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United Vs DC9's  
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 363 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4266 times:

I know UA has been very happy with Boeing over the years, but they've always been a huge MD operator as well. What where the lagistics of going with the 727's & 737's over DC9-MD80-MD90 family?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 267 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3940 times:
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United from the start favored 6 across seating on their jets.That is why they waited on the DC-8 over the 707 as it was proposed at the time that they ordered jets.Same with the 737 over the DC-9.The DC9-10 was too small and when Boeing decided to build the 737-200 United decided to wait on it over the DC9-30 due to cabin width.The Caravelle was the one exception as it was the only small jet availible for 1961 delivery,three years before the first 727s.They were operated in all first class while with United.

User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5067 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Besides didn't Boeing start United? Even though they opted for the DC8 over the 707.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 1):
United from the start favored 6 across seating on their jets.That is why they waited on the DC-8 over the 707 as it was proposed at the time that they ordered jets

Doesn't the 707 also have a 3-3 across seating? The 707 and the DC-8 both have that config in Y Class.
I believe that United also flew the Boeing 720, although a rather small fleet.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 2):
Besides didn't Boeing start United?

I believe they did. They started United in 1931 and it was at the request of United that Boeing built the 247, the then rival of the Douglas DC-3. But it turned out that only United flew the 247. 60 Boeing 247s were built. Since then, Boeing, United and Pratt & Whitney started working together, from the 247 to the 777 (not sure if their 787s will be PW powered).

United bought the DC-10 in the early 70s when it was all new because they needed a wide body for their major trunk routes in their system. I think that the reason they helped Md Donnell Douglas launch the DC-10, it was co launched by United and American, was Boeing didn't have an airplane available then for hi capacity domestic routes. It was only 10 years after that the 767 came out. Although it was American who was the first airline to commit to the DC-10, United helped a lot because if it wasn't for United, the DC-10 would have never existed. The project would have gone nowhere beyond the drawing board.

If airliners.net existed then, there would have been a lot of B vs D war.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
Doesn't the 707 also have a 3-3 across seating? The 707 and the DC-8 both have that config in Y Class.

Boeing's original design used the same fuselage width as the KC-135, which would have only allowed for 5 abreast. In order to compete with the DC-8 design, Boeing widened the fuselage to accommodate 6 abreast. No 707s were actually produced with the narrower width - and that's one of the reasons the KC-135 isn't simply a "military 707", it has a completely different fuselage design.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24118 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 1):
United from the start favored 6 across seating on their jets.That is why they waited on the DC-8 over the 707 as it was proposed at the time that they ordered jets

Doesn't the 707 also have a 3-3 across seating? The 707 and the DC-8 both have that config in Y Class.
I believe that United also flew the Boeing 720, although a rather small fleet.

For that period, UA's order for 29 720s was a fairly significant number. UA was the largest original customer for the 154 720s and 720Bs built, followed by Western Airlines with 27 and AA with 25.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9387 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

I would say that United had a stronger relationship with Pratt & Whitney than they did with either Boeing or Airbus. At the beginning of the jet age, United partnered with Douglas in developing the DC-8 and being a big customer. However they also purchased Boeing products in the 707. The 727 was mainstay of every US airline along with the popular 757 and 767. United chose the 737 over the DC9, which continued until the they switched over to the A320 due to its range and performance numbers.

Nowadays, United doesn't really have allegiance to any supplier. They'll chase the best deal and model that complements their fleet the best.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 1):
United from the start favored 6 across seating on their jets

Was that really that big of a factor? That seems a bit odd to me. Cabin width might be heavily talked about in marketing, but isn't that big of a factor in deciding which manufacturer and model to choose.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24118 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 1):
United from the start favored 6 across seating on their jets

Was that really that big of a factor? That seems a bit odd to me. Cabin width might be heavily talked about in marketing, but isn't that big of a factor in deciding which manufacturer and model to choose.

I disagree. It's been widely reported that the 5 vs 6-abreast issue was by far the major reason why UA ordered the DC-8 originally, which forced Boeing to redesign the 707.

Many observers also think the Convair 880 and 990 would have been more successful had they been designed for 6-abresat seating.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

In the fall of 1957 Uniteds BOD gave the go ahead for the purchase for up to 30 CV-880's. Boeing, upon hearing of this, quickly reduced the size and capacity of the B720 to more closely fit Uniteds needs and also undercut Convairs pricing by $200,000 per aircraft to secure Uniteds order. It worked. United ordered 11 720's with options on 18 more. At the last minute Convair even offered United CV-880's with JT3C's, but to no avail.As to the DC-9, Uniteds engineering staff recommended a purchase of DC-9's over the 737, however when it came time to order, the 737 was purchased to keep commonality of spares with the 727 (which more were ordered at the same time)and because the 737 had a wider fuselage.The only problem United had with this order was that the Pilots union hadn't agreed to fly the 737 with a two man crew yet.

User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 267 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3187 times:
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Boeing decided to make the 707 fuselage wider after losing orders to Pan Am and United.Pan Am only ordered 20 707s for early delivery and DC-8s were the be the backbone of their jet fleet.When Boeing thought that American would buy DC8s they decided to produce the wider fuselage for the 120 and the 320 with a longer fuselage and new wing wuth JT4s for Pan Am.
United was part of United Aircraft and Airlines untill 1934.This included Boeing,United Airlines,Pratt&Whitney,and Hamilton Standard.


User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1252 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
They started United in 1931 and it was at the request of United that Boeing built the 247, the then rival of the Douglas DC-3.

The 247 predates the DC-2/DC-3 and the prototype-only DC-1. The 247's aerodynamics were tested in the Caltech labs, labs which Douglas also had access to. This situation led directly to Boeing creating it's own wind tunnel. But while Boeing's approach with that plane was a bit insular, Douglas used the DC-1 as a laboratory for the DC-2 much the way Boeing would use the Dash 80 20 years later as a laboratory for the 707. Douglas' end product, created through more testing and wider input (after troubling tests at Caltech, they revised the wing in testing in a government facility at Langley in Virginia), was better.

The 247 was designed for United, and it was designed mainly internally at Boeing. It was downsized slightly after the initial review by United and locked into that configuration, and Boeing's team spurned certain innovations Douglas developed on the DC-1, like the flaps. The result was a situation similar to what happened with the Hawker Siddeley Trident - designed to requirements for a specific customer that made it less competitive for almost everybody else.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
Doesn't the 707 also have a 3-3 across seating?

Initially, it did not, but having the same cross section as the 727 and 757, many 707's quickly went to 3-3. More importantly, when United placed an order for DC-8s, Boeing decided it didn't want to replay the 247 vs. DC-2, and widened the 707 at considerable expense. United had also only seen mock-ups of the 707 wherein the original plan for a heating system in the floor had raised the deck somewhat, making it seem even smaller.

As for the DC-9 vs. 727, United was a launch customer for the 727-100, and it was ready before the DC-9 - the initial versions of which were very small. There wasn't any reason for United to buy the DC-9 at that time, and eventually with a mixture of 727-100, 737-200, and 727-200, they could match all the points of the DC-9 and have better fleet commonality.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 9):
United was part of United Aircraft and Airlines untill 1934.This included Boeing,United Airlines,Pratt&Whitney,and Hamilton Standard.

IIRC, they were ordered by the gov't to split the businesses up.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1013 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2884 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 11):

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 9):
United was part of United Aircraft and Airlines untill 1934.This included Boeing,United Airlines,Pratt&Whitney,and Hamilton Standard.

IIRC, they were ordered by the gov't to split the businesses up.

   You are correct.....   


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 12):
Quoting mayor (Reply 11):

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 9):
United was part of United Aircraft and Airlines untill 1934.This included Boeing,United Airlines,Pratt&Whitney,and Hamilton Standard.

IIRC, they were ordered by the gov't to split the businesses up.

You are correct.....

Thanks. I think it had something to do with the scandal, at the time, with the postmaster general and the mail routes.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

Had they ordered the DC9:

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00009646.jpg

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00009668.jpg

[Edited 2012-01-09 11:26:05]


Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlinenomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 10):
The 247 was designed for United, and it was designed mainly internally at Boeing. It was downsized slightly after the initial review by United and locked into that configuration, and Boeing's team spurned certain innovations Douglas developed on the DC-1, like the flaps. The result was a situation similar to what happened with the Hawker Siddeley Trident - designed to requirements for a specific customer that made it less competitive for almost everybody else.

IIRC TWA wanted to order the 247 but Boeing told them the first 40 aircraft were for United. Jack Frye, TWA president did not want to wait until aircraft were available and thus sent his famous letter to Donald Douglas giving rise to the DC-1, & DC-2.


User currently offlineflflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Loved the Caravelle!

User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6414 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 13):
Thanks. I think it had something to do with the scandal, at the time, with the postmaster general and the mail routes.

That's correct. UA had a market share over 70 % of us passenger traffic in the USA at the time of the split........

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly...T5, CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24118 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 10):
Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
Doesn't the 707 also have a 3-3 across seating?

Initially, it did not, but having the same cross section as the 727 and 757, many 707's quickly went to 3-3.

Not correct. What early 707s were not 3-3 when first delivered? I can't think of any. Pan Am's early 707s, the first in service, were certainly 3-3, as were all other early 707 operators. If any 707s were factory-delivered with 5-abreast seating in economy class I would be interested to know which ones.


User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting nomadic (Reply 15):
IIRC TWA wanted to order the 247 but Boeing told them the first 40 aircraft were for United. Jack Frye, TWA president did not want to wait until aircraft were available and thus sent his famous letter to Donald Douglas giving rise to the DC-1, & DC-2.

FWIW Howard Hughes' Airline (Robert Serling, 1983) describes exactly that, on pages 30-31. At the risk of going off-topic, it's worth noting that TWA (and, more specifically, Charles Lindbergh) actually asked for a trimotor, but Douglas decided that a twin-engine would be better and had to convince TWA (and Lindbergh) that it was doable and safe.

[Edited 2012-01-09 18:17:35]


ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 267 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2345 times:
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The 707s that Pan Am originally ordered were the same width as the KC135 and would have had 5 across in coach.However,the fuselage was made wide enough to accomadate 6 across,to save Americans order.This was the 707 that went into service.

User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1941 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
Quoting drerx7 (Reply 2):
Besides didn't Boeing start United?

I believe they did. They started United in 1931 and it was at the request of United that Boeing built the 247, the then rival of the Douglas DC-3. But it turned out that only United flew the 247. 60 Boeing 247s were built. Since then, Boeing, United and Pratt & Whitney started working together, from the 247 to the 777 (not sure if their 787s will be PW powered).
Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 9):
United was part of United Aircraft and Airlines untill 1934.This included Boeing,United Airlines,Pratt&Whitney,and Hamilton Standard.

United Air Lines was a merger of four airlines: National Air Transport (NAT) that operated the original part of United's Route 1 from Chicago east via Toledo, Cleveland to New York; and a route from Chicago to Dallas via Moline, Kansas City, and other points. United forfeited this route in the airmail scandals of the early 30's, but kept Moline and added it to what was Route 1; Boeing Air Transport (BAT) that flew from Chicago west to San Francisco via Iowa City, Des Moines, Omaha, Lincoln, Grand Island, North Platte, Cheyenne, Rock Springs, Salt Lake City, Elko, Reno, Sacramento and Oakland; Pacific Air Transport that flew from San Diego to Seattle via Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland and Intermediate points, and Varney Air Lines that operated from Salt Lake City to Seattle via Boise, Portland, and Pasco. In 1934, the four merged to form UAL. Boeing with P&W formed United Aircraft and Transport Corporation in 1929. Previously, Boeing had purchased Pacific Air Transport.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 10):
As for the DC-9 vs. 727, United was a launch customer for the 727-100, and it was ready before the DC-9 - the initial versions of which were very small. There wasn't any reason for United to buy the DC-9 at that time, and eventually with a mixture of 727-100, 737-200, and 727-200, they could match all the points of the DC-9 and have better fleet commonality.

United did NOT choose the 727 instead of the DC-9. They ordered the 727 in late 1960. As was written, many at the company wanted to order the DC-9, because waiting for the 737 would cost them two years in the replacement of the DC-6, Convair, and Viscount with jet aircraft, but UAL went with the 737 because it supposedly shared 40% or more of its parts with the 727, and they had an article introducing the 737 in Mainliner Magazine that said so.

You must remember that Delta introduced the DC-9-14 in December of 1965, and the 737 didn't go into service until 29 months later at the end of April of 1968. During 1966 and 1967, TWA was flying DC-9's, and American had BAC-111's and Electras, and UAL had DC-6's, DC-6B's, and Viscounts, and believe me, while the Viscount was a nice airplane, it was no match for the Electra.

As far as the DC-9 being too small, yes it turned out to be but it held as many or more people as a DC-6.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Not correct. What early 707s were not 3-3 when first delivered? I can't think of any. Pan Am's early 707s, the first in service, were certainly 3-3, as were all other early 707 operators. If any 707s were factory-delivered with 5-abreast seating in economy class I would be interested to know which ones.

As Viscount knows, Boeing agreed to widen the fuselage to seat six across after losing United's order to Douglas and Pan Am ordered more DC-8's than 707's, when C.R. Smith told them if they widened it to one inch more than the DC-8, he would order the airplane but if they didn't, he was going with the DC-8.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 20):
The 707s that Pan Am originally ordered were the same width as the KC135 and would have had 5 across in coach.However,the fuselage was made wide enough to accommodate 6 across,to save American's order.This was the 707 that went into service.

That is exactly correct.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4269 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 14):
Had they ordered the DC9:

I love both those old liveries - would have been great if they had operated DC9s.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24118 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Not correct. What early 707s were not 3-3 when first delivered? I can't think of any. Pan Am's early 707s, the first in service, were certainly 3-3, as were all other early 707 operators. If any 707s were factory-delivered with 5-abreast seating in economy class I would be interested to know which ones.

As Viscount knows, Boeing agreed to widen the fuselage to seat six across after losing United's order to Douglas and Pan Am ordered more DC-8's than 707's, when C.R. Smith told them if they widened it to one inch more than the DC-8, he would order the airplane but if they didn't, he was going with the DC-8.

Yes, all of that was discussed earlier. I was replying to a post that implied that some 707s actually went into service initially with 5-abreast seating and were later changed to 6-abreast. I'm quite sure that wasn't the case.


User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1013 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2078 times:
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The Boeing 720 was a KC-135/717 variate. It was built and flown as five abreast seating in coach. Some people may confuse this model with the later build 707s which were all built with six abreast seating inncoach and a wider fuselage.
Almost all 707s Boeing built were the wider 320 version and not the original 720 version.   


25 Cargolex : And you'd be right. I stand corrected.
26 Spacepope : That is most certainly incorrect. The 720 was the same width as the 707, but 5 frames shorter than the -120 variant.
27 zippyjet : UA was the launch customer for the 737. They had the DC-8's both Palomar and stretch versions, 720, and 727. And then it was 1968 and the 737's debut.
28 Viscount724 : LH was the launch customer for the 737, not UA. LH's order for the 731 was almost 2 months before UA's first order for the 732. LH also took delivery
29 sparky35805 : All 707/720s were the same width.United did operate their 720 with 5 acroos coach for a time in the mid 60s.United was the launch customer for the 737
30 milesrich : Where did this come from? As someone else wrote, the 720 fuselage was the same width as the 707, just shorter NW did fly some of their 720's with bus
31 mcg : In the 60's my dad flew ORD-LGA quite often. UA actually had Caravelle operated flights that were sold to male passengers only. On the evening return
32 Spacepope : Someone posted a 737 sales brochure on this site a few weeks back. In it, Boeing initially offered 3-3 seating, with an option for wider seats in a 3
33 Viscount724 : 720 also had a different wing profile than the original turbojet 707-120 which reduced drag and permitted slightly faster speeds. The -120B with JT3B
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