aviatorcraig From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2010, 83 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8699 times:
On other threads I have read of the existence of a "perimeter rule" at LGA and DCA requiring arriving (commercial?) aircraft to have originated from within a maximum distance from the airport.
It is usually goes something like:
Q. Will BA extend its LCY ops to LGA/DCA?
Ans. No, because of the perimeter rule at these airports...
I have searched the Db but cannot find anything specific about it and not wanting to hijack another thread, can anyone tell me a bit more about these perimeter rules and their purpose.
1. How long have they been in existence?
2. Are they flexible or cast in stone?
3. Do they apply to non-airline flights e.g. business jets?
4. Are any other airports likely to get them (or have them already)?
5. Last but not least... WHY?
Boeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 320 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8645 times:
Congestion, Congress opened Dulles up in the 1960's due to people complaining of the noise of jets and not enough carriers were switching their service. So the perimeter rule was the only way to get them to move.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10561 posts, RR: 53 Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8625 times:
The DCA perimeter rule was ostensibly set up for two reasons: 1) to promote usage of the new Washington Dulles Airport for long range travel, and 2) to cut down on the noise in neighboring areas (notably Old Town Alexandria) in the early and LOUD days of the Jet Age.
The DCA perimeter was first set in 1969. It is not flexible, however it has been expanded a few times over the years due to various reasons. (My favorite was AA lobbying to have it expanded to 1200 so they could fly to DFW at 1192 miles, but not far enough for Continental to fly to IAH at 1208 miles. It was eventually expanded to its current 1250 miles in 1987. Additionally, Congress has granted 12 "beyond perimeter" slots, allowing chosen airlines to fly to LAX, PHX, LAS, SLC, DEN and SEA.
knope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2555 posts, RR: 31 Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8601 times:
Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 1):
No, they are a tad bit flexible. Certain carriers do apply for exemptions to the perimeter rule.
Yes, although it's more a matter of this happening from the "supply" side of things rather than the "demand" side.
On rather limited occasion the DoT has decided to open up (supply) a limited number of specific exemptions, and then airlines can go after them. It's not generally a matter of airlines requesting exceptions and if the demand is enough the DoT granting them.
At LGA the perimeter rule does not apply on Saturday, and flights to DEN are allowed every day despite falling outside the perimeter, as it was served nonstop from LGA before the rule was implemented.At DCA there are 12 perimeter exemption slots.
Other than that, the perimeters are cast in stone.
Quoting aviatorcraig (Thread starter): 4. Are any other airports likely to get them (or have them already)?
DAL has something similar (the Wright Amendment) that restricts jets to no more than ~50 seats on flights to non-neighboring (plus a few more) states, but that is slowly being phased out. Considering how unpopular perimeter rules are with airlines, and frequently with politicians in states that fall outside the perimeter, I don't see anymore being added. Rather it is more likely that airports will just be placed under general slot control.
At LGA it was basically to control growing overcrowding at the small airport by forcing airlines to use other NYC airports more. Boeing773ER covered the DCA reasoning.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8147 times:
Like he said, the present DCA perimeter dates from around 1987. It was 1000 miles before that; when it started in 1966 (i.e. when jets arrived at DCA) it was 650 miles with about eight exceptions, all less than 1000 miles.
bohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2411 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7942 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 2): (My favorite was AA lobbying to have it expanded to 1200 so they could fly to DFW at 1192 miles, but not far enough for Continental to fly to IAH at 1208 miles. It was eventually expanded to its current 1250 miles in 1987.
IIRC the Speaker of the House in 1987 was from Texas and the perimeter was "coincidently" expanded at that time allowing him to fly home nonstop from DCA.
washingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7916 times:
I could understand the logic of the perimeter rule back in the day, but am strongly opposed to it as it exists now. I'm all for letting market forces play out here. There will still be a limited number of slots at DCA; the marketplace can decide how they are best allocated. I somehow doubt it will be non-stop RJ flights to secondary destinations though...
Ditto longhaul flights. There will still be a strong demand for west coast flights out of Dulles without a perimeter rule. Without the artificial perimeter restriction, airlines can offer capacity and price seats better at both airports. In short, everyone wins except.......the politicians who will lose their non-stop RJ flights to their hometowns.
I also always find it ironic how opponents of DCA flights are still stuck in a 1970s mindset. Longer distance flights does not equal louder flights. See that US Airways A-320 on its way to Phoenix? It's a lot quieter than that American MD-80 on its way to Chicago.
capitalflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 257 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7816 times:
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 9): See that US Airways A-320 on its way to Phoenix? It's a lot quieter than that American MD-80 on its way to Chicago
Very true. Somehow the mad dogs make it within noise limits (no doubt just barely, and as a result of heavy lobbying by MD back in the day).
I think the perimeter rule should go too. The field limits the size of equipment to 757/A320, although DL brought in a 767 during the inauguration in '09. Perhaps a bargaining chip with locals who no doubt would resist any change would be to lower noise limits to effectively ban MD80s/DC9s from coming to DCA in exchange for eliminating the perimeter.
With slot limits IAD will remain protected domestically (whether it needs to be is another question) and has a robust and growing international segment as well.
spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3255 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7678 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 7): And we all know how well that turned out.
It turned out pretty well, in fact. Look at the state of both EWR and JFK in 1984 compared to now. The fact is LGA was incapable of supporting the amount of traffic airlines were increasingly demanding of it, and JFK and EWR had excess capacity. The perimeter rule did go a long way towards promoting the use of both EWR and JFK for long distance flights. LGA's traffic has remained relatively flat while EWR and JFK have boomed, and that was exactly the goal.
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F9fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 689 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7661 times:
If it wasn't for congress, DCA would have been closed for security reasons. I believe it was the last airport to reopen after 9/11, and then with special security rules (no one out of their seats the first or last 30 minutes of a flight or they automatically had to divert).
Anyway, the exemptions at DCA are granted by the USDOT and they are supposed to prioritize LCCs. This is why F9 got its slots. IIRC, the initial cities were PHX (see McCain, John), LAS (lobbyists needed to go someplace with you know who), DEN, and I think either SFO or LAX.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4402 posts, RR: 37 Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7480 times:
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 9): I could understand the logic of the perimeter rule back in the day, but am strongly opposed to it as it exists now. I'm all for letting market forces play out here. There will still be a limited number of slots at DCA; the marketplace can decide how they are best allocated. I somehow doubt it will be non-stop RJ flights to secondary destinations though...
Fortunately, MWAA and elected officials do not share that purely laissez-faire thinking. Airports are *public* facilities, and maximizing airline profit is not the only consideration. The current arrangement of a perimeter plus some exemption slots ensures that the broadest selection of markets gets a share of access to a limited public resource. Airports are public facilities to be operated for the common good. That's a good, fair system and it should stay.
Smaller markets get screwed enough. They deserve a share of access to LGA and DCA, and can make money on it; otherwise US and DL wouldn't have wanted a slot swap to maximize their networks' use of the airports with their existing restrictions. Thankfully elected officials will ensure that that access continues.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12562 posts, RR: 64 Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7461 times:
Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 1): In 1999 AW applied for non-stop PHX-DCA, but IIRC AS got the exception.
HP (not AW) applied for and was granted PHX-DCA; McCain helped get that through. AS didn't get their first beyond-the-perimeter exception until 2001, with SEA-DCA service commencing the week prior to 9/11.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6365 posts, RR: 34 Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5092 times:
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 9): Ditto longhaul flights. There will still be a strong demand for west coast flights out of Dulles without a perimeter rule. Without the artificial perimeter restriction, airlines can offer capacity and price seats better at both airports.
Simply untrue. The market for within-perimeter non-stop service shows that seats and flights broadly favor DCA over IAD. We'd likely see roughly two-thirds of the seats in beyond-perimeter markets shift to DCA vs. IAD. In a medium-haul market like DFW-WAS, AA offers twice as many flights to DCA as they do to IAD.
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 3): On rather limited occasion the DoT has decided to open up (supply) a limited number of specific exemptions, and then airlines can go after them.
Actually, the Congress decided to open up these exemptions; DoT simply administers the process of choosing the carriers which receive the exceptions.
Quoting polot (Reply 4): At LGA the perimeter rule does not apply on Saturday, and flights to DEN are allowed every day despite falling outside the perimeter, as it was served nonstop from LGA before the rule was implemented.At DCA there are 12 perimeter exemption slots.
Other than that, the perimeters are cast in stone.
The perimeter at LGA isn't exactly carved in stone. It is essentially a policy of the Port Authority which can be changed if its Board of Commissioners were to choose to do so. The courts have found that the Authority, as the proprietor of a multiple-airport system, has the right to limit operations at LGA with a perimeter rule since it can provide comparable access for beyond-perimeter service at other airports (e.g. JFK & EWR).
For what it's worth, a perimeter could have been imposed at DAL without Congressional intervention had the City of Dallas conveyed the airport to the DFW Airport Board.
Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 10): With slot limits IAD will remain protected domestically (whether it needs to be is another question)
I'm not certain the domestic hub at IAD is robust enough to survive unfettered competition on beyond-perimeter flights.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10561 posts, RR: 53 Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4936 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 15): Simply untrue. The market for within-perimeter non-stop service shows that seats and flights broadly favor DCA over IAD. We'd likely see roughly two-thirds of the seats in beyond-perimeter markets shift to DCA vs. IAD. In a medium-haul market like DFW-WAS, AA offers twice as many flights to DCA as they do to IAD.
Completely get what you're saying, but not sure it's totally correct.
If there were no perimeter rule, there would still be a slots rule. You'd probably see more flights to the west coast for sure, and probably on multiple airlines. (No more monopoly for AS on DCA-LAX or UA on DCA-DEN, for example.) That would certainly be a good thing. But I don't think you would see a full shift to banks of transcons out of DCA. For one, there aren't a whole lot of big cities outside the perimeter.
The other reason why AA has twice as many seats DFW-DCA as it does DFW-IAD is because IAD is a large Star Alliance hub. (With the obvious counterexample that UA has way more seats IAD-ORD than DCA-ORD, and zero seats DCA-DFW so AA has ample opportunity to fill in that void.)
But again, ending the perimeter rule would not open DCA up to all flying beyond perimeter because airlines would still need the slots to fly. In fact, you might even see some cannibalization -- if US could move its beyond perimeter slots to wherever it chose, bye bye DCA-LAS, and hello DCA-SFO.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19722 posts, RR: 56 Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4771 times:
Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 10): Somehow the mad dogs make it within noise limits (no doubt just barely, and as a result of heavy lobbying by MD back in the day).
I believe there are restrictions on them during morning and night hours. Back when DL was using MD88s on its shuttle routes, the first flight of the day out of DCA was on an E170, I believe for that very reason.
-Mir
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capitalflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 257 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4507 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 16): way more seats IAD-ORD than DCA-ORD
I am not so sure about that. Some days there may be more seats IAD-ORD. There is however more frequency DCA-ORD (15x during week) on UA than IAD-ORD (7x). Even with a 777 and a 767 on IAD-ORD daily, DCA might have it beat.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6365 posts, RR: 34 Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4267 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 16): The other reason why AA has twice as many seats DFW-DCA as it does DFW-IAD is because IAD is a large Star Alliance hub.
Except that UA doesn't even offer all that many IAD-DFW seats either -- maybe 400 daily in each direction. IAH-IAD is hub-to-hub and it's mostly RJ's still. No RJ's between DCA & IAH, though. DEN-WAS is hub-to-hub for United but they only manage to take a bit over one-third of the market (granted, part of that is due to very high fares).
Quoting D L X (Reply 16): But again, ending the perimeter rule would not open DCA up to all flying beyond perimeter because airlines would still need the slots to fly. In fact, you might even see some cannibalization -- if US could move its beyond perimeter slots to wherever it chose, bye bye DCA-LAS, and hello DCA-SFO.
With the just-concluded slot transaction, US does have the portfolio of slots needed to threaten UA's transcon presence at IAD -- if the DCA perimeter rule were to be relaxed. They'd really only need to re-purpose about 15-20 slots in order to take a meaningful share of the O&D between the West Coast and WAS (assuming the passengers cared less about the product than the convenience).
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3804 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 15): I'm not certain the domestic hub at IAD is robust enough to survive unfettered competition on beyond-perimeter flights.
UA barely cares about the intra-domestic portion of IAD. It's all about feeding its International network. Since DCA is not allowed and BWI is not up to task, UA has a virtual monopoly on anyone who requires any sort of international flying.
Since they're both in StarAlliance, UA can simply let US fill the domestic O&D out of DCA while keeping their loyalty (now with the slot-swap, USAir is a virtual monopoly there)
Everyone in this forum also thought LGA is the bread-and-butter of NYC, and only the nutcases would go out to EWR. (Except that 1. EWR has more pax than LGA, 2. PMCO carries more than either DL or AA in NYC, 3. A study a year or two back shows EWR managing to command higher domestic fares than JFK, but possibly a function of B6.)
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6365 posts, RR: 34 Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3653 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 21): Everyone in this forum also thought LGA is the bread-and-butter of NYC, and only the nutcases would go out to EWR. (Except that 1. EWR has more pax than LGA, 2. PMCO carries more than either DL or AA in NYC, 3. A study a year or two back shows EWR managing to command higher domestic fares than JFK, but possibly a function of B6.)
Sure, but they ignore that EWR is the primary airport for close to 6 or 7 million people in northern New Jersey -- for whom both LGA and JFK are inconvenient treks. The Washington DC MSA (excluding Baltimore) has fewer inhabitants than northern NJ. It also helped that many businesses have relocated operations from Manhattan to New Jersey over the past twenty years.
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 21): Since they're both in StarAlliance, UA can simply let US fill the domestic O&D out of DCA while keeping their loyalty (now with the slot-swap, USAir is a virtual monopoly there)
This assumes US will stay in Star, which is not necessarily a good assumption.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3613 times:
"Everyone in this forum also thought LGA is the bread-and-butter of NYC, and only the nutcases would go out to EWR. (Except that 1. EWR has more pax than LGA, 2. PMCO carries more than either DL or AA in NYC, 3. A study a year or two back shows EWR managing to command higher domestic fares than JFK, but possibly a function of B6.)"
No offense, but you sound like a politician skewing facts to come to a biased conclusion.
EWR handles more pax than LGA because it is bigger and has more slots available for more flights. (A lot bigger btw)
As you can see, airlines just shelled $30-40 million dollars for LGA slots. If LGA had a parallel runway, imagine how much those extra slots would be worth. A heck of a lot more than EWR slots which were given to WN when UA and CO merged.
EWR commands higher fares because it is dominated by 1 airline with 60% market share. Like any fortress hub, the dominant airline surpresses demand by using pricing power and aircraft size (And in the case of EWR, slot restrictions) to get the yields they want. Profitable for the airline . . . bad for the consumer AND the economy in and around the airport which could use more passengers.
Remember, both JFK and EWR can handle 82 operations per hour with the slot restrictions in place. JFK handles 45 million passengers a year and EWR handles 33 million passengers a year.
There are a lot more slots at EWR being filled with RJs and turboprops vs 320s and 190s at JFK.
So yes, fares are higher . . . and demand is surpressed
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2167 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
EWR is not that much further from Manhatten than LGA, it's just taking the tunnel at times during the day can be a pain.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SEA-KOA on DH4/738 in F, HA KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
25 RDH3E: Way more may be a bit of an exaggeration. Take tomorrow for example; ORD-DCA-ORD has 2184 seats in the market, ORD-IAD-ORD has 2426. There are more f
26 mogandoCI: Not really. The airports are close enough that for many passengers, they are essentially choosing between 4 hubbed carriers. This is not DL gouging a
27 ScottB: Artificial scarcity of supply allowed them to apply cartel/monopoly pricing.
28 Flighty: Yes, and just imagine what Delta could do at LGA now. A lot of West Coast flights would move to DCA/LGA saving... ahem ... Americans a lot of time an
29 Mir: Much easier to access by public transport, though (as is JFK). -Mir
30 HPRamper: What would be the drawback of discarding the perimeter rule and keeping a slot restriction? Seems to me that flights would end up more evenly distrib
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