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UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK  
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 395 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

How come AS can fly OAK to OGG, HNL, KOA, LIH and HA to OGG & HNL but Western/DL, UA, World Airways, Hawaii Express, Suntrips, TZ couldn't make it work?

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5012 times:
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Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.


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User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

hmmm, TZ used the 738 from OAK and UA used DC8. You're right, they rest were DC10's except HA's 763, I just find it odd that HA & AS are making OAK & SJC work very well and expanding. A friend who's ground crew in KOA was told to be on the watch for SEA-KOA (daily), OAK-KOA (3x week), SJC-KOA (3 week), PDX-KOA (Seasonal Wed Only) hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for the input.

User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 910 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4926 times:
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Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2):
. A friend who's ground crew in KOA was told to be on the watch for SEA-KOA (daily), OAK-KOA (3x week), SJC-KOA (3 week),

This is the current AS schedule. OAK-KOA and SJC-KOA go daily in March.  

Tom SJC



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User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4754 times:

This is why: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SJC-SFO-OAK&MS=wls&DU=mi

Why add frequencies to the same place, from a place only 30 miles from where you currently operate from? I understand it takes those people longer to get to SFO and it's a slightly different catchment, but I don't think that justifies having the extra frequencies.

[Edited 2012-01-04 06:25:14]

User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4685 times:
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There are other airline company issues or plans that are completely irrelevant to routes that caused them to be discontinued. WA served OAK-HNL with 707's. The service ended years before the WA/DL merger. WO ended OAK-HNL service when they moved their headquarters out of OAK and ended all scheduled service. ATA just stopped all scheduled service...same with AQ. UA just has bigger fish to fry. UA barely has any service out of OAK nowadays.

AS and HA seized the opportunity left by the void from AQ and ATA, now that both have more-than-capable of aircraft.

It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):

It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.

Not as much when you consider that a 767-300 couldn't make it to HNL out of SNA (and likely not out of BUR on all days, let alone being able to park that plane at BUR) and LGB is slot restricted and maxed out.

That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now.

The Bay Area airports don't have the runway/space/slot concerns that face 3/5 SoCal airports which makes a huge difference.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3877 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now

IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4456 times:
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Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now.

Good point.

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?

Yes...briefly using DC-10's.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4422 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?

Yes...briefly using DC-10's.

UA tried it very briefly also with DC-8s back when they did SJC and OAK to HNL with DC-8s. Didn't last very long.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6200 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):

Western, was bought by DL (SLC hub)
World Airways, went out of business
United, Their West Coast hub 11 miles across the bay
Suntrips, Operated for a charter service
ATA, liquidated

I think this hardly mean OAK-Hawaii service wasn't flyable. It's the fact that the airline was not successful.

Alaska has a very strong business model. They have the right a/c for the route. They offer serve from numerous west coast destinations.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):

Which city exactly does AS not have competition from? Other then ANC, I believe Hawaiian serves every West Coast city AS serves. They have Legacy carriers from all their hubs as well. I think there is plenty of competition from the West side.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10674 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
WA served OAK-HNL with 707's. The service ended years before the WA/DL merger.

Exactly. I don't remember DL (as DL) ever having service from OAK to HNL, even after the DL/WA merger.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.

Even serves SMF too up the road from the Bay Area  



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User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15841 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

That's part of it, and a lot of what Alaska has done isn't really new necessarily, but working to fill in some of the gap left by Aloha and ATA.

How many of AS's Hawaii flights are codeshares? That could give them a lot more potential passengers to help make these routes work when they can tap into other FF bases.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26170 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4280 times:

The whole premise of OP thread question is simply misinformed.

Quoting as739x (Reply 10):
I think this hardly mean OAK-Hawaii service wasn't flyable. It's the fact that the airline was not successful.

  .

Each of the airlines had a life changing event take place. Either a shutdown like ATA/Aloha, or merger, or shift in network and strategy which drove the changes at Oakland as a by product.

One can hardly link the withdrawal of Oakland-Hawaii flying as being a standalone event on economic performance grounds.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
Yes...briefly using DC-10's.

Actualy was on a 763. ONT operated between June 2002 and March 2004.

At the time of the cut, Hawaiian Air spokesmen stated the cut was related to the need of aircraft to operate the then recently announced Sydney services.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Another thing is that west coast-Hawaii flights are heavily discounted. Since Hawaii is primarily a leisure destination rather than a business market that would attract high value customers, I have heard that no one really makes any money on them but they are stuck flying them for competitive reasons. Florida flights are much the same. DL flies there with the 757-300 (probably the least comfortable aircraft ever built) but the passengers are happy. Who would not be happy going to Hawaii?


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User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

Whew...good thing HA is limited to the Islands and can't fly to the west coast  


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 15):
Another thing is that west coast-Hawaii flights are heavily discounted. Since Hawaii is primarily a leisure destination rather than a business market that would attract high value customers, I have heard that no one really makes any money on them but they are stuck flying them for competitive reasons.

If that were in any way true we wouldn't see nearly as many frequencies to the islands. You think UA flights LAX-HNL 8x daily during summer for "competitive reasons" that aren't MONEY?   

[Edited 2012-01-04 09:28:59]

[Edited 2012-01-04 09:29:57]

User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3673 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3852 times:
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I wouldn't say that ATA couldn't make OAK-Hawaii work. Their Hawaii routes were doing well, just not well enough to overcome the other circumstances that caused it to shut down. The other airlines were trying to fly the route at a time when flying out of secondary airports to Hawaii just did not work.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Actualy was on a 763. ONT operated between June 2002 and March 2004.

At the time of the cut, Hawaiian Air spokesmen stated the cut was related to the need of aircraft to operate the then recently announced Sydney services.

The route was also a money loser. HA tried to get more pax to try out ONT by moving the LAX-LAS tag on to ONT-LAS, but it didn't work.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 16):
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

Whew...good thing HA is limited to the Islands and can't fly to the west coast

He's sort of correct. I think he's referring to the point-to-point routes that AS flies. No-one else flies SEA-LIH, BLI-HNL, SJC/OAK-LIH/KOA, SMF-OGG, SAN-OGG, PDX-KOA, etc. In that sense, AS doesn't have competition. Sure you can fly HA on SJC-HNL-LIH or connect BLI-SEA-OGG, but AS doesn't have direct non-stop competition on many of their Hawaii routes.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3489 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

After TALOA discontinued their service with B-377's in about 1960, I think Western was the next airline to offer OAK to HNL service. In the early and mid 70's, WA operated a round robin flight, SJC-OAK-HNL-SJC with 720-047B's. Eventually, as I recall, they operated nonstops from both SJC and OAK with the 720B's. The 347C's were used on charters and I flew on them between both SFO and LAX to and from SEA.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 20):
In the early and mid 70's, WA operated a round robin flight, SJC-OAK-HNL-SJC with 720-047B's. Eventually, as I recall, they operated nonstops from both SJC and OAK with the 720B's.

Yes, WA did eventually break them out to non-stops, occasionally with 707-320Bs too. UA entered the SJC-HNL and OAK-HNL market around 1977 or so with DC-8s, and briefly DC-10s. IIRC, both WA and UA did those flights at the same time for awhile.


User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Just learning something new about my home airport of SJC, I never knew they flew to HNL... good to know. I love learning.

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6903 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
UA tried it [ONT-HNL] very briefly also with DC-8s back when they did SJC and OAK to HNL with DC-8s.

Some OAGs showed a ONT-HNL flight that was to start some months later (June 1979, maybe)-- but I think when that date rolled around the flight had evaporated.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1609 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3376 times:
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Bottom line is that AS is doing all the right things relative to Hawaii while the carriers who now serve Hawaii only through HNL are just living on borrowed time. Yes there will always be a need for a strong mainland to HNL route but HNL as a needed connection point to the other islands is diminshing every day---Thank you AS!!

25 wedgetail737 : I appreciate the fact that AS has been opening up new mainland-Hawaii routes that avoid the need for connections. There's probably room for more like
26 Post contains images BoeingGuy : Yeah, they can't do much more from SEA, SJC and OAK unless they start MKK or ITO. I don't think the runways at HNM are MUE are long enough for flight
27 timz : I was wrong-- the OAGs show a daily UA DC8 in summer 1977, 1978 and 1979. Probably ran from June to September each year.
28 milesrich : Were those flights operated with DC-8-61's, (D8S), or regular body DC-8's or DC-8-62's.
29 swabrian : I transferred to OAK with DL in May 1977 and left when the station closed in September 1979. WA was flying a 707-300 in all coach configuration. IIRC
30 mayor : I remember that.......I helped Mike Fortier drive out there when he transferred from ORD.
31 timz : 8/77 and 7/78 show DC8, 7/79 shows D8S ("DC-8 all 60 series").
32 BoeingGuy : I never saw a "Stretch-8" at SJC for the Hawaii service. I believe it was all DC-8-50s. (UA did fly a DC-8-61 SJC-DEN though).
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