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25 Years Of Progress (?)  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4472 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7517 times:

As we head into 2012, it's always fun to look back and see how far we have come. For example, on EWR-ORD 25 years ago AA flew DC-10s, today it's CR7s.

Yes, we've gone from this:


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Photo © Stefan Ottosson



to this:


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Photo © Andy Egloff




:-(

[Edited 2011-12-28 14:38:52]

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7519 times:

True, but air fares relative to costs and inflation have gone from this: $$$$$$$$$$$$ to this: $$$


Word
User currently offlinebeachbum1970 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7437 times:

Also, from Concordes and wide-bodies crossing the Atlantic back to narrow-body 757s. One thing they got right though: NO SMOKING!

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

I agree with cabin service with food and I'm guessing leg room. But IFE is 100% better and the most important thing of all.
SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY. It has never been safer to fly on an airplane and it continues to become safer. That is what matters most. Along with much more fuel efficient airplanes I think progress has been great besides for some cabin service items. Even then first class 25 years ago is no where near as nice as first now.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7190 times:

LF also averaged 60-70% on any given segment and said DC-10s most likey continued somewhere. There are far more non-stop options today than 25 years ago and I think people don't take this into consideration when talking about a/c size. "Yesterday" there were more XXX-XXX-XXX (and even an additional XXX) than all the non-stop options we have available today. And I will have to second

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 1):

Relative to inflation, air travel has essentially gotten cheaper. $150, 20 years ago was more more money than $150 today. I can do JFK-SFO rt for $340 all in, for travel in 2 weeks. I may be of a new generaton but i'm still not sold on the whole "mainline vs RJ" thing. As long as the thing will get me there safely, I really don't care and quite frankly, I'll take a CRJ-200 on certain routes over a pakced 737 in the middle seat.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
I agree with cabin service with food and I'm guessing leg room. But IFE is 100% better and the most important thing of all.
SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY. It has never been safer to fly on an airplane and it continues to become safer. That is what matters most. Along with much more fuel efficient airplanes I think progress has been great besides for some cabin service items. Even then first class 25 years ago is no where near as nice as first now.

IFE may be better but thats it.... As far as first class depends on the airline. As far as travel no way is it better today. I wish I could go back in time. Travel today thanks to the radical islamists is miserable at best. I just flew last week to RSW from MEM and in MEM we have a full body scanner so I empty all my pockets take my shoes off belt off and expose myself to the scanner and I forgot a tissue paper in my pocket so now I get not only a radiation scan but now I get a full pat down on top of it.. I was so pissed and I am a pretty reasonable person and always go through the motions. I will tell you what I will not fly anymore out of MEM. I will drive to LIT or BNA or drive all together. Yeah flying is a real joy now...NOT!!!!! And what do you know about first class 25 yrs ago you are in the 21 to 25 age bracket on your profile so how can you make any kind of judgement.

[Edited 2011-12-28 21:09:47]

[Edited 2011-12-28 21:13:37]


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7173 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
Even then first class 25 years ago is no where near as nice as first now.



Please see my above post. I'm right with you but i'd have to disagree here. Heck, I can remember getting a FULL HOT MEAL on ATL-MCO. DL use to serve a small side salad alongside their awful smelling garlic lasagna. It would light up the whole a/c when they got the ovens going! Keep in mind this was just Y; a full hot meal on a 1 hr flight in Y. Domestic F use to truly be a first class experience. The "bells and whistles" has improved but the core experience is much different and very much lacking.

[Edited 2011-12-28 21:12:29]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4472 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 5):
And what do you know about first class 25 yrs ago you are in the 21 to 25 age bracket on your profile so how can you make any kind of judgement.

A little snippy there, no? Anyway, anyone who has even just one eye can use the a.net database and look at pics of F going back 10, 20, 30 and 40 years and compare them to today's "sky suites" and realize that F is in many ways better today than in the past.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31009 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6854 times:
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In addition to what FlyASAGuy2005 noted in Reply 4, I expect EWR and ORD also drew from a much larger geographic area that didn't have more convenient options for air service. The Airline Deregulation Act had also been in effect for less than a decade so I expect that travel options between city-pairs were much more restrictive then as opposed to now.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6335 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 5):

I said food and service WERE better back then. But you can't compare reclining seats with lie flat first class suites we have now. I know what first class was like 25 years ago because I have flown on planes which have not change in 25 years. I have seen pictures. If you read what I wrote I said service and food were better.

Again though I will take our improved safety and cheaper flights over how it was 25 years ago. A major fatal incident every year, Highjackings were not unusual, and the technology was no where near the level it is at today. It's been a give and take.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3505 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6269 times:

If you could find a way to keep widebody service on a domestic route like this with today's fuel prices/market, you wouldn't be wasting your time posting nostalgia threads on a.net. This has nothing to do with "progress"--it's simple economics. We all love domestic widebodies/supersonic pond-hops/all 747 for everything, but those days are gone forever. Don't like it?--try talking the flying public into paying at least twice what they're paying now for an ORD-EWR ticket. Let us know how that works out.


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlinePeterJ From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

Defining progress is a pesky thing isn't it? It is all on how you look at it. To the person who prefers a lot of frequencies, than a tremendous amount of progress has been made.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 1):
True, but air fares relative to costs and inflation have gone from this: $$$$$$$$$$$$ to this: $$$

This is the biggest one to me. Air travel is no longer just for the elite. Last year I took a day trip to Los Angeles from Massachusetts, something I don't think would have been easy 25 years ago.

I will throw my two cents in on wide vs narrow body: I have flown domestically on wide bodies on UA, and AC. I suppose it felt more spacious but the experience was no different. In fact I will take a UA 319 over a ratty 767 any day.

Everything is always going to change, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. Everyone is always going to have their own opinion. (If that weren't the case we wouldn't have reason to come on here and talk about it all the time!)


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5567 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
Even then first class 25 years ago is no where near as nice as first now.

I'm not so sure about that. The seat/suite maybe more comfortable but the glamour is gone...on any airline. Just ask anyone that was crew 25 years ago.

Actually the further you go back the better it gets....(maybe more than 25 years though you think)....




Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 5):
As far as first class depends on the airline.

Go back an look at business and first class seats as recently as 2000 or so. We are miles ahead of that now.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 10):
This has nothing to do with "progress"--it's simple economics.

  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 5):
...NOT!!!!! And what do you know about first class 25 yrs ago you are in the 21 to 25 age bracket on your profile so how can you make any kind of judgement.

First isn't as good as it was 10 years ago. Now, serving carts are typical. Before 9/11, the F/As carried trays from the galley to the seats. It's been since the late 90s that AA offered filet mignon as a dinner entree in domestic first. And with the tightenting of the turnaround at airports, it's hit or miss on predeparture beverage.


Quoting stratosphere (Reply 5):
As far as travel no way is it better today. I wish I could go back in time. Travel today thanks to the radical islamists is miserable at best. I just flew last week to RSW from MEM and in MEM we have a full body scanner so I empty all my pockets take my shoes off belt off and expose myself to the scanner and I forgot a tissue paper in my pocket so now I get not only a radiation scan but now I get a full pat down on top of it.

I agree. Once I got one thigh patted down after going through the body scanner, and I had removed everything from my pockets, including such non-metallic items as my Chapstick and my hankerchief. My guess is that a seam in my pant leg was rolled over about halfway down, and the screener or machine saw that as some kind of anamoly.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

Nearly thirty years years ago, I flew MAA-SFO RT on PanAm for about $1,000. I had to fly MAA-HYD-DEL on Indian Airlines, with an overnight stop in DEL due to late arrival of flight. I then took the DEL-stop in Pakistan-FRA-LAX-SFO on PanAm. It was one long flight as we missed the FRA-LAX flight due to late arrival of DEL-FRA flight and had to stay overnight at FRA(at PanAm's expense).

I am sure one could get RT MAA-SFO for about $1,800. Assuming an average inflation rate of 3% over the last 30 years, the current fare in real terms is less than what I paid nearly thirty years ago. This is before one assigns value to time lost on multi-stop flights.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31009 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4695 times:
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Quoting ckfred (Reply 14):
(Domestic) First isn't as good as it was 10 years ago.

So true.  


User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 14):
First isn't as good as it was 10 years ago.

Who cares? The only routes long enough where it even matters are ones where they use international birds anyhow. And you can talk about better service and catering all day long...guess you need that when you have to sit up for 10 hours because the flat-bed seat won't be introduced for a while.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 5):
And what do you know about first class 25 yrs ago you are in the 21 to 25 age bracket on your profile so how can you make any kind of judgement.

Nope, clearly nobody can form any kind of opinion on anything they did not experience first hand. This is why nobody knows anything about the Civil War, or believes any part the Bible.  
Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
on EWR-ORD 25 years ago AA flew DC-10s, today it's CR7s.

And I don't care for CRJs of any variety either, but when you can fly that route roundtrip for around $120 all-in, I really couldn't care less.


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4371 times:

I will say international F or J has been as good as it has ever been (at least on foreign carriers). On flyertalk there is a thread where people either scanned or transcribed the menus from flights in the good old days (even F menus on airlines that no longer offer F like PR, KL etc). In all honesty it is very similar to what is offered today. Lounges are far better today than back in the 60's.

You have to understand though that what the airlines did back then was unsustainable into more modern times, health care was nothing, retirement obligations were low, and the biggest factor JET FUEL. Crude was usually less than $20 (in 2010 dollars) a barrel until the 70's. Ticket prices have stayed the same but one of the biggest expenses essentially quintupled these years, somthing has to give. It is also for that reason why they do not fly half empty wide bodies on relatively short domestic routes.

There were aspects to flying back in the day that were awesome ( I would love to be able to smoke after a nice dinner in F), but I would rather have a sustainable industry where regular people like me can afford to fly to all reaches of the globe.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4220 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 14):

I fly domestic first quite a bit and to be fair, I've never seen any carrier I fly on pull carts in the aisle to serve food. It can take quite a while to get served on a 757 or 767 but its still about perception.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31009 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3948 times:
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Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
I fly domestic first quite a bit and to be fair, I've never seen any carrier I fly on pull carts in the aisle to serve food. It can take quite a while to get served on a 757 or 767 but its still about perception.

I've seen desert carts brought out, but never for the appetizer / meal. As you noted, those are always served directly by tray from the galley.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3923 times:

Weird. Cart service is considered more refined by many, unless you are referring to pre-prepared all on one tray with racked trays a la Y carts.

Having an array of dishes that you mix and match from is a bit old-fashioned. I think that actually appeals to a lot of people.

Also, I think it's pretty hard to make generalizations as US/EU domestic and international service levels have diverged so sharply. I think that was much less the case 25 years ago.

[Edited 2011-12-29 16:03:55]

User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
A little snippy there, no? Anyway, anyone who has even just one eye can use the a.net database and look at pics of F going back 10, 20, 30 and 40 years and compare them to today's "sky suites" and realize that F is in many ways better today than in the past.

Yep agree sky suites are cool but that is international first..But I stand by my statement travel was better in the past. I cant stand flying anymore and that wasn't the case when I was flying in the 70's and 80's.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Again though I will take our improved safety and cheaper flights over how it was 25 years ago. A major fatal incident every year, Highjackings were not unusual, and the technology was no where near the level it is at today. It's been a give and take.

Will agree technology has made travel safer. We have TCAS and GPWS and great autopilot systems now. But we had hijackings way back then but it was pretty straight forward they wanted to go to Cuba and were not looking to down the aircraft like today. I don't know all I know is for me it is not fun anymore. Even airplanes today are boring all twin jets. I am glad I got to ride the 707's and DC-8's and the L1011 and DC-10 and 727. I remember you could go anywhere when I worked for NW it was mainline a/c now today it is all RJ's. Nope flying today you can have it....



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 23):

Ill take it . And to much contention of others, my favorite a/c is the CR7. Nothing sweeter than hearing those engines spool up then down to idle from the outside if your close. It gives off a very distinctive hum/shrill noise that I can't even describe but guys that are around the 7s/9s will know what I'm talking about.



What gets measured gets done.
25 PITrules : Care to look at those pics again? In the DC-10 pic, I see 8 across seating with no overhead bins for the poor souls confined to the middle section. O
26 FlyASAGuy2005 : "Roll-aboards" did not even exist at the time this pic was taken. The only thing going in those bins were coats, hats, purses, and briefcases. So, ce
27 tharanga : Why do people get so emotional about taking widebodies? The comfort of your particular seat is more important than how wide the plane is. After all, p
28 N62NA : Not so. If you put an AA flagship suite in an ERJ-135 you would still realize you are in a very narrow tube. A standard coach seat in a widebody is a
29 sandyb123 : Maybe on north amercican domestic but in the rest of the world (especially in the east) this isn't the case. I personally feel that flying in all cab
30 tharanga : So people hate flying in private jets? I think a CRJ-700 in a two-across cabin would be quite a nice ride. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
31 Post contains links and images N62NA : There's private jets... View Large View MediumPhoto © Chris de Stefani - airphototicino and then there's private jets: View Large View MediumPhoto
32 Post contains links and images FlyASAGuy2005 : ...and then there's private jets Ha!! Child's play.. Trump hasn't quite graduated to Roman's level View Large View MediumPhoto © Eerebout Stefaan
33 Post contains links and images UAL747 : You could also say we've gone from this: View Large View MediumPhoto © Dave Mills - Visual Approach to this: View Large View MediumPhoto © Stuart La
34 Post contains images nonrevman : The widebody probably provides the illusion of more space since it is such a large airplane compared to the rest. You are right though, they offer no
35 tdscanuck : It's absolutely possible. It's just economically out of reach of nearly everyone. People keep bringing Concorde up as some kind of example of technol
36 tharanga : Agreed - I thought the middle seat of the middle section on a 2-5-2 economy section in a L-1011 was quite miserable, so having that gone seems like p
37 delimit : The perception of decline of Y has far more to do with full cabins than it does with the lack of amenities. Flying Y is miserable because nowadays it'
38 N62NA : I believe he was saying the same thing as you. OAG, July 1, 1976 (all fare round-trip, one way is half of fare shown) NYC - LAX: F $602 Y $396 NYC -
39 N62NA : Thanks to a.net member VonRichtofen here are what those 1976 fares would be in today's U.S. dollars: NYC - LAX: F $2,377 Y $1,563 NYC - MIA: F $1,216
40 BoeingGuy : Thankfully, accidents like PSA 182, Aeromexico, DL 191 and AA 965 will probably never happen again in the developed world. Yeah, and now it's EGPWS (
41 Post contains images seabosdca : But hardly anyone buys the walk-up fares you listed today. They are 2x to 4x the fares purchased by the vast majority of travelers, which are in disc
42 N62NA : 25 years ago AA had 6 nonstops EWR-ORD, 2 of which were DC-10s, 2 MD-80s and 2 727-200s. Today it's 8 CR7s. Yeah, but I figured in order to do an app
43 doulasc : if flight meals in Y,flying Delta,Eastern and TWA in my younger years in the 1970s.People complained about airline food. I always thought meals were v
44 seabosdca : Fair point. But this market is the worst-case scenario: one that has been increasingly dominated by stronger competition (UA/CO and now the new UA).
45 AADC10 : Note that the DC-10 is eight abreast. While 25 years ago was a few years into deregulation, there was a steady slide toward 1991. There was a bounce
46 n92r03 : I'm with all of you who remember flying a DL L-1011 from TPA to ATL or even LAX to SAN, those were the days. But, there were no 30 minute turns either
47 Viscount724 : Based on the February 1985 OAG (27 years ago) there were actually more daily flights (all carriers combined) EWR-ORD than today (27 vs. 23). And ther
48 doulasc : I agree with you.In the 1950s when you traveled by air you had to dress like you were going to church.Today people get on the plane dressed for the b
49 BoeingGuy : Yeah, or a skimply rock and roll muscle shirt showing some dude's tatoos all over his shoulders. Don't some people have a little bit of pride and res
50 Post contains images N62NA : Yep. A few years ago I predicted on here that AA would "soon" be running RJs on EWR-ORD and I was met with snickers. I also said at the time that if
51 seabosdca : Forgot about those guys...
52 SEPilot : There are two things that have changed drastically in the last 25 years-the first is safety and the second is the number of people flying. The vast in
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