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787 Production Thread Part 2  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 63745 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Hello ladies and gents,

This is a continuation thread of part 1 which can be found here: 787 Production Thread Part 1. Please feel free to continue your discussion on this topic in this thread.

Enjoy the forums!

Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
277 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31101 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 63610 times:
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So we have three delivered in 2011, with two more expected to be delivered this week, all of which are for NH. The mix, I believe, is three domestic and two international birds.

Boeing has yet to give guidance on any additional 787 deliveries for January, but more are expected. The final certification of the GEnx propulsion system (plane + engine) is expected in January and this could see at least one each delivery to JA and AI.

The CHS FAL is online and assembling aircraft, with first deliveries scheduled towards the middle of the year. PAE is moving from 2.5 per month to 3.5 per month.

Boeing has a few dozen 787s at PAE that are undergoing re-work. In the case of the earliest builds, this rework is extensive and they may be pushed back in favor of completing later builds that require less work. So some of these early builds might not be delivered until the later part of 2012, even though they were first assembled years prior.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 63515 times:

It's looking like Boeing will be able to deliver JA806A (L/N40, ZA117) this month but not definitive yet. I personally don't think they'll be able to delvier any GEnx machines until next month. It depends on when they can finish off certification testing using ZA236.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinejet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 62880 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
So we have three delivered in 2011,

Well, glad that they got 3 out the door last year.


I happened to look at the beginning of the thread "787 Production Thread Part 1" where OP United787 as OP started it off on October 18th with the following:

" Now that 2 787s have been delivered, I would love to see a 787 thread similar to the A380 production thread:"
etc. etc.

3 - 2 = 1. At this rate, we'll have an additional Part for this thread with every bird!!  


User currently offlineual747-600 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 62722 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
It's looking like Boeing will be able to deliver JA806A (L/N40, ZA117) this month


Are you talking about December 2011 or January 2012?

UAL747-600


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2729 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 62690 times:

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 3):
" Now that 2 787s have been delivered, I would love to see a 787 thread similar to the A380 production thread:"
etc. etc.

3 - 2 = 1. At this rate, we'll have an additional Part for this thread with every bird!!

I hope not but I never I figured that the last thread would only last as long as 1 delivery  


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 62565 times:

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 4):
Are you talking about December 2011 or January 2012?

Jan 2012.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently online747ata32 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 45 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 61782 times:

How much 787's has Boeing build until today? Are they all stored at PAE or are some ferried to other places like MWH and MHV?
Are there recent photo's available from PAE showing the stored 787's?



Flown: 733, 734, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 743, 744, M11, 752, 763, F100, F70, SF340, A319, A320, A321, A332, 772, 77W, D10, D
User currently offlineTradewinds From Japan, joined Jun 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 60943 times:

I'm a bit confused about all of this, so apologies if I'm asking something obvious, but what's the status on the JL birds? I know BOS-NRT is supposed to start in April (aren't JL already selling seats for that route?) -- what will they do if the aircraft for which they've sold seats is delayed beyond the start of that service?


Tradewinds
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 60621 times:

Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 7):
How much 787's has Boeing build until today? Are they all stored at PAE or are some ferried to other places like MWH and MHV?
Are there recent photo's available from PAE showing the stored 787's?

All but one are in Everett. One in San antonio for re-work and change incorporation. See Matt Cawby's site for pics at Everett:

http://kpae.blogspot.com/



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 60614 times:

Quoting Tradewinds (Reply 8):
what will they do if the aircraft for which they've sold seats is delayed beyond the start of that service?

They'll substitute other equipement, perhaps a 777-200.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 59558 times:

Today is the big day right? The three ANA birds should be heading home to Japan?

Is there any timeframe for that?



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 59402 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 11):
Today is the big day right? The three ANA birds should be heading home to Japan?

Is there any timeframe for that?

Only two. They are expected to leave around 6pm and 7:15pm (Seattle time) but that was as of last Sunday so I don't know if the times have changed since then.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 59091 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
Only two. They are expected to leave around 6pm and 7:15pm (Seattle time) but that was as of last Sunday so I don't know if the times have changed since then.

Understood. God forbid they abide by a schedule they set three whole days ago. Forecasting has not been their strong suit.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineTradewinds From Japan, joined Jun 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 58807 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
They'll substitute other equipement, perhaps a 777-200.

Cheers, that makes sense. It would kind of put a damper on the fanfare of the new route opening, though...



Tradewinds
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31101 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 58790 times:
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Quoting starrion (Reply 13):
Understood. God forbid they abide by a schedule they set three whole days ago. Forecasting has not been their strong suit.

To be fair, once Boeing hands over the plane, it's up to the customer to get the pilots over and the flight-plan filed. So any delay/miss would be due to NH, not Boeing.


User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 58546 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
To be fair, once Boeing hands over the plane, it's up to the customer to get the pilots over and the flight-plan filed. So any delay/miss would be due to NH, not Boeing.

If it did indeed hand over like other sources have stated........   


User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 58463 times:

Just checked with my source and both aircraft are still planned to leave as I reported some days ago. Arrival gates have even been assigned for them at HND so they are definitely expecting them!   

User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12627 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 58434 times:
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Quoting RobK (Reply 16):
If it did indeed hand over like other sources have stated........

Not that it makes a huge difference, but analysts today reporting that Boeing only delivered 2 787s in 2011.   
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...11%20Aircraft%20Delivery%20Targets

Quote:
Boeing planned to deliver about 15-20 787 and 747-8s by year-end as part of an overall 2011 target of about 480 deliveries, with the bulk of the newer model deliveries made up of 747-8Fs. However, investment banking firm Sterne Agee says, “Based on our checks, we expect Boeing to report only 11 deliveries in total for these two programs for 2011, with only two 787 deliveries versus expectations of at least five.”

I guess we'll know for sure after Boeing's dog and pony show tomorrow.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31101 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 58354 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 18):
Not that it makes a huge difference, but analysts today reporting that Boeing only delivered 2 787s in 2011.     

I expect they're counting departures from PAE.


User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 58298 times:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ANA9397   

Should be JA805A.

807 will be ANA9399 if/when it files.

[Edited 2012-01-04 16:33:47]

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 58255 times:

JA805A is flying out at 6 pm as ANA 9397 and will be at HAneda's gate 206 tomorrow morning.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ANA9397

JA807A may follow at 7:15pm and if it does it will be parked next ot 805A at gate 205 at Haneda



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 58109 times:

JA807A now CANCELLED due to further tech issues..............

Is due to fly yet another acceptance flight tomorrow.

ETA: and JA805A did indeed officially deliver to ANA on Dec 30 as per airlinereporter. Source : Boeing. So total 787 delivery count for 2011 = 3.  sarcastic 

[Edited 2012-01-04 18:06:35]

User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 57747 times:

wow. these repeated tech issues must be inspiring huge confidence in ANA


Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31101 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 57320 times:
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Quoting starrion (Reply 23):
wow. these repeated tech issues must be inspiring huge confidence in ANA

They keep taking delivery of them... *shrug*

I'm sure they find it annoying, but planes go tech every day and these birds have been stationary for a very extended period of time.

[Edited 2012-01-05 05:22:48]

25 United787 : So...we were looking at possibly 4 deliveries in December and now we only have one delivered and flown out: L/N 31 - JA805A - 12/30/2011 ...in additio
26 NYC777 : The ZA number is always changing so that's not a reliable way of tracking the aircradft. Line number is more reliable. Also L/N 40 is close to being
27 cmf : It all depends on what the issues are. Since we don't know... Hopefully something will leak out soon.
28 NYC777 : Boeing received an order on dec. 27 for 25 787-9. I wonder who could it be?
29 wolbo : Could it be the booking of the AF/KLM order? That order was for 25 787s and so far it hasn't been booked by Boeing (nor has the AF/KLM order for 25 A
30 United787 : AA finally confirming their order?
31 scbriml : Given their current status in Chapter 11, would they be able to do that without a judge's permission? That would make it somewhat public knowledge, n
32 Stitch : They would have to receive permission from the Bankruptcy Judge. That could have happened and it's being kept as a UFO until a formal announcement is
33 NYC777 : I think this is more than likely. Don't think this is likely.
34 Robt760 : What's the status of LAN's 2 aircraft that are due for delivery 2Q 2012? Very little discussion about them. I don't even recall seeing any photos of t
35 NYC777 : Getting word that JA807A, fourth 787 for ANA should deliver around the 8th and flyaway around the 10th. No word on JA804A as of yet.
36 ual747-600 : On October 28 you posted a 787 projected delivery spreadsheet on your site. How realistic do you think that schedule is based on what you know now? B
37 PM : They haven't, have they? I thought it was 45.
38 Stitch : Boeing's 2009 guidance was 80-90 for 2012. Bernstein Research late last year projected 61 for 2012. There is still travel work on assemblies arriving
39 PM : I was going by this. "According to its Z24 schedule, formalized in November, Boeing plans to deliver 45 787s to customers in 2012, or approximately th
40 Post contains links scbriml : Does anyone know the time elapsed between Z23 & Z24 schedules? Another estimate of 2012 deliveries: http://www.seattlepi.com/business/bo...ery-ta
41 par13del : I thought the two a/c presently in pax service were performing as expected, those are the birds that you are discussing with the confidence issue rig
42 Stitch : It's all down to the subs, frankly. They need to be able to provide 10 fully completed (as in no travel work) shipsets per month. If they can, then i
43 Rheinbote : I do not believe this. The bottleneck is pre-assembly and systems integration in Charleston, ex-Vought, ex-GlobalAeronautica, but these are no subs a
44 Stitch : Well I consider them "subs" in that they produce the shipsets that are moved to the FAL, but yes, they're Boeing now. However, the Heavies are having
45 Rheinbote : How do you know? Or better, how would you know, because your statement is not fully accurate. Exactly. Add band-aid to the side-of-body join (how muc
46 par13del : Ahh, should provide evidence that non-metal fuselage could stand up to the elements, after all, Washington state is not open desert with no rain and
47 Stitch : Boeing's spending a heck of a lot of time, money and effort to get them ready for delivery. Seems a lot of waste if nobody wants them. *shrug*
48 SSTeve : Once the outsourcing innovations work as long promised, the outsourcing innovations will work as long promised, eh?
49 Rheinbote : So you only infer that "NH is taking theirs. So are JL, AI, LA and AT. And VIPs are taking LN4, LN5 and LN6." Obviously some airframes are more or le
50 Stitch : Yes, I infer it based on what Boeing has said, what NH and JL have said, what various aerospace publications have said, what NYC777 has been posting
51 Post contains images PM : I've seen nothing to suggest that these planes will be rejected. LAN even jumped the queue to get a couple of these early builds. I've flown on one o
52 art : Or range reduced by 13,500lbs of fuel? If so, they are not unuseable, surely. How much would range be curtailed by reducing the fuel load by 13,500lb
53 BoeingVista : Boeing needs to incorporate changes into production assemblies, its not really travelled work if the subbies are producing parts according to the pla
54 StressedOut : I simply do not believe that number. When I was still working at Boeing (late 2006) I remember a bulletin board over in the 40-88 or 40-87 building t
55 tdscanuck : Certainly less than 1,000 nm, probably more like 600 nm. In other words, unless you're operating your 787 near the extreme end of its range (and nobo
56 NYC777 : Got further word on delivery and first flight dates: ZA102 - delivers on 1/9/12 ZA104 - delivers on 1/11/12 ZA117 (JA806A, L/N 40) first flight on 1/2
57 PM : Thanks. Since I understand they've changed a few times, can you confirm the line numbers of ZA102 and 104? Might you also know which configuration ea
58 BoeingVista : Now that would be impressive, another PR paperwork delivery? But serously if they can deliver 10 days after first flight that might show progress.
59 ba319-131 : - Good question, we need a few intl config birds on the property.
60 Post contains images Rheinbote : The number for LN7 is quite well established, like the 21,500 lb that LN1 was over 'empty weight target'. Towards that background, 13,500 lb for LN7
61 PM : And, if I need to make the point, it was an opportunity they took.
62 par13del : If 3 a/c are already in pax service I would assume that the airline is actually gathering figures, how closely guarded is another story as they may s
63 Post contains images SCL767 : During Q1 of 2010, LAN entered into an agreement to accelerate the delivery of ten B-787-8s and plans on being the first carrier in the Western Hemis
64 tdscanuck : The key is what you're using as the baseline target...there is widespread speculation that the 21,500 figure is against a very old (2006) OEW...the d
65 Rheinbote : It is clear to me that spec revisions are tracking to weight growth. Usually no problem with airline customers as long as the weight growth goes alon
66 Robt760 : Yet we still have no anticipated delivery dates or photos of the 787's destined for LAN, other than printed data of the line number. It would be nice
67 tdscanuck : Other than the bump down from 8,500 nm to 8,000 nm several years ago, each MEW bump has come with an MTOW bump, holding payload/range constant (but m
68 Post contains links SCL767 : The company's COO recently stated that LAN plans on receiving five B-787-8s this year alone. Also, unlike JL and AI, LAN is a RR Trent 1000 customer.
69 lightsaber : From people who *should* know, I've heard 1.5% to 2.0% better than promise. Now much of this was due to improvements made post start of flight testin
70 Post contains images ferpe : How strange that one can see the stringers and frames like that, thought CFRP frames should have a smooth surface . (Just joking but the effect is re
71 airnorth : I was wondering about the framework underneath the skin too. Just speculating here , but could that be frost on the skin? I realize frost is probably
72 flyglobal : Yea it looks like you sometimes can see at your cars hood or roof the frame below due to different condensation in cold weather. Same affect? regards
73 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Ah, so you only infer that "It will be hard for Boeing to find takers for pre-LN20 airplanes." Neither have I. Haha! Not at all! Although this has be
74 tdscanuck : That, or condensation...totally normal. Frost is much more common in Seattle than snow but, even then, the relative humidity in the winter here is re
75 BoeingVista : Are you able to provide more detail about whats going on with the GENx or point to a source with more information?
76 NYC777 : ZA 102 is L/N 9 (JA804A) ZA 104 is L/N 41 (JA807A) I think but don't quote me, that 102 is configured for domestic service and 104 is for internation
77 Post contains images PM : Very many thanks for this. I have two more 787 flights coming up this week (Thursday and Friday). But it seems highly unlikely that they'll be anythi
78 Post contains images NYC777 : Some people don't realize how lucky they are!!!
79 Post contains links Aircellist : Is this worthy of starting its own thread? The price of an early 787 has been somehow disclosed: around 110 million $, as per Air India's RFP for a le
80 SEPilot : In regards to earlier questions regarding the ability of Boeing to sell early frames (other than the first 6), I suspect that this price is better th
81 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : We had some pretty cold days in Seattle in December. Nothing earth shattering, but definitely at or below freezing a number of times. The flip side?
82 Post contains links Rheinbote : You just have to google "air india 787 filetype:pdf" to get http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RFP%20-%20787.pdf
83 Hamlet69 : Gotta admit, I'm rather surprised. I knew Boeing was not discounting the 787 much in the 2005-2006 timeframe, but $110m represents only a 15% discoun
84 Post contains links Rheinbote : Some others ain't... www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/ge...ral_aviation/read.main/4349780/#66[Edited 2012-01-09 14:31:04]
85 Post contains images Aircellist : I see...
86 Post contains links Spacepope : Looks like ZA102 is up for another grand tour of Washington today. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...2/history/20120109/2015Z/KPAE/KPAE
87 starrion : Does that mean the delivery did not happen?
88 Stitch : Well it appears not to have departed PAE for HND, but it might still have been delivered via paperwork once the flight was completed (perhaps it was
89 Post contains links RobK : http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2012/01/a...ditional-january-787-delivery.html
90 United787 : I assume no news is not good news...it is now the 12th, has anything more been delivered?
91 NYC777 : Getting word from sources that ZA104 may have been delivered on the 10th and may fly out today. ZA102 might be delivering today and may fly out on th
92 NYC777 : Latest tentative plans are now for ZA104 to leave tonight (Jan. 13th) at 6pm and ZA102 to leave on Jan.16 at 7:15pm. Looking for the Flightaware alert
93 Post contains images Stitch : Snow's coming to PAE tomorrow, so that is an incentive for NH to get ZA104 out of town.
94 juanchito : She is flyin to Haneda about 5 hours left of flying. Juanchito
95 nasco2 : Anyone knows if it is realistic that ILFC get any 787´s this year ? As I know DY ( Norwegian air shuttle), have leased 2 units that they have announc
96 Post contains links United787 : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...7/history/20120117/0315Z/KPAE/RJTT Looks like one is still scheduled to leave in less than an hour! That would
97 NYC777 : This one should be delivered next month though there is no date yet for the planned delivery.
98 NYC777 : ZA236 was scheduled to make its first flight today but was cancelled due to the winter storm over Washington State. This plane is to finish the F&
99 PM : What's that in real money?! (i.e. line number?)
100 BoeingVista : L/N 35
101 PM : Thanks!
102 United787 : Getting those last two out the door seemed so painful (at least to me from the outside). I hope they learned a lot during that process that will enabl
103 Ruscoe : It would be very interesting to know how Boeing choose one line number over another to re-work and deliver. Ruscoe
104 JAAlbert : So when are the next deliveries scheduled? Who gets them?
105 NYC777 : I have frequent updates about this on my blog. Next to be delivered (RR only) are L/N 40 (already out on the flightline) sometime around the end of t
106 rotating14 : Hey, any news on the tooling of any new 787-9 parts or a tentative date of the first frame??
107 Post contains links ual747-600 : ZA236 is on flightaware for it's first flight today. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE236 UAL747-600
108 united787 : Just noticed that ZA236 did a second flight yesterday. Do we know of any more upcoming first flights and/or deliveries?
109 NYC777 : Delivereies are done for January. JA806A (LN 40) is being readied for delivery. It should have its first flight sometime early next week and delivere
110 PM : Am I correct in believing that to date only one plane has had its first flight in 2012? (Line number 35 a little over a week ago.) What is the reason
111 AngMoh : No way that is going to happen. Certification will probably not been done yet by then. And it is probably going to take more than a month between cer
112 scbriml : So, have I got this right? Boeing delivered just two 787s in January. But, as far as I can see, both of those were originally scheduled for December s
113 tdscanuck : They tend to kind of "surge" deliveries at the end of the year but the production rate doesn't change. As a result, there's a lull in January while t
114 Stitch : Boeing also spent time and effort to get the first few GEnx-powered planes ready and they're now just sitting around waiting for the certification pap
115 Daysleeper : Cost. Some frames will require more work than others hence will have a higher total cost of production. Boeing are going to space out these high cost
116 Rheinbote : Before the announcement of a delay in EIS from end of 2012 to first half of 2014 it was - Start of fuselage assembly around September 2012 - Wing maj
117 Rheinbote : Delay of EIS from end of 2013 to first half of 2014, that is
118 Post contains images rotating14 : Considering this data along with the fact that after 788 frame # 65 will not need any wiring re-work, does the EIS of the first half still of 2014 st
119 NYC777 : Yes so far.
120 cmf : Thanks to program accounting that's not an issue. Costs are averaged over the program quantity, believe it is currently 1,100, and an equal amount is
121 flood : Do you know if this frame is in international configuration? I believe ANA was still planning on operating 787s daily to FRA beginning March.
122 Post contains links and images rotating14 : Granted this news of Air India getting their frames this year is old but this article says that they will get one later this month!?!? How so!?! http:
123 Post contains links Daysleeper : That does makes sense; it was the quote below from a flight global article that lead me to believe cost was the reason.
124 Stitch : ZA236 | LN35 | VT-ANH is currently being used for F&R/ETOPS Flight Testing with the GEnx. The FAA requires this plane to be fully representative
125 cmf : They are talking about profit. With cost fixed we need to look at the other side of profit, revenue. We know that even identical planes because of fa
126 Post contains images Daysleeper : So essentially I was correct in stating that its cost which dictates which frame is delivered and which is left for later. Well cost and sales price,
127 cmf : It is sales price that is the important factor. The higher completion rate is a secondary factor. If the customers have no issue then why should anyo
128 Rheinbote : Deferred production cost is accounted for as inventory which in turn is accounted for as an asset. From a balance sheet viewpoint it is not a good id
129 Stitch : Better to lose $150 million a frame than $250 million a frame. Yes, Boeing probably will never make a dime on the first 100 or so 787s, even with all
130 cmf : Somehow I missed that line of his post. Thanks for picking it up. They do. This may come as a surprise to many but in program accounting you show pro
131 Rheinbote : Lots of 'break evens' to differentiate between. 'Cash flow break even' is the point were the unit cost of a single airframe has come down on the lear
132 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing does not appear to publish financial figures for individual programs, so whether an analyst says Boeing needs 100 sales or 1000 sales to reach
133 Post contains links Rheinbote : Sure they do http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/financial/balsheet.html Also have a look at the Q3 & Q4 2011 Results call transcripts http://se
134 Post contains images Stitch : Point taken, but that was not the "Financial Information" I meant. I meant things like "this is exactly how much we spent to design this family of ai
135 Daysleeper : Thanks - I'm not sure how relevant that will make the following, but it was an interesting exercise anyway. I’ve played around with some figures fro
136 Rheinbote : No, it is based on public interviews given by Phil Condit and Alan Mulally. One said the planned cost was $6bn and the other one said that Boeing end
137 Post contains links redrooster3 : Looks like BOE005 is heading back to KEF. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE5
138 Ruscoe : If these figures were correct it shows just how profoundly profitable Boeing Commercial is. There long and short term debt has not changed much, they
139 PM : Jon Ostrower in FLIGHT in the first week of January. "Boeing is currently forecasting delivering between 35 and 42 787s in 2012." Jon Ostrower in FLI
140 tdscanuck : That's pretty much the meat of it...despite performance on the 787 and 747-8 since inception, Boeing overall has had financially great years. Certain
141 Post contains links petera380 : B787 LN002 retired Feb 7th, 2012 and flown to Palmdale for storage. From Flight Global: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-second-787-test-aircr
142 united787 : I understand why but it just seems so odd that the first three aircraft are being retired after such a short run...you would think that there would b
143 Post contains links united787 : L/N 40 - JA806A for ANA had it's first flight on Tuesday! http://nyc787.blogspot.com/
144 Stitch : Boeing has LN003 to perform tests on. The other two are just superfluous at this point.
145 iceberg210 : I would think you could sell them as VIP's at least, it'd at least get a few more 787's out there, are those ones that went through testing just so f
146 starrion : The cost of making sure they were brought to production standard would probably be more than they could get for overweight birds. You will probably s
147 Stitch : That is what appears to be the plan for LN004, LN005 and LN006.
148 kanban : Maybe one of the two desert birds will be used to prototype a freighter conversion... from a process stand point only.
149 Stitch : I expect LN001 will go to the Museum of Flight and LN002 will go to the Udvar-Hazy annex of the Smithsonian.
150 Post contains images flood : Here she is returning to KPAE: A less fortunate bird, eagerly awaiting to take to the skies:
151 tdscanuck : Not without backing out a big accounting shift a few years ago...Boeing moved LN1-3 from "Inventory" to "R&D". If they then sell them, they'd hav
152 united787 : Awseome photo!
153 Post contains links tdscanuck : ZA236 is airborne and filed for 19 hours...anyone got mapping software to decode this giant flightplan? Flightaware.com doesn't seem to want to map it
154 Humanitarian : A donation request was made to Boeing for one or more of the first three 787's or the prototype 767-200 tanker lease aircraft sitting at Everett to be
155 Spacepope : Let's see if they end up drawing something
156 PM : Agreed. Fantastic sky!
157 Post contains images nra-3b : The first segment of BOE236 flight track looks suspiciously like a 7 What could they possibly be "writing".....?
158 Post contains links tdscanuck : The mystery is revealed: 787 Test Flight In The Air Right Now... (by GoBoeing Feb 9 2012 in Civil Aviation) They're writing "787" followed by the Boei
159 NYC777 : They did something similar for the final F&R/ETOPs flight test for the 747-8F. This lead s me to believe that this is the final F&R/ETOPs fli
160 Post contains links and images flood : Jon tweeted JA806A was brought back into the factory Wednesday to have her aft fuselage repaired. According to his sources, inspections will take an
161 Post contains images nra-3b : All the 787s currently assembled will of course need the inspection. But, will all need repairs??? Only your inspector knows for sure....... Cheers, B
162 kanban : Wrong.. the inspector can only document the non compliant problem, an engineer will make the repair call.
163 Post contains images nra-3b : Kanban, Yeah I guess you are right, I've never met an inspector who actually knew what he was looking at, either. When I had them inspect my installat
164 Post contains images united787 : These are great photos...I love the one with the 6 lined up in a row...these all look abandoned, sad
165 ba319-131 : - I agree, excellent photo's, thanks for sharing.
166 Post contains links and images flood : All things 787 is reporting no deliveries for February, citing the need to inspect/repair the delamination issue New projected delivery dates include:
167 Stitch : That likely explains the recent downgrade in forecast deliveries for 2012. They're effectively losing at least two NH and likely one JL and one AI de
168 Post contains images PM : So, five deliveries in six months. Did anyone think it was going to be that bad?
169 col : Or, did anyone think it was going to be so many!! This is the 787 after all.
170 Post contains images Stitch : Anything that can go wrong does go wrong with the 787, so honestly, can't say I am surprised. Boeing will eventually get it right (if nothing else, r
171 Rheinbote : Mike Jenks just said in Singapore that the 787-9 will fly mid 2013 and is going to enter into service with ANZ in early 2014. Someone on twitter raise
172 BoeingVista : I thought for a little while in January that Boeing might deliver a GE bird this quarter and I'd have to eat my hat, but it looks like I will avoid a
173 United787 : According to All Things 787, the will be delivering to 2 JAL 787s with GE engines on March 24, 2012, still this quarter!
174 sunrisevalley : Good question. If the parts redesign is completed ahead of schedule is there any reason why it should not be built out of sequence. Is there anything
175 ZKCIF : Sincerely, I do not think they care a little bit about the sequence. if they have all the parts and preparations they do it. if they don't they don't.
176 Post contains images Rheinbote : Well, Air New Zealand might care. In case it's LN391 we'd be talking about delivery in 2016. [Edited 2012-02-12 10:59:36]
177 SSTeve : nyc787's blog estimates that there will still be ~8 planes in rework in Jan 2013. But yes, the production rate is also figured lower, so it doesn't ne
178 ZKCIF : My friend, I meant that Boeing would see no issue building frames out of order. Airbus are building A380 MSN 105 to 110 (for Emirates) but MSN 91 and
179 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: CNBC Boeing 787 Manufacturing Problem - Video http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video..._source=otbrn%7Cvideo%7C&par=otbrn
180 Rheinbote : Okay, I see. So far Boeing maintained sequence, with the exemption of LNs 46 and 54 under assembly in Charleston.
181 tdscanuck : When you're talking about line numbers you basically can't build frames out of order...by definition, the line number is the order they come down the
182 Post contains links ferpe : There is quite some information on the 787-9 subject in todays Flightglobal: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...p-787-9-development-effort-368109/
183 MEA-707 : My money will be on the low 100s. Not necessairily #100 although they might try to, but maybe #109 or #113.
184 Post contains links ual747-600 : Seems like the Chubu flights to pick up parts are increasing in frequency. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI4512 Has Boeing announced any product
185 starrion : That question sums up the 787 project so well. Any other aviation project would be "Hey! Production rate increase. What will that do to the backlog?"
186 NYC777 : There's still room at Everett and hopefully they can start getting 3 or more 787s out starting next month so they can draw down on the inventory that'
187 sweair : The last issue with delamination must have been like a fist in the face for Boeing, they were so close to having no rework needed on the coming aircra
188 dynamicsguy : That was the line number for the Z23 schedule. It has changed line number with every revision of the schedule (and we're now at Z24) since it is base
189 NYC777 : The answer is no. The planes on the FAL can be inspected probably more easily than the one on the flightline. Even if they need to be fixed, Boeing c
190 United787 : Looks like another one took to the skies on 2/14/2012. LN33 - JA825J - JL All 3 of the planes above have flown! Also, ZA236, the GEnx F&R/ETOPS t
191 PEET7G : Sorry if this has been covered, but I just made bookings for a business trip to ADD with ET, and on the DXB-ADD-DXB sector it shows 787 for both inbou
192 sweair : ZA806 and ZA808 show up as final preps for delivery and pre delivery test-flights, the two JAL birds show up as final preps for delivery. All of these
193 dynamicsguy : You're confusing registrations with effectivity. For ANA: LN 40 = ZA117. According to All Things 787 this is JA806A LN 42 = ZA105. Apparently this is
194 NYC777 : ZA236 is scheduled to fly back to Everett today which is an indication that F&R/ETOPs testing is completed for the GEnx-1B powered version of the
195 mattcawby : Let us know when it lands at Everett.
196 Post contains links Stitch : Pat Shanahan spoke yesterday at a Barclays Capital Industrial Select Conference in Miami and he noted that the 787 supply chain is currently deliverin
197 Post contains images sweair : A good informative read and very honest, "time we don't have".. I am sure they will get through this too and eventually this will become a successful
198 Post contains images rotating14 : Boeing has learned so much from this experience, so much so that the only way from here is up. With the new shimming delays coupled with past wiring
199 tdscanuck : It's important to note that the 787-8 is already a *very* good aircraft. It just looks "bad" relative to its original specifications, which went way
200 Rheinbote : Rumor has it that first delivery to JAL planned for the 24th of March has been postponed.
201 Stitch : JL's first two birds should be ready for delivery by now so perhaps Customer Supplied Equipment is running late?
202 scbriml : Given JL's 787s are nearly 4 years late, that would be surprising and frankly unforgivable.
203 Post contains images Stitch : I am operating under the assumption that some of what JL planned to put into their 787s back in 2004 has changed over the intervening years. As such,
204 Rheinbote : I think you are barking up the wrong tree. There's next to no Buyer Furnished Equipment aboard 787s except premium class seats.
205 NYC777 : Delivery date has been pushed back by one week now. I think this is all attributable to the shim issue. both the planes (JA822J and JA825J) are both
206 Stitch : If it only takes 10-14 days to replace the shims, Boeing should have been able to perform the work by the 24th.
207 rotating14 : I've heard of JL and AI getting their 787's soon but who's next after that??
208 ebj1248650 : How many 787s are in San Antonio and when are more supposed to arrive there?
209 Post contains links United787 : 2 are there currently: LN 6 LN 29 a GE bird for Air India http://nyc787.blogspot.com/
210 ADent : So it is official - no deliveries for Feb 2012. Of course we have known this was the plan for a couple of weeks. So it looks like the following is sti
211 RickNRoll : You could be on to something there. Maybe it takes more than 10-14 days to replace the shims.
212 AngMoh : More likely that the GEnx power planes are not yet certified and even for the RR powered 787 there was a full month between certification and 1st del
213 sweair : Any word on AI wanting to sell its 787s? Even if these birds are not LN90s someone would get a really good deal on price for these frames. Hoping for
214 Rheinbote : AI cannot sell aircraft they do not own. I would assume that all AI 787 remain Boeing property until fully paid. Last time I checked AI was still loo
215 Post contains links sweair : I read this piece and it doesn't sound too far out? Hoping to make money on it. http://zeenews.india.com/business/ne...selling-787-dreamliners_42884.
216 Stitch : The Indian Government have already allocated money to pay for the order, so AI will take delivery. They may then just do what DL did with a number of
217 sweair : It should be a few takers for early frames right? Even if they are not on spec, airlines with Genx on order could get these earlier than planned. Wou
218 Rheinbote : The article is based on several misconceptions. First, AI has not bought the aircraft yet and they have great difficulties to cough up the money. Good
219 sweair : But how does things like this work in aviation? Who would get those frames? Would the list move up for those further down on delivery schedule? Boein
220 Stitch : AI doesn't need to find the money - the Indian Government has already stated they will pay for them, which is why AI did not cancel their order as the
221 Post contains images sweair : Yeah there is no MOL in the WB world just yet
222 ContnlEliteCMH : Or perhaps Boeing is having difficulty finding the resources and time to do the work. From the Aviation Week article: "We carved out a separate produ
223 Stitch : James Albaugh has stated that the shim work was being done in parallel with other work and that they did not expect the shim work to extend the sched
224 dynamicsguy : That may be the case for those airframes which were yet to go through rework and change incorporation, but for the airframes close to delivery there
225 kanban : It can however be done concurrent to the normal work done after roll out both in the pre first flight period and in the pre delivery period...
226 Post contains images flood : With regards to the shim issue, I'm assuming that's what's being worked on here?
227 dynamicsguy : True, but by the looks of it there wasn't 3 weeks' worth of that either. Anyway, it appears that LN23 is back out on the flightline which is an encou
228 ferpe : Do you have access to the tail section via the APU maintenance door? Guess you need to remove some stuff or?
229 United787 : 7 1/2 weeks since the last delivery and nothing new to report? Just when I think Boeing hits a new stride, something else goes wrong...
230 Post contains links Hmelawyer : While nothing new on the next deliveries, there was confirmation that the line has increased rate to 3.5/month, which is a good sign. http://www.bloo
231 sweair : Oh from LN57 onwards the shim issue is fixed, but a rework free plane is from LN70 and onwards. The EMC works on 10 planes at the same time, one frame
232 Post contains links dynamicsguy : Go back to Reply 166 in this thread and you'll see the projected delivery dates as of 3 and a half weeks ago. Those dates are still pretty much corre
233 Post contains images KELPkid : So what happened to JA803A, is NH just skipping that registration?
234 Post contains images teme82 : I think that it would be bad luck
235 tdscanuck : Correct. There aren't supposed to have been any deliveries in this interval. Don't forget that they're building GE powered birds too but they can't d
236 MEA-707 : LN23, to become JA852J for JAL, already flew since 01 MAR 2011, it has been in Lackland TX last year. So it can't be a first flight.
237 dynamicsguy : That is correct, but I never said it was. This was, however, definitely the B1 flight. It seems like Boeing didn't use the ferry flight back in Novem
238 Post contains links Stitch : Latest update from All Things 787 shows two JL and one NH bird scheduled across the last week of this month.
239 sweair : There will come a time when deliveries are flooding out of paine field. From LN70 and on they can go straight from FAL to delivery and have 10-11 rewo
240 Post contains images PPVRA : That's Boeing's problem, it'll be a sweet day for us!
241 Hacku : Maybe JA803A is for an older frame, like LN/7 ?
242 Post contains links redrooster3 : BOE236 which is distend for AI is now flying to India... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE236 Did they deliver to AI?
243 petera380 : No, it's going to an airshow flying under a N reg.
244 starrion : Hopefully that will occur sometime before they become obsolete? Presuming that all of the early frames are delivered by the end of next year, some of
245 Post contains links ghifty : Boeing just released a PR video on their YouTube page, chronicling the Dreamliner's flight test program. Cool vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBmx
246 Post contains links PPVRA : "Between the 787 and the 747, we should deliver between 70 and 85 of those airplanes this year. It's split pretty evenly between the two airplanes," A
247 Stitch : At the JP Morgan Aviation, Transportation and Defense conference , Boeing Commercial Airplanes President & Chief Executive Jim Albaugh reported th
248 sunrisevalley : Assuming they hit these targets without pushing aircraft out the door with carried work; at what points in time should they hit LN90 and alternativel
249 NYC777 : Actually JL is going to be the first GEnx 787 delivery (they'll get two at the end of this month), not AI. Given the public sparring over compensatio
250 Post contains images Rheinbote : That means rate break was initiated at the start of march. That doesn't mean that the whole assembly line is running at 3,5 yet. Spirit said in their
251 PM : It's not much "progress" until they can deliver the damn things.
252 dynamicsguy : It was going to be LN 137 or LN 139 (I have seen both mentioned) under the Z23 schedule. Since they started running first to a revised Z23 and then t
253 sunrisevalley : so it is a matter of when all the engineering is released for production of all parts to start.
254 dynamicsguy : More the other way around, at least for the part of the airplane I work on (the wing moveable trailing edge). I haven't seen any recent information (
255 Post contains links United787 : FAA has certified the GEnx 787! http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ation-for-genx-powered-787-369733/
256 starrion : Speaking of which, we should see one of the ANA frames deliver tomorrow? Or has that "slid to the right" again....
257 Stitch : No notice of a delay on All Things 787. AI has agreed to take their 787s, so they should see their first one in May (though I wonder if they could ta
258 Post contains links tdscanuck : It's a little late for that...it was already there and came back. Flight to India: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...6/history/20120311/1700Z/KB
259 Post contains links flood : WSJ reports JAL will be taking delivery of their first 787 on March 25, with the aircraft flying out to NRT on March 26th. http://tinyurl.com/83vwka2
260 NYC777 : ANA delivery has slid to the right though I'm not sure by how much. It doesn't look to be serious and I do think it'll deliver this month. At least on
261 Post contains links rotating14 : Looks as though 2 787s are headed for JAL on Sunday the 25th http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...boeing-787-dreamliners-on-march-25
262 dynamicsguy : LN 37 and 38, but I don't know which has each registration.
263 klkla : Have there been any pictures release yet of the interior for JAL 787?
264 Post contains links airnorth : Pictures of the new JAL interior are posted at seattle pi...here is a link: http://blog.seattlepi.com/airlinerep...march-25th-photos-of-the-interior/
265 Post contains images klkla : Thanks for the link! From the article: "The business (or executive) class seats are in a 2-2-2 layout and provide about 60″ of seat pitch and a bit
266 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm happy to hear about the line rate increases. Which is why I'm now saying it will be 2014 before enough 788s have been delivered to make older fram
267 Post contains images Stitch : Many of these change requests evidently require folks to squeeze into tight spaces and you can only put so many people into the plane before you run
268 Post contains images PM : I know it's just a mathematical conceit but after six months of deliveries it will take Boeing 80 years at this rate to clear the backlog!
269 SEPilot : If they are hired just to fix the early planes and then laid off it would be a very expensive proposition. First, the cost of training them, and then
270 sunrisevalley : To get the backlog of assembled aircraft ready for delivery ; is the time being expended due to the travelled work that is labor intensive to finish o
271 Stitch : All three scenarios are in play, I expect, but Change Incorporation (modifications necessary after the airframe was assembled) seems to be the main d
272 ADent : You forgot repairs (this shim fix).
273 NYC777 : Boeing is planning to deliver two 787s to JAL on Sunday, March 25th and it looks like they'll be delivering a 6th 787 to ANA on the same day as well.
274 sweair : If rework was the only problem more planes would be done and delivered, I suspect its has more to do with new parts needed to fix the built planes? Th
275 Stitch : A good part of that rework involves taking apart already-completed sections, making the changes, and putting them back together. That is very man-hou
276 sunrisevalley : Do we know if weight reduced parts are being installed as they become available or are they being accumulated for the change to be made at a specific
277 Post contains links SA7700 : Hello ladies and gents, This thread will be locked for further contributions as it has become quite slow to load for some users. Please note that any
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