Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Will AA Fall Like TW & PA?  
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 380 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10632 times:

You know, I have been in the AAdvantage program 26 years., I have been a travel agent for 21 years. There's something really spooking me about this BK filing. I remember the days of old where AA was a trail blazer and would do things nobody would do. No they're sitting back awaiting for life to pass it by. Some would argue they waited too long to replace the MD80's, and others would say their flagship service that's being proposed is barely on the scale of the likes of EK or CX. Nobody ever thought PA would go Braniff would be 86'd etc--even MX (which was ancient too) all GONE. Are we going to see a trail blazing come back with the likes of someone with new blood that only Bob CrAAndall had? What's is going to take. I wisely cashed out every frequent flyer mile I have, and my son and I are going on 3 int'l trips on other OneWorld partners. I hope my old friend stays around...

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGizmoNC From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10645 times:

I think if you asked the majority of the former TWA employees that AA shafted they would COMMENT: HELL YES, Let AA Falter, Fail or fade away into the dust.

User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3284 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10556 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
flagship service that's being proposed is barely on the scale of the likes of EK or CX.

No one should ever argue that they're on the same level, because they aren't anywhere close to it, nor do they intend to be. AA's offering is still arguably the best of the US airlines, especially in the premium cabins. Particularly

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I wisely cashed out every frequent flyer mile I have, and my son and I are going on 3 int'l trips on other OneWorld partners

Wisely? Hardly. You're entirely overreacting. It's a Chapter 11 proceeding, no different than all of the other legacy carriers who went through it. There really isn't an airline that's in a position to attempt a hostile takeover, and even if there were, your miles would be transferred. In ANY merger, American would be the surviving brand.

AA's business model is basically sound, and Ch 11 will go a long way towards fixing a lot of their major issues (labor costs etc...).

No need to be paranoid.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlinemiaami From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10530 times:

Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 1):
I think if you asked the majority of the former TWA employees that AA shafted they would COMMENT: HELL YES, Let AA Falter, Fail or fade away into the dust.

Wishing even more Americans to the unemployment line - NICE!!! I hope you realize that AA's work group includes former TWA employees. They too will be unemployed if AA were to "fade away"


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10411 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 2):
AA's offering is still arguably the best of the US airlines, especially in the premium cabins. Particularly

LAST among the Big-3 to offer flat-bed in business class... how is that "arguably the best" ? That F seat on 777 is okay but nothing to write home either (you rarely see people on FT writing big fat trip reports on AA F).


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10251 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 4):
LAST among the Big-3 to offer flat-bed in business class... how is that "arguably the best" ? That F seat on 777 is okay but nothing to write home either (you rarely see people on FT writing big fat trip reports on AA F).

Bingo. Angled lie-flats is pathetic for a carrier of their size. By Memorial Day, US Airways will have lie-flats on most of their long-haul flights with the A330s being done, with those planes all having direct aisle access. Delta has true lie-flats with aisle access on all 777s and 767-400s with 767-300s and 747s being done as we speak. Continental is all true lie-flat on the 757 and 777 fleet, and United is on the 747/767 (and over half of the 777) fleet.

The AA Flagship Suite is about a decade old at this point as well; not innovative by any stretch of the imagination. If I were an AA person buying a F ticket to Europe, I'd make sure it was on the new BA First seat rather than take an outdated 777 F seat. It's acceptable if you're using an eVIP certificate from Business Class, but that's about it.


User currently offlineHKG212 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2008, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10198 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
Bingo. Angled lie-flats is pathetic for a carrier of their size. By Memorial Day, US Airways will have lie-flats on most of their long-haul flights with the A330s being done, with those planes all having direct aisle access. Delta has true lie-flats with aisle access on all 777s and 767-400s with 767-300s and 747s being done as we speak. Continental is all true lie-flat on the 757 and 777 fleet, and United is on the 747/767 (and over half of the 777) fleet.

Unlike DL and UA, AA upgraded their J product with lightening speed; the current seat has been in place on all 777s and 767s (and some 757s) for the last 5 years, whereas UA still flies some 777s with an appalling 1990's product. DL J products are still all over the map. With AA you can at least expect consistency.

I also personally find the AA angled seats quite comfortable, especially on the 777. I sleep better on them than on some lie-flat products, including CX and LA.


User currently offlineSplitterz From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10088 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 2):
No one should ever argue that they're on the same level, because they aren't anywhere close to it, nor do they intend to be. AA's offering is still arguably the best of the US airlines, especially in the premium cabins. Particularly

That's a joke right? Have you not stepped foot on another legacies international F class offering?


User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1056 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9933 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
Bingo. Angled lie-flats is pathetic for a carrier of their size. By Memorial Day, US Airways will have lie-flats on most of their long-haul flights with the A330s being done, with those planes all having direct aisle access. Delta has true lie-flats with aisle access on all 777s and 767-400s with 767-300s and 747s being done as we speak. Continental is all true lie-flat on the 757 and 777 fleet, and United is on the 747/767 (and over half of the 777) fleet.

The AA Flagship Suite is about a decade old at this point as well; not innovative by any stretch of the imagination. If I were an AA person buying a F ticket to Europe, I'd make sure it was on the new BA First seat rather than take an outdated 777 F seat. It's acceptable if you're using an eVIP certificate from Business Class, but that's about it.

Delta and United still have recliners in International J. All of AA's fleet features an angled, lie-flat seat. (That has been the case for a number of years.) For all its faults, AA's J Seat is much better than the recliners that United has on some of its 777's and DL on almost all of its 763's. (On the international side, AA's seat is also equivalent to what Lufthansa and AirFrance continue to provide on the majority of their international fleets.)

Have you flown in the AA F Suite? No matter its age, the swivel feature is still very cool and was quite innovative when it was introduced. The seat will be updated for the new 777W's. With an update to the shell, the, finishes, and the technology, plus the swivel feature, it will easily leapfrog United's new first seat.

The 777W (and one assumes the 787) will also get a new J seat, with direct aisle access from each seat. Based on AA's description of the seat, it looks like it is going to be the Sicma Cirrus seat. Expect AA to outfit theirs like Cathay and not Delta or US Airways.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9794 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
Delta and United still have recliners in International J. All of AA's fleet features an angled, lie-flat seat. (That has been the case for a number of years.) For all its faults, AA's J Seat is much better than the recliners that United has on some of its 777's and DL on almost all of its 763's.

AA way to phrase it : DL and UA has some ancient seats while all of ours are good enough against the European majors.

UA/DL way to phrase it : many of ours are flat-bed and AA has none currently in service.

And I wouldn't call AA F a "suite" in the 2012 context .... these days you need a sliding door to qualify for that coveted designation.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9763 times:

AA is, has been and continues to be the only major U.S. airline with a lie-flat business class product on every long-haul plane, whether it has one asile or two. End of story.

And it will begin rolling out a redesigned product in October 2012, which it will likely begin to implement at a very fast pace across its fleet, just like it did last time. Although I am told the new seats will not fit on the 763, so AA will need another product for that.



a.
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3284 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9662 times:

Quoting Splitterz (Reply 7):
Have you not stepped foot on another legacies international F class offering?

Well, seeing as there's only one other US legacy carrier with F, I think my statement stands. I haven't flown UA's F, but I've flown AA's F, and it's still leaps and bounds ahead of what either UA or DL offers in the biz/first hybrid, even being over a decade old. I've read quite a few reports on UA's F compared to AA's F, and just about every one I've read shows AA's product in a much more positive light. I'm talking about the overall experience, not just the seat (though I'd still put the Flagship Suite up against the new UA F...it won't be a contest with the new suite on rolled out on the 77W).

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing, here? Are UA's and DL's offering better than AA J? Sure (though based on my experiences and what I've seen on reviews), AA's catering still seems to be better. But only two airlines have a true F in the United States, and so when I'm comparing premium products, it's really a two-headed fight: AA and UA. I have my preference (though I admit I'm not in a position to give a direct comparison since I've only flown one), which is why I included the word "arguably."

Anyone arguing UA or DL J is better than AA F is just being asinine.

And as others said, I know exactly what product I'm getting if I'm flying in an AA premium cabin. No other airline can say that.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineHKG212 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2008, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9647 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 9):
And I wouldn't call AA F a "suite" in the 2012 context .... these days you need a sliding door to qualify for that coveted designation.

That would rule out CX, BA, LH, and in fact I believe all but two airlines calling their F "suite".


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2862 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9569 times:

I'm amazed by all these doomsday scenario threads that have popped up about AA, DFW, etc. Have people forgotten that *ALL* of AA's legacy peers have undergone this exact same bankruptcy process to become the thriving carriers they are today?!? AA isn't going anywhere. Yes they will be eliminating some aircraft, routes, and stations in the bankruptcy process - just as the other airlines did. But fear not - AA will emerge as a stronger carrier that can much more effectively compete.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3284 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9395 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 13):

  

The truth is, anytime something this noteworthy happens, there's going to be a lot of discussion on it, naturally. A lot of what makes things like this interesting is playing the "what if" game. We're all aviation enthusiasts, and it can be fun to speculate about what would happen when two carriers merge, even though we often oversimplify it to fleets and route structures. As enthusiasts, these details interest us a lot more than the actual driving forces behind a merger/takeover.

As such, people lose sight of the fact that this process isn't likely to result in any drastic changes to the framework of commercial aviation in the United States. Barring something unforeseen, American will come out of this leaner, meaner, and more competitive in today's airline industry.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9342 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
Well, seeing as there's only one other US legacy carrier with F, I think my statement stands. I haven't flown UA's F, but I've flown AA's F, and it's still leaps and bounds ahead of what either UA or DL offers in the biz/first hybrid,

Huh. You have never flown UA in International first but the AA old suite is better than UA new suite. Is that what you are saying. Amazing, if true.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
AA is, has been and continues to be the only major U.S. airline with a lie-flat business class product on every long-haul plane, whether it has one asile or two. End of story.

Oh no, not the we have a lie flat seat that doesn't lie flat seat arguement again!

All I would say on the subject is that AA is going nowhere and will be around for many years to come, its just a shame that they have gone backwards iin the last 10 years and not tried to get ahead of the pack. THere should have been lie flat seats in J installed before the current seats and the F Suite should have been changed by now. I just wonder if they would have changed any of these seats if the 77W was not coning into the fleet.....that has prompted them to hopefully get ahead of the curve.

I wish them well going forward.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9313 times:

I think AA will just wilt on the vine. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere or sorting itself out.

As an aviation enthusiast I have problems with all the US carriers. Their product seems so confused. I end up asking myself, do they provide free food on transatlantics, are the drinks free, will I have to pay for headphones etc. If I buy a J class ticket is it Y service in a big seat? So I just book BA and avoid all these complications.

AA should be at the leading edge of aviation for the USA. It needs to define its product through advertising.


User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5505 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 1):
I think if you asked the majority of the former TWA employees that AA shafted they would COMMENT: HELL YES, Let AA Falter, Fail or fade away into the dust.

You mean, all the folks whose airline was broke and dead? AA did nothing to these people, other than try to salvage some value from the rubble.

AA/TW was not a merger. AA bought assets and, thoughtfully, hired people, too.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9046 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

TWA and PA sold many divisions before finally closing their doors. AA has not sold any part of its self to save the ship. AA was the buyer of many legacy airlines former operations which today are saving AA, Miami was Eastern's and LHR was from TWA. AA didn't buy any PA operations, those were sold to UA in 3 transactions and 1 to Delta.

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6875 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

The simple fact of the matter is that the US has too many major airlines, and the cutthroat competition is keeping all of them from earning a decent profit. If AA does not fold (and I don't think it will) it definitely should merge. Since UA and DL have both recently merged it makes sense that the remaining candidate is US (yes, there is a thread about that that I have not read.) But whether or not the cultures of US and AA can merge is the big question; I don't know enough about either to venture an opinion. An aviation world that has one fewer major carrier will be healthier than the current one, and perhaps some sanity can introduce itself into the airline business in this country.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineGEN2STEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

C'mon really?! Barring something cataclysmic happening, impossible. With four something Billion in the bank, an aggressive management team as well as a decent to stong route network, new A/C coming, and a plan to exit BK, again, not really possible.
The same pot stirring speculation occured when UA, CO, US, US (again), DL, and NW filed Bk.



I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
User currently offlinemicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8796 times:

Quoting GEN2STEW (Reply 20):
an aggressive management team

An aggressive management team? I'm just curious why you say that. I find them to be very passive. Haven't seen anything major out of them in a while.



S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8753 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
AA is, has been and continues to be the only major U.S. airline with a lie-flat business class product on every long-haul plane, whether it has one asile or two. End of story.

AA is, and has been and continues to be the only major U.S. airline WITHOUT a true flat-bed business class product on ANY long-haul-plane (the 77W is not here yet). End of story.


User currently offlineGEN2STEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8703 times:

Quoting micstatic (Reply 21):
An aggressive management team? I'm just curious why you say that. I find them to be very passive. Haven't seen anything major out of them in a while.

Agreed, I should have said recently.
AApey and CO. were qiute passive, but the action(s) taken in the past 6 weeks are signs that they are finally waking up in Fort Worth.



I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8669 times:

Quoting GEN2STEW (Reply 23):
AApey and CO. were qiute passive, but the action(s) taken in the past 6 weeks are signs that they are finally waking up in Fort Worth.

   THIS is the change much needed at AA. Finally a CEO that runs the company by the numbers and not by pride.

The recent "ODD"-DEL drop is a prime example. AI entering the market is just an easy excuse to exit, but given AI's reputation, I would suspect the route being struggling even before AI arrived. In the next 12 months we'll definitely see more of these "pride" routes that will finally be rightsized/downsized/dumped-on-partners (something that would've never happened under Arpey)


25 huxrules : As someone who is flying them GIG-DFW tomorrow in Y with - get this - 30" pitch I say let them die. This bankrupt company is abusing Chapter 11 and sh
26 Dornier328JET : Surely the 73000 American Airlines employees deserve to be out of a job because their carrier doesn't offer Y+, has a visually unimpressive website,
27 commavia : Exactly. AA is just going through the same process as has occurred at every one of their peers. No different, no better, no worse. Those other airlin
28 Post contains images txjim : This is one thing I don't understand about the airline business. The company I work for (we have systems in many of the aircraft you all fly) just co
29 flymia : So DL, UA, US, and former CO and NW all should be gone too right? With your logic that is what should happen to actually AA would be the only one lef
30 ckfred : First, AA is not going to disappear like PA, TW, and BN. Pan Am had a global route system, but little domestic feed into its primary gateways. Buying
31 mikey72 : The paradoxical outcome of Chapter 11 provisions is for most others to suffer after AA emerges with a lower cost structure and they will also be in a
32 SEPilot : It is interesting that all but one US airline that existed before deregulation has now gone through or is now in bankruptcy, and several have disappea
33 Trucker : Reading through this thread one gets the feeling that the key to an American airline being sucessful is what kind of seat they have in the front of th
34 commavia : ... just as how AA suffered mightily while their competitors used the bankruptcy process. AA is now following their lead. True. Alliance partnerships
35 The777Man : UA has IFE on basically ALL its fleet (there may be a few ex-CO 738s with no audio entertainment). ALL of Pre-merger UA;s flight had video entertaine
36 mogandoCI : Let's out-source all long-haul flying to BA/JL/LA and outsource all short-haul flying to low-cost regionals, then we don't even need that cost-center
37 olddominion727 : Yes, and of those carriers, CO is gone (first quarter 2012), NW, US & HP are all gone. The US name is still here but that's because HP bought the
38 miaami : I little dramatic wouldn't you say? AA drops 2 routes and now the sky is falling!?
39 commavia : Well of course that's the challenge. It's understandable. The business models upon which AA, Continental, Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways or t
40 TOMMY767 : While dated, those are still arguably, more comfortable than AA's J seat. I'm sorry, but that thing is a piece of crap. It's not comfortable, they ha
41 777STL : Not the ones that are still receiving benefits, obviously. While I mostly agree with you, AA missed the boat by not declaring BK years ago when all o
42 LAXdude1023 : Having been a Medallion on SkyMiles and a Primier on UA, SkyMiles is not even in the same boat as AAdvantage or MilagePlus. The program is next to wo
43 TOMMY767 : 'Angled' cannot mean 180 degrees. I was really suggesting mileage plus which is extremely comparable to AAdvantage. Skypecos is OK -- it all depends
44 mogandoCI : I think it means it's 180 deg from head to toe, but not 180 against the horizon Those seats are horrible because they're designed to make you continu
45 Splitterz : No kidding. I find it hard to believe as well that AA's premium class offering is any better than DL or UAs. I think having a reclining seat is an in
46 Post contains images lightsaber : Wow... much animosity both ways. The reality is AA has to cut the cash burn and quickly. Faster than I'm seeing them currently cut. AA will help, but
47 olddominion727 : I am sure all of the other defunct "major US carriers" thought the same. PanAm was a household name. TWA was too for that matter. AA keeps going to E
48 Post contains images realsim : I think management should be more agressive in network expansion, as well as in recruitment of new OneWorld partners. However, you should not forget
49 ckfred : There were three problems with RDU and BNA. First, neither city had a sufficient amount of O&D traffic. Airlines thought they could put a hub any
50 Boeing773ER : I'm sure you had plenty of options, you could of flew DL US UA/CO or any other airline. So I'm sure AA was not your only option, and they do not dese
51 commavia : The bankruptcy process is moving along expeditiously. AA has a huge cash cushion - which no other post-9/11 bankrupt legacy had - and that cash is no
52 Max Q : They could fail, just like any Airline in this Country. No one is too big or too important.
53 olddominion727 : @trucker, you're right and I am sorry for that. I've been laid off 2x for 20 months each time from 9/11 and a slow economy. I pray for all of the TW,
54 Longhornmaniac : I am not saying that. I am saying that the old AA suite is still competitive with the new UA suite, and will likely be better when the new Flagship S
55 ASFlyer : Alaska has never filed for bankruptcy. They were at deaths door several times in their past but still never filed ch. 11
56 SEPilot : I should have limited my statement to major carriers; I do not consider Alaska to have been a major carrier during regulation; although it is now.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Will AA Keep The TW Registration On Former TW A/c? posted Thu Mar 21 2002 21:40:52 by TrnsWrld
What Will AA Do With TW's Euro Routes? posted Wed Mar 21 2001 00:18:26 by AA767400
What Will Post-Ch11 AA Look Like? Pt.2 posted Wed Dec 7 2011 06:20:29 by enilria
Will AA (former TW) B-757s Get Winglets? posted Mon May 29 2006 18:13:06 by KC135TopBoom
What Will Aviation Be Like In 50-100 Years Time? posted Sun Oct 16 2011 18:50:28 by LGWflyer
Will AA Fly To HKG? posted Sun Sep 25 2011 01:34:11 by United Airline
How Many Pilots Will AA Lose This Month? posted Fri Sep 23 2011 05:28:02 by xdlx
Will AA Ever Have A 100 Seat Plane (again)? posted Wed Nov 24 2010 17:07:29 by GlobalCabotage
When Will AA Upgrade Its Website? posted Fri Oct 22 2010 10:00:08 by Yazoo
Will AA Report Strong Earnings? posted Tue Oct 19 2010 10:21:28 by Yazoo