Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Will DL Buy Any More Second Hand Aircraft?  
User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4847 times:

Now that DL has snapped up just about every MD-90 out there do you think the boys in ATL will try to get more second hand aircraft? I am thinking if there are some cheap second hand 319s and 320s on the market they might be making their way to ATL.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4843 times:

Did DL buy the Mad Dogs from SAS?

//Mike  



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4790 times:

I know there are some 717 rumors going around but I doubt anything will come of that. Can't really think of any area they'd get more used aircraft in, though wasn't there a thread about DL picking up some of GOL's (?) 767s? 2 of them or something?


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaddogJT8D From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
though wasn't there a thread about DL picking up some of GOL's (?) 767s? 2 of them or something?

There was also a second-hand 757 they picked up, N624AG. Not sure what the status of any of these other birds are though.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 959 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Quoting solnabo (Reply 1):
Did DL buy the Mad Dogs from SAS?

I think G4 bought a good number of the mad dogs from SAS



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5767 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

They may make an isolated, opportunistic purchase here or there, like the 757 they bought a few months ago. If it ends up being cheaper to buy and refit a used aircraft than to keep an existing aircraft in service, or if they find cheap parts-source aircraft, then they may jump. That could apply to any aircraft type they operate, but particularly to the 752 (cheap on the used market), the 763 (which will stay in their international fleet longer than it will for most operators) and the 738 (whose economics they love).

I think the only group of aircraft they're likely to buy is the remaining batch of JL MD-90s. There are 16; they've already signed for 9, and I expect they'll buy the other 7.

I don't think they'll acquire any 717s at this stage.

Quoting solnabo (Reply 1):
Did DL buy the Mad Dogs from SAS?

They bought all the MD-90s. They aren't buying any MD-80s from anywhere. Now that they've lined up replacements for their older 757s, the very oldest A320s, and the domestic 763s, MD-80 replacement is their next big fleet question.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting solnabo (Reply 1):
Did DL buy the Mad Dogs from SAS?

I thought they bought the JL and SV MD-90s. DL may need some more B-763/ERs to replace the older B-752s on TATL and other long routes. The B-739ERs won't be able to do TATL, unless some are converted to the B-739MAX (DL is not a MAX customer, yet).

The immediate concern at DL is replacing the oldest B-757s and B-767s. Getting second hand airplanes to replace them is quicker than ordering new builds, and there are airliners just waiting out in the deserts for someone to give them a second lease on life.

Quoting LV (Thread starter):
I am thinking if there are some cheap second hand 319s and 320s on the market they might be making their way to ATL.

Aren't the A-319/-320s they got with the NW merger some of the oldest Buses out there? If they are, they might be scheduled for replacement after about 2018, and around the time the MD-88s start to retire. That comes right back to the B-737MAX being a good possibility. Boeing will not let what happened with AA happen to DL. I think they (Boeing) learned their lesson. I doubt DL would look to get some used A-321s as they are not good B-75W replacements, and there is almost no chance of DL ordering the CLASSIC versions of the A-32X series now that the NEO and MAX is available.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
there is almost no chance of DL ordering the CLASSIC versions of the A-32X series now that the NEO and MAX is available

That goes to my original thought (although I didn't articulate it very well). With NEO's coming on line the price of classic 319's and 320's should drop to a point it my be cheaper to pick them up for fleet replacement or slight domestic expansion. In particular, I was thinking about how NK wants to drop it's 319's like fourth period french class and wondering if DL could pick some of them up at rock bottom prices, to the point it would make these birds good candidates to increase frequency on routes where frequency/ first class product are important and maybe replace larger RJ's in some growing markets (MOT comes to mind).


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5767 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
The immediate concern at DL is replacing the oldest B-757s and B-767s.

That (plus a few A320 replacements) is what the 737-900ER order was for. The next concern is MD-80s and additional A320s.


User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1397 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Boeing will not let what happened with AA happen to DL. I think they (Boeing) learned their lesson.

I'm not all that sure Boeing is unsatisfied by the AA deal. Word around the industry is that BAC actually only wanted to sell 200 or so 737s to AA, given the delivery slot constraints involved. Anymore and they wouldn't have been able to accommodate the order. Same again for Airbus.

Anyway, that's just what I've heard about it at work. Then I again, I also hear that AA & US are about to tie up any day now, so we know how valuable that info is,  


For the topic, I think DL will buy whatever they feel they need.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5767 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 7):
With NEO's coming on line the price of classic 319's and 320's should drop to a point it my be cheaper to pick them up for fleet replacement or slight domestic expansion.

If DL picks up used current-generation narrowbodies (which I doubt), I think they'll be 738s. They aren't (apparently) in love with the A319, and the A320 fleet is aging. Both the A320 and the 738 are holding value pretty well, so it's not a 757 situation where they can find a nice deal at the bottom of the barrel.


User currently offlineAlnicocunife From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

I believe that whatever Delta does they will be paying cash. It is my understanding that all aircraft acquisitions will be made from cash generated from operations. I think if any good quality aircraft become available, whatever type and Delta has a need for that aircraft, they will make the purchase. Really simple game plan, anything that makes Delta money, including buying use aircraft. I am glad the good old days and ego driven decisions are gone.

User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 971 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2896 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm not sure if people are using the word "buy" as a synonym for "acquire", but not all of the used aircraft acquisitions have been outright purchases. The SAS MD-90s are all leased, as is N624AG. The China Eastern, China Southern, and JAL (once they start arriving) MD-90s are purchased.

User currently offlineVictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2866 times:

There was a thread here recently with respect to five 77L and two 744 that AI were looking to lease to other airlines. If and only if the price was right, I could see these 77L flying with DL.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6808 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
I thought they bought the JL and SV MD-90s.

I believe the SV MD-90's are the only ones Delta doesn't want due to the cockpit differences.

Quoting LV (Thread starter):
I am thinking if there are some cheap second hand 319s and 320s on the market they might be making their way to ATL.

The issue as I see it is that the A320/319 fleet at Delta is getting up there in age; well over half of the A320's (not the A319's) are up close to 20 years now, if not over that. The decision to order the 739ER and 737MAX also seems to indicate the 737 as the future direction of the narrowbody fleet.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
If DL picks up used current-generation narrowbodies (which I doubt), I think they'll be 738s. They aren't (apparently) in love with the A319, and the A320 fleet is aging. Both the A320 and the 738 are holding value pretty well, so it's not a 757 situation where they can find a nice deal at the bottom of the barrel.

Agreed. I don't think the 130-seat aircraft size works all that well for DL since the additional trip cost for the A320 or 738 is almost negligible. The 10 73G's were ordered for a handful of markets where they needed the performance/range. The 738 is likely preferable for Delta since they get an extra ten seats for roughly the same trip costs as the A320.


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 13):
There was a thread here recently with respect to five 77L and two 744 that AI were looking to lease to other airlines. If and only if the price was right, I could see these 77L flying with DL.

But I doubt DL is in the market to lease some relatively new planes like AI's 77L's. It wouldn't surprise me if acquiring new 77L's directly from Boeing would be financially more attractive...

As soon as the first not too old A330's become available (I'm thinking of QR when they will be getting 787's on a regular basis, or SQ when they start receiving 787's and A350's), DL may very well jump on them. Or EK's earliest 77W's, those should become available from 2015 onwards, and could very well replace DL's 744's....



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7028 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 15):
But I doubt DL is in the market to lease some relatively new planes like AI's 77L's. It wouldn't surprise me if acquiring new 77L's directly from Boeing would be financially more attractive...

Depends on how desperate AI is to be getting some money back on these. There are not a lot of operators for the 77L; DL seems to be the one that likes them the best. If AI really needs the money they will offer them at a price DL will like.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

The 319s in their original config werent money making machines. Ive heard they've gotten better since F was reduced and Y increased, and should only get better once new slimlines are installed and they can add a few more seats (i believe another row of 6.


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5767 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 17):
The 319s in their original config werent money making machines. Ive heard they've gotten better since F was reduced and Y increased, and should only get better once new slimlines are installed and they can add a few more seats (i believe another row of 6.

Thanks for the update. I'd still be surprised to see used 319s show up, though.


User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Seabosdca,

Id be surprised too frankly. I think you'll continue to see opportunistic purchases of MD9s when the JAL birds become fully avail and some trickle 757 and 767 a/c, especially as they retire some of their own older machines



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineACdreamliner From UK - Scotland, joined May 2005, 519 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
since the additional trip cost for the A320 or 738 is almost negligible.

Older A319's have in some cases higher fuel burn per sector than new build A320's due to improvements on the A320 family manufacture and engine wear. So you basically get 30 seats for free (depending on config). As much as I like the A318/A319 as aircraft, they are really of little or no benefit over an A320.



Where are you going?
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Buying second hand aircraft has serious disadvantages but they are compensated by low purchase prices. With higher fuel prices and a still slow growing economy DL probably does not want to commit to more inefficient aircraft such as MD-90. It was a low cost way to expand the fleet but it will have a long term cost from their higher fuel burn. Of course there are not too many left that are not flying for DL. Newer second hand aircraft are much more expensive than the MD-90, which nobody else wanted. DL still has high financing costs so they do not want to spend too much on metal up front but they do not want to turn into AA and have a huge fleet of fuel hogs.

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7028 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 21):
DL still has high financing costs so they do not want to spend too much on metal up front but they do not want to turn into AA and have a huge fleet of fuel hogs.

This is the balancing act they have to perform. As fuel prices rise at some point it will be financially advantageous to swallow the enormous financing cost of new aircraft; assuming that they are still able to fill planes at fares that will pay the costs. But the lag time between ordering and receiving new aircraft has its own pitfalls; economic conditions can be very different when the plane actually rolls out of the factory door from when the papers get signed. This is especially true for the NEO and MAX planes, which are probably the ones of most interest to DL. Management has to have its own projections as to where they expect fuel prices to go; if they bet right they will make the right decisions, but if they bet wrong they can be in deep trouble. I suspect that this is part of what drove AA into BK; they were betting fuel prices would remain stable, and they could hang on to their Mad Dogs for a while longer and get their finances in order before ordering a slew of narrowbodies. But they were sunk by the significant rise in fuel prices over the last 3 years.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 21):



Keep in mind the 90 is no 88. The engine core is essentially the same as those found on the 320s, V2500s. On a PER SEAT basis, the fuel burn is palatable in the fact that it carries 160 passengers (same number as the 738).



What gets measured gets done.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011? posted Sat Oct 22 2011 06:47:19 by CRJ900X
Cathay Pacific: Why So Many Second Hand Aircraft? posted Tue Feb 2 2010 00:39:30 by SKAirbus
Second-Hand Aircraft Interiors... posted Fri Jul 11 2003 01:53:27 by Crosswind
Will Qantas Add Any More U.S Destinations? posted Fri Apr 28 2000 17:57:41 by VH-BZF
Aeroflot Buy 5 Second Hand A330s posted Wed Feb 21 2007 23:46:28 by FCKC
Flying Aircraft That You Can Tell Are Second Hand posted Tue Nov 14 2006 23:05:12 by ORDagent
Will BMIbaby Get Any New Aircraft? posted Fri Jan 23 2004 01:16:33 by EGFFbmi
Will BA Ever Buy/Lease Airbus Long Haul Aircraft? posted Sat Mar 23 2002 17:48:13 by Ammunition
Any Second Hand For 732s! posted Mon Jan 14 2002 12:22:16 by Ts-ior
Did DL Buy Additional MD-90s To Replace Only DC-9s posted Thu Jan 5 2012 17:44:47 by 747400sp