA have lost Pan Am, TWA and every single one of your surviving legacy carriers has gone bu
60 Post contains images mikey72 : BA were enjoying their 'salad days' during this period and made unacceptable demands of KL which they rightly couldn't concede to. It's a shame becaus
61 UALWN : Exactly. That's why I thought it was reasonable to count in the 22 744s and 74Ms that KL operates. I am aware. I guess it has had an impact on BA. As
62 cmf : What does my nationality have to do with anything? And what are those two words supposed to mean in the context? Seems like just random statements th
63 Post contains images mikey72 : I am uneducated with regards this forum. I'm a fanboy not an airilne analyst. I had to google 'CASM' yesterday ! Hehe I didn't say that !!! However i
64 mikey72 : Because being American.... i.e being American is not the issue....the recent history of the American airline industry is ! It's not exactly been plai
65 cmf : Neither a fan nor an analyst does any favors by throwing out blatantly illogical statements to everything. Better to sit back and get some experience
66 mikey72 : Maybe but I'm afarid that's never been my style. LOL - No I didn't. Where in the above statement do I say BA ordered their A380's because of the Olym
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