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DOT Order On DCA Slot Exemptions Overturned-SY/RW  
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

A US appeals court has overturned a year-old order by the US Department of Transportation (DOT) that cost Republic Airways Holdings two coveted slot exemptions at Washington National airport.

The court's decision will likely force Sun Country Airlines to give the slots back to Republic.

The ruling on 6 January also reinforces a series of precedents allowing airlines to automatically take over slot exemptions by acquiring or merging with another carrier.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...exemptions-for-sun-country-366641/

If I understand this correctly, Sun Country will now be forced to give up their slots, and give them back to Republic who in turn will let Frontier use them again?

Also...poor journalism or who's 737's are these?

Frontier would continue service to Kansas City, but downgrade the aircraft from the former Midwest-owned Boeing 737 to an Embraer regional jet.

What does this mean for SY or other carriers who got slots through other means?

Alex


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23301 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):
Frontier would continue service to Kansas City, but downgrade the aircraft from the former Midwest-owned Boeing 737 to an Embraer regional jet.

Poor journalism or a typo - it was YX 717s on the route.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26137 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Couple points.

1) DOT can appeal and pursue this further if it wishes.

2) More specifically what the court ruling did was to make the SY allocation invalid, and instruct the DOT to re-review the Republic allocation again. The exact language was "Accordingly, we grant Republic’s petition for review and vacate DOT’s order." The court found the DOT "departed from its precedent without adequate explanation"
= Its entirely possible the DOT will come up with the same conclusion, or atleast one that is more air tight, especially if they pursue an appeal.

3) Lastly, these are DOTs own rules. If the court found a crack in them which Republic was able to pursue, the DOT will undoubtedly issue new policy language to make it less ambiguous.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1663 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Thanks for the info LAX. It is interesting that since this was DOT policy itself that it was appealed to a court. It seems odd, although Republic must feel happy at least in the short term.

What is the probable outcome. I would hope in the end SY was able to keep the slots, as it seems like they are doing fairly well on the LAN-DCA route, although I believe they are going down for a short time during the winter schedule

Edited after seeing the 2nd reply

[Edited 2012-01-08 19:42:34]


Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23301 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
1) DOT can appeal and pursue this further if it wishes.

Unlikely. Why would the Supreme Court review it?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Its entirely possible the DOT will come up with the same conclusion, or atleast one that is more air tight,

Much more likely, but other things being equal, it tends to be harder to win the second time around after the courts have reversed the agency once.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 12336 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4761 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Bad news for Sun Country. Once again a small airline looses to an airline with more money that can afford court action

User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 5):
Bad news for Sun Country. Once again a small airline looses to an airline with more money that can afford court action

Well..it seems the consensus is that SY should never have gotten the slot in the first place.

RW should have been allowed to keep them after the take over of YX/F9, that's what the proceeding is about.

I believe, correct me if I am wrong, has nothing to do with who has more money to go to court.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23301 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 5):
Once again a small airline looses to an airline with more money that can afford court action

You'd prefer that DOT just be allowed to do whatever it wants with no accountability?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26137 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 6):
Well..it seems the consensus is that SY should never have gotten the slot in the first place.

I'm certainly not in that concensus.

SY had a pretty good bid. Its very nicely matched 3 of the 4 criterias of the slot access goals (listed below) while Lansing itself just prior also had received a SCASD grant to reestablish a DCA link.

o Community without existing nonstop DCA service
o Small Community
o Low fare competitive benefits
o Competition on a monopoly route


Their bid, and airport grant matched up quite cleverly imo.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4350 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

I'm certainly not in that concensus.

I should rephrase...

RW should never have lost the slots in the first place.

Yes under the definition you gave SY met it, but it seems DOT should never have forced RW to give up the slots as a result of the merger based on the article.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26795 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
Unlikely. Why would the Supreme Court review it?

The name of the actual court was not printed. Its entirely possible that a district court was acting as the appellate court of first instance from an administrative court.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4223 times:
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Quoting 777ER (Reply 5):
Bad news for Sun Country.

Bad news for Sun Country, indeed, if it stands. But it was bad news for Frontier when the slots were taken away.

Especially since the DOT intended to take away even more slots (from Republic/Frontier) for similar reasons:

DOT Launches DCA Slot Proceeding (by LAXintl Aug 30 2010 in Civil Aviation)

LAXintl - OP: The DOT today has commenced slot proceeding to reallocate former 7 Midwest Airlines DCA slots.
Initially DOT is soliciting applications for two Vision-100 %u201Cwithin perimeter%u201D slot pairs currently used by Frontier on DCA-MCI services."


Perhaps aggravated by the DOT not recognizing at the time that Frontier is a "limited incumbent" which it does recognize now.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 922 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Aside from the timing (2001), how is this situation different than when American's purchase of TWA did not allow them to take over DCA-LAX?

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23301 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Its entirely possible that a district court was acting as the appellate court of first instance from an administrative court.

No, it was the D.C. Circuit. The case number is 11-1018, and the opinion was issued on Friday.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2058 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

What many of you don't understand is SY wanted to move its flights from IAD to DCA to offer lower fares out of MSP. This opened up an opportunity for them to do just that. SY already was serving LAN with winter flights to Sun destinations (MCO, LAS, CUN etc) I understand that DCA is slot restricted, but why does one or two airlines need to control so many??

Worse case SY may move its flights back to IAD, but I don't think SY will roll over and play dead on this one. It more then likely will get tied up in the courts for a few years. If not by SY, by DOT then.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):

No, it was the D.C. Circuit. The case number is 11-1018, and the opinion was issued on Friday.

Yes. As per standard administrative procedure in DC. I'd say the chances of it getting SCOTUS review are about zero.


User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1663 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Ran across this artilce in our local paper. It was nice to hear that SY has been suprised by how successful the route has been and is committed to the route

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/a...y=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5225 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 12):


Aside from the timing (2001), how is this situation different than when American's purchase of TWA did not allow them to take over DCA-LAX?

DCA beyond-perimeter slots may not be sold, only reallocated. Since AA bought TWA assets that authority went back to the DOT and was later awarded to AS. However, America West had LAS/PHX-DCA slots which they kept since they were the acquirer of US. Had US bought HP, those slots would also have been subject to reallocation.



The best IFE: A window seat and a good book.
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

I feel bad for SY. It wasn't their fault, but it wasn't Republic's fault either. I feel worse for LAN.

The article says - "Sun Country has had 47,921 passengers on the Minneapolis-Lansing-Washington, D.C., route since starting service in April 2011." Those aren't bad numbers, but I wonder how many of those passengers originated at MSP vs. LAN. If most of the passengers were originating in MSP then the yields get trashed by making the aircraft stop in LAN. It means LAN isn't big enough to support the DCA flight on their own with such a big aircraft, and for SY, it's really about MSP and getting access to DCA.

Personally, I'd like to see F9 and SY work something out with some type of alliance/code share.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2999 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

For the first six months of SY's DCA-LAN-MSP the averate DCA departure had:

30.8 Lansing-bound passengers
56.3 Minneapolis-bound passengers
43.0 empty seats

Load factor 66.9%


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23301 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 19):
For the first six months of SY's DCA-LAN-MSP the averate DCA departure had:

Seems like that might work on something smaller than a 73G at the right fare.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2058 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 19):
For the first six months of SY's DCA-LAN-MSP the averate DCA departure had:

Seems like that might work on something smaller than a 73G at the right fare.

The 737-700 is the smallest plane you will see SY fly. Even that took awhile to get used to. The 737-800 was the smallest they had behind the 727 and DC-10.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23301 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 21):
The 737-700 is the smallest plane you will see SY fly.

I know. I didn't say that it seemed like it would work on SY.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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