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Delta And 737 MAX Variants  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9311 times:

For the replacement of the older 757s and A320s, Delta has selected the 737-900ER as their replacement. Next on Delta's replacement radar is the MD-88 fleet, and it seems that the 737 MAX is the most likely candidate.

However, what is less obvious is which variants will DL order. In terms of size, the most direct replacement would be the 737-8 MAX, and DL has a history of replacing their older aircraft with newer ones of similar size (such as the 738s replacing 722s and 764ERs replacing L-1011s). However, DL could also split between the 737-7 MAX and 737-9 MAX (or even all three variants), thus giving DL more flexibility on certain routes.

If DL does order the 737 MAX (which is very likely) to replace the MD-88s, what variants would be the most likely?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9651 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9320 times:

I'd expect if they make a 737-MAX order it will be the -8 and -9. Delta only ordered the 73G so that they could have an airplane with good short field performance for airports like SNA and TGU.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9279 times:

Why does it seem like the MAX is the most likely candidate?

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9279 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 2):
Why does it seem like the MAX is the most likely candidate?

Boeing cannot afford to lose DL as a customer as what happened with AA ordering Airbus. Boeing will not stop to give one of their most loyal longtime customers a sweet deal that Airbus cannot match. They beat Airbus with the 739ER order (when many A.netters were expecting DL to choose the A321), and Boeing will probably do it again for a future 737 MAX order.

[Edited 2012-01-08 16:50:24]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9232 times:

How is DL different from AA in this regard?

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 4):
How is DL different from AA in this regard?

Well, the AA Airbus order was a major loss for Boeing, and Boeing will do everything it can to avoid losing DL to Airbus. They did it once with the 739ER order, and they will do it again for a future 737 MAX order.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

But you've got nothing remotely substantive to base that on?

User currently offlineEightball From Saudi Arabia, joined Oct 2007, 281 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9135 times:

I don't think it simply boils down to which manufacturer gives the sweetest deal. In AA's case, they chose the A321 and A319 from Airbus, so it looks like choosing aircraft for specific mission profiles was one of the reasons that AA went with Airbus to fulfill part of their narrow-body fleet renewal plan. I think that a more realistic scenario for a new narrow-body aircraft order from DL would be choosing the right aircraft for the job, not just looking for the sweetest deal.


Follow your dream.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9121 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 6):
But you've got nothing remotely substantive to base that on?

I'm basing it off common sense. I remember when everyone was expecting DL to order the A321, and look where that went.

Could we please get back to the subject of talking about which variants DL will order, rather than turning this into a Boeing vs. Airbus thread.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8987 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
Could we please get back to the subject of talking about which variants DL will order, rather than turning this into a Boeing vs. Airbus thread.

We could but that's very small-sighted. The fact is, DL could very well order a combination of A32XNEOs and 737s. In the airline industry recent history is just that - history.

Despite being a major Boeing fan, I would be doing my company a dis-service if I didn't look at the Airbus offering if I was CEO.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlinehomsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8921 times:

Quoting Eightball (Reply 7):
I don't think it simply boils down to which manufacturer gives the sweetest deal. In AA's case, they chose the A321 and A319 from Airbus, so it looks like choosing aircraft for specific mission profiles was one of the reasons that AA went with Airbus to fulfill part of their narrow-body fleet renewal plan. I think that a more realistic scenario for a new narrow-body aircraft order from DL would be choosing the right aircraft for the job, not just looking for the sweetest deal.

I thought AA's main reason for ordering from Airbus (and Boeing at the same time) was that neither manufacturer alone could supply the number of planes they needed quickly enough.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineairbuske From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8882 times:

Rumor has it that 717s are coming to replace the 88s

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8860 times:

Quoting airbuske (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that 717s are coming to replace the 88s

I wouldn't be surprised if DL gets some 717s, however, I don't expect they will replace the MD-88s, since the 717 is a significantly smaller aircraft.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5831 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8852 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
I'm basing it off common sense.

...While totally ignoring the common sense that Boeing wasn't particularly interested in losing AA either?

You speak as though Boeing were sleeping when AA made their order, but for the Delta order, they're more attentive?
Hardly. Both Boeing AND Airbus won the AA order- and AA comes out ahead, as they've eliminated the sole-supplier risk.

I fully expect Delta and United to make similar deals, given time.

As far as variants, I suspect either the 320NEO or MAX8 to rule the day at Delta.


User currently offlineliftsifter From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Something tells me this is an order for a few more neo's. Airbus is going to give DL a pretty good deal to try to get a new American carrier. Airbus seems to be snatching quite a few Boeing carriers with the neo!


A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A342 A343 A346 A380 B738 B744 B763 B772 B77W B787 Q400 E190
User currently offlineEightball From Saudi Arabia, joined Oct 2007, 281 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8690 times:

Quoting homsar (Reply 10):
I thought AA's main reason for ordering from Airbus (and Boeing at the same time) was that neither manufacturer alone could supply the number of planes they needed quickly enough.

Indeed; what I meant is that the ability to meet specific mission profiles must have been one of the reasons that AA put into consideration when choosing Airbus to fulfill part of their order.

[Edited 2012-01-08 18:59:37]


Follow your dream.
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8684 times:

717s don't make sense in the way MD-90s do. The engine was 717 only whereas the MD-90s are IAE if I recall. They should be significantly cheaper to maintain.

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8677 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 2):
Boeing will not stop to give one of their most loyal longtime customers a sweet deal that Airbus cannot match.

Neither will Airbus. Delta is now one of their most loyal longtime customers as well. And further, much of the DL management is comprised of former NW management who made the Airbus orders.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8642 times:

I totally hate that the forum's flaky quote attribution has stuck my name on the above. : /

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8559 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
Neither will Airbus. Delta is now one of their most loyal longtime customers as well. And further, much of the DL management is comprised of former NW management who made the Airbus orders.

All of the Airbus fans used this as a reason that DL will order A321s. Inheriting a fleet of Airbus aircraft and a former NW CEO being the CEO of DL means absolutely nothing about future orders.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8559 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):

Could we please get back to the subject of talking about which variants DL will order, rather than turning this into a Boeing vs. Airbus thread.

That's assuming Delta orders Boeing 737Max...

Hard to make that discussion when we don't know, not even you included knows who and what Delta will in itself order.

Quoting airbuske (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that 717s are coming to replace the 88s

That's been brought up, but not for a long time coming if true. WN is holding on to the 717's for quite some years.

If Delta wants to wait that long, that's perfectly fine! I find it hard to believe it'd be an MD88 replacement as mentioned above, it is much smaller then the MD88 capacity.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):

Well, the AA Airbus order was a major loss for Boeing

Where were you when AA also ordered 200+ airframes for the Boeing 737? You make it seem like Boeing got no orders from American when they in fact did. Almost 50% of the order. That's not bad, not a win of course, but not a loss in any significant way.

I would also lean with the 737-8 if Delta does order the MAX, it has the best CASM of the 3 737M Series which is a big advantage, but with Delta already ordering the 900ER, who knows.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8501 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
All of the Airbus fans used this as a reason that DL will order A321s. Inheriting a fleet of Airbus aircraft and a former NW CEO being the CEO of DL means absolutely nothing about future orders.

I don't recall that argument being made anywhere. In fact, the arguments I recall being made were that Anderson was saying "we're not buying shiny new objects," that at the end of the day the goal is to improve P&L and if an existing airframe can meet those goals at the fraction of the cost (i.e. existing technology at a cheaper cost vs. newer unproven technology) that diminishes the attractiveness of a re-engined aircraft such as the NEO or the 737MAX. Anderson has also reiterated time and again that a key component of their strategy is "making prudent investments for the future while maintaining our financial and capacity discipline." So this acknowledges that fuel efficiency is very important, but not if the initial cost of buying that fuel efficiency is so high. As FlightGlobal has repeatedly (and I think correctly) pointed out, Delta puts much more weight on ownership cost in aircraft purchases than on promised efficiency improvements.

The fact that much of DL's current management is comprised of former NW management certainly does matter, because it means they aren't wedded to the traditional DL way of thinking (which prior to Grinstein was to buy whatever new Boeing was coming off the line without giving it a second thought). So for you state, so absolutely and unequivocally, that the new 737 variant is "the most likely candidate" is an uneducated short sighted view, especially when one tracks the comments of the DL leadership on this issue to date.

Quoting delimit (Reply 18):
I totally hate that the forum's flaky quote attribution has stuck my name on the above. : /

I know. Don't know why that happens so much.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

Quoting airbuske (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that 717s are coming to replace the 88s



DL is not going to be taking on 717s in 2018 when a more viable replacement will already be on the market. Delta's general trend is to move capacity up will maintaining the same or cheaper operating cost. Taking on the 717 will be the exact opposite of what they've been doing (adding seats to the 88s; taking on the 90s that has the exact same seating capacity as the 738, etc.).

And BTW, the 2018 number comes from what's been thrown around for when most of the 88s will start to exit the fleet.

Now, this is just my personal and biased feeling, but I think they will go Boeing. That's just me and has nothing to do with the company...

Quoting Eightball (Reply 7):



Others will tell you, but DL is all about the bottom line (now and in the past). If they can get 737s at a bargain compared to the competition and the ownership cost over the life of the frame will be much cheaper than option B, while maintaining competitive costs (fuel consumption, etc) they'll go with the former. Just look at the 739ER order. This is also evident in their comitment to the MD-90. They've weighed ownership much higher than a shiney new jet. The 90s carry the exact same amount of people as the 738 in the same configuration (16FC 144YC). The range is obviously not there but it does most of what DL needs. Generally up to 1500 miles which is what yoee out of MSP to the likes of GEG and SEA.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7692 times:

While DL's order 739ER's certainly means Boeing has a good chance of a follow-on order for the 737MAX, I believe both Airbus and Bombardier are not to be dismissed either. It shouldn't be forgotten that the next narrowbody order is years away before happening anyway, and by that time the Cseries and P&W's GTF may very well be in active service. And if both are working reliably, and the GTF is beating specs (according to Lightsaber, P&W could have as much as 4% better fuel consumption as promised), I'm inclined to think DL will prefer to order Airbus or Bombardier planes with GTF rather than a still unproven LEAP-X engine...


146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinehomsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 23):
Quoting delimit (Reply 18):
I totally hate that the forum's flaky quote attribution has stuck my name on the above. : /

I know. Don't know why that happens so much.

OT, but addressing this oft-complained-about issue. It happens when someone highlights text from one message, but clicks "Quote Selected Text" from another message. It adds the name and reply number of the message where the button was clicked, not where the text was highlighted.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
All of the Airbus fans used this as a reason that DL will order A321s.

It seems to me that throwing out terms like "Airbus fans" (or "Boeing fans," but I don't think that appears in this thread) is what draws people into an A vs B war, which, I thought, you were trying to avoid.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
Could we please get back to the subject of talking about which variants DL will order, rather than turning this into a Boeing vs. Airbus thread



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
25 Tistpaa727 : I think you should state that as "might" instead of "will". I would like to see a Boeing order too but I also understand DL has to do what is best fo
26 rangercarp : I think you might have this backwards. Because the 739ER order went to Boeing, it does appear Boeing may have the upper hand for the next narrowbody
27 1337Delta764 : Boeing will never stop to lose DL. If Airbus provides DL a sweet deal, Boeing will counter it with an even sweeter deal that Airbus will be unable to
28 alitalia744 : 1337Delta764, You need to realize that there is nothing to say DL wont buy Airbus. Despite what you, others or I even may want (which is a Boeing orde
29 catiii : Also remember that was under a totally different regime, that bought Boeing jets blindly based on loyalty. You continue to refuse to take into accoun
30 RoseFlyer : I don't think that is true. I don't think it can be said with certainty if the MAX would be ordered over the NEO. Many on this thread are posting the
31 FlyASAGuy2005 : Blindly? If I could buy a 737-800 for $10 or an A320 for $15, while both are equally competative and my ownership cost over the life of the mortgage
32 aeropiggot : Boeing has comittements for over 1000 737MAX, I would bet Delta is included.
33 Post contains links redflyer : That may have been a benefit, but I don't think that was the reason. Clearly, the news at the time indicated that Boeing was caught sleeping with the
34 FlyASAGuy2005 : Historically, DL does not make UFO orders. If they ordered the MAX they would be listed and you would know about it.
35 KC135TopBoom : By then CFMI will have some real good data on the LEAP-1A/-1B engines. Yes, Airbus will do everything they possibily can to win the DL NB order. But
36 catiii : I think you and I are saying the same thing. My sense is that under Allen and Mullin, they blindly bought all Boeing because they wanted the newest a
37 FlyASAGuy2005 : I like how you put that last line. Good point!
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