olddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 336 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3358 times:
How come AS can fly OAK to OGG, HNL, KOA, LIH and HA to OGG & HNL but Western/DL, UA, World Airways, Hawaii Express, Suntrips, TZ couldn't make it work?
jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7336 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3314 times:
Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.
olddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 336 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3232 times:
hmmm, TZ used the 738 from OAK and UA used DC8. You're right, they rest were DC10's except HA's 763, I just find it odd that HA & AS are making OAK & SJC work very well and expanding. A friend who's ground crew in KOA was told to be on the watch for SEA-KOA (daily), OAK-KOA (3x week), SJC-KOA (3 week), PDX-KOA (Seasonal Wed Only) hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for the input.
Tomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 657 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3228 times:
Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2): . A friend who's ground crew in KOA was told to be on the watch for SEA-KOA (daily), OAK-KOA (3x week), SJC-KOA (3 week),
This is the current AS schedule. OAK-KOA and SJC-KOA go daily in March.
Tom SJC
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RDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1059 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3056 times:
Why add frequencies to the same place, from a place only 30 miles from where you currently operate from? I understand it takes those people longer to get to SFO and it's a slightly different catchment, but I don't think that justifies having the extra frequencies.
wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5526 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2987 times:
There are other airline company issues or plans that are completely irrelevant to routes that caused them to be discontinued. WA served OAK-HNL with 707's. The service ended years before the WA/DL merger. WO ended OAK-HNL service when they moved their headquarters out of OAK and ended all scheduled service. ATA just stopped all scheduled service...same with AQ. UA just has bigger fish to fry. UA barely has any service out of OAK nowadays.
AS and HA seized the opportunity left by the void from AQ and ATA, now that both have more-than-capable of aircraft.
It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8771 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2916 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.
Not as much when you consider that a 767-300 couldn't make it to HNL out of SNA (and likely not out of BUR on all days, let alone being able to park that plane at BUR) and LGB is slot restricted and maxed out.
That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now.
The Bay Area airports don't have the runway/space/slot concerns that face 3/5 SoCal airports which makes a huge difference.
us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3745 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2847 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6): That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now
IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?
wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5526 posts, RR: 5 Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2758 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6): That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now.
Good point.
Quoting us330 (Reply 7): IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2307 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2724 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8): Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?
Yes...briefly using DC-10's.
UA tried it very briefly also with DC-8s back when they did SJC and OAK to HNL with DC-8s. Didn't last very long.
as739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5820 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2694 times:
Western, was bought by DL (SLC hub)
World Airways, went out of business
United, Their West Coast hub 11 miles across the bay
Suntrips, Operated for a charter service
ATA, liquidated
I think this hardly mean OAK-Hawaii service wasn't flyable. It's the fact that the airline was not successful.
Alaska has a very strong business model. They have the right a/c for the route. They offer serve from numerous west coast destinations.
Which city exactly does AS not have competition from? Other then ANC, I believe Hawaiian serves every West Coast city AS serves. They have Legacy carriers from all their hubs as well. I think there is plenty of competition from the West side.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9187 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2645 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5): WA served OAK-HNL with 707's. The service ended years before the WA/DL merger.
Exactly. I don't remember DL (as DL) ever having service from OAK to HNL, even after the DL/WA merger.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
malaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2622 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5): It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.
Even serves SMF too up the road from the Bay Area
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14326 posts, RR: 26 Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2591 times:
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1): Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.
That's part of it, and a lot of what Alaska has done isn't really new necessarily, but working to fill in some of the gap left by Aloha and ATA.
How many of AS's Hawaii flights are codeshares? That could give them a lot more potential passengers to help make these routes work when they can tap into other FF bases.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22029 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2582 times:
The whole premise of OP thread question is simply misinformed.
Quoting as739x (Reply 10): I think this hardly mean OAK-Hawaii service wasn't flyable. It's the fact that the airline was not successful.
.
Each of the airlines had a life changing event take place. Either a shutdown like ATA/Aloha, or merger, or shift in network and strategy which drove the changes at Oakland as a by product.
One can hardly link the withdrawal of Oakland-Hawaii flying as being a standalone event on economic performance grounds.
Actualy was on a 763. ONT operated between June 2002 and March 2004.
At the time of the cut, Hawaiian Air spokesmen stated the cut was related to the need of aircraft to operate the then recently announced Sydney services.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 535 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2560 times:
Another thing is that west coast-Hawaii flights are heavily discounted. Since Hawaii is primarily a leisure destination rather than a business market that would attract high value customers, I have heard that no one really makes any money on them but they are stuck flying them for competitive reasons. Florida flights are much the same. DL flies there with the 757-300 (probably the least comfortable aircraft ever built) but the passengers are happy. Who would not be happy going to Hawaii?
AWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1416 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2515 times:
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1): And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.
Whew...good thing HA is limited to the Islands and can't fly to the west coast
RDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1059 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2509 times:
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 15): Another thing is that west coast-Hawaii flights are heavily discounted. Since Hawaii is primarily a leisure destination rather than a business market that would attract high value customers, I have heard that no one really makes any money on them but they are stuck flying them for competitive reasons.
If that were in any way true we wouldn't see nearly as many frequencies to the islands. You think UA flights LAX-HNL 8x daily during summer for "competitive reasons" that aren't MONEY?
ha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3492 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2154 times:
I wouldn't say that ATA couldn't make OAK-Hawaii work. Their Hawaii routes were doing well, just not well enough to overcome the other circumstances that caused it to shut down. The other airlines were trying to fly the route at a time when flying out of secondary airports to Hawaii just did not work.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14): Actualy was on a 763. ONT operated between June 2002 and March 2004.
At the time of the cut, Hawaiian Air spokesmen stated the cut was related to the need of aircraft to operate the then recently announced Sydney services.
The route was also a money loser. HA tried to get more pax to try out ONT by moving the LAX-LAS tag on to ONT-LAS, but it didn't work.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2307 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2114 times:
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 16): Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.
Whew...good thing HA is limited to the Islands and can't fly to the west coast
He's sort of correct. I think he's referring to the point-to-point routes that AS flies. No-one else flies SEA-LIH, BLI-HNL, SJC/OAK-LIH/KOA, SMF-OGG, SAN-OGG, PDX-KOA, etc. In that sense, AS doesn't have competition. Sure you can fly HA on SJC-HNL-LIH or connect BLI-SEA-OGG, but AS doesn't have direct non-stop competition on many of their Hawaii routes.
milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1855 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1791 times:
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1): Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.
After TALOA discontinued their service with B-377's in about 1960, I think Western was the next airline to offer OAK to HNL service. In the early and mid 70's, WA operated a round robin flight, SJC-OAK-HNL-SJC with 720-047B's. Eventually, as I recall, they operated nonstops from both SJC and OAK with the 720B's. The 347C's were used on charters and I flew on them between both SFO and LAX to and from SEA.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2307 posts, RR: 7 Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1742 times:
Quoting milesrich (Reply 20): In the early and mid 70's, WA operated a round robin flight, SJC-OAK-HNL-SJC with 720-047B's. Eventually, as I recall, they operated nonstops from both SJC and OAK with the 720B's.
Yes, WA did eventually break them out to non-stops, occasionally with 707-320Bs too. UA entered the SJC-HNL and OAK-HNL market around 1977 or so with DC-8s, and briefly DC-10s. IIRC, both WA and UA did those flights at the same time for awhile.
olddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 336 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1711 times:
Just learning something new about my home airport of SJC, I never knew they flew to HNL... good to know. I love learning.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6466 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1696 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9): UA tried it [ONT-HNL] very briefly also with DC-8s back when they did SJC and OAK to HNL with DC-8s.
Some OAGs showed a ONT-HNL flight that was to start some months later (June 1979, maybe)-- but I think when that date rolled around the flight had evaporated.
n471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1678 times:
Bottom line is that AS is doing all the right things relative to Hawaii while the carriers who now serve Hawaii only through HNL are just living on borrowed time. Yes there will always be a need for a strong mainland to HNL route but HNL as a needed connection point to the other islands is diminshing every day---Thank you AS!!
25 wedgetail737: I appreciate the fact that AS has been opening up new mainland-Hawaii routes that avoid the need for connections. There's probably room for more like
26 BoeingGuy: Yeah, they can't do much more from SEA, SJC and OAK unless they start MKK or ITO. I don't think the runways at HNM are MUE are long enough for flight
27 timz: I was wrong-- the OAGs show a daily UA DC8 in summer 1977, 1978 and 1979. Probably ran from June to September each year.
28 milesrich: Were those flights operated with DC-8-61's, (D8S), or regular body DC-8's or DC-8-62's.
29 swabrian: I transferred to OAK with DL in May 1977 and left when the station closed in September 1979. WA was flying a 707-300 in all coach configuration. IIRC
30 mayor: I remember that.......I helped Mike Fortier drive out there when he transferred from ORD.
31 timz: 8/77 and 7/78 show DC8, 7/79 shows D8S ("DC-8 all 60 series").
32 BoeingGuy: I never saw a "Stretch-8" at SJC for the Hawaii service. I believe it was all DC-8-50s. (UA did fly a DC-8-61 SJC-DEN though).
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