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AF/ KL In Serious Financial Trouble  
User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31815 times:

The January print edition of www.capital.fr exposes AF's financial dire straits.
It has accumalated debts since March 2009 of over €6.5BN compared with LH's €1.6BN.
AF pilots fly an average of 620HRS P/A versus LH 700HRS P/A and both earn an average of €110K.
EZ pilots fly 800HRS and earn €100K.
AF pilots cost 34% more.
In 2011,AF shareprice has dropped by 70%!.
On European routes,it loses €600M P/A!
The restruction plan by the new CEO,Juniac will be met by strong resistance from powerful unions and if François Hollande wins in May,there will be none.
Last year,LH surpassed AF/KLM in terms of PAX.
The other issue is safety and www.planecrash.info gives AF a massive thumbs down.
IMO,AF must go really upmarket for longhaul and totally downmarket for shorthaul in order to be economically viable.
The other problem is image:AF does not get anybody's rocks off!
CEO Juniac admires SQ and rumour has that it will join SkyTeam this year.

200 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3125 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31762 times:

What airline will be joining SkyTeam?


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently onlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31674 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 1):

What airline will be joining SkyTeam?

According to the OP, Singapore Airlines. Does anyone think they'll leave the Star Alliance?


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31504 times:

As far as I know France does have employment laws that always favour the employee. However, according to those figures, a revision of salaries in Air France from top to bottom would seem to be the right way forward.

It's not like there aren't thousands of guys out there who want to be pilots or boardroom members.


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31473 times:

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
,AF must go really upmarket for longhaul and totally downmarket for shorthaul in order to be economically viable.

Installing 10-across on its B777s is not the way to go in economy class. Also AF really needs to introduce proper flat-bed seating on its long-haul fleet rather than the current angled version.

KL says it will fit flat bed J seats from 2013 so why cannot AF ?

Article in Dutch language:
http://www.zakenreis.nl/message.php?msgid=5025


User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31390 times:

Do we know how AF's operating costs compare to KL's?

If AF is in as bad a situation as detailed above, what, if anything, have they done to cut costs and stop losing money?

Cheers,

MCO 2 BRS


User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 31278 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 3):
As far as I know France does have employment laws that always favour the employee. However, according to those figures, a revision of salaries in Air France from top to bottom would seem to be the right way forward.

It's not like there aren't thousands of guys out there who want to be pilots or boardroom members.

Exactly, employment laws have been hurting French Economy for ages now. One of the reasons why unions are powerfull is that companies surrender too fast in France giving employees whatever they were demanding.

More companies should do what Deawoo did in France after weeks of strikes. They just closed the whole factorie and fired everybody. That would give a message that in crisis you have to surrender pay like everybody else does.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlinejetlag73 From France, joined Sep 2011, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 31075 times:

IMHO and as a paying passenger and not an armchair CEO, this what I see wrong :
- Flying Blue is (became) a joke
- C is a rip off for the money. Most business travelers I know avoid it
- Y is ...well, on 777, you know...Most leisure travelers I know avoid it
- F is useless (not that I fly F)
- Lounges are a disgrace
- CDG is a mess (this is ADP, but falls on AF somehow)
- and strikes...man....!

If you mix this with the inner staff, unions, and corporate issues, well, sooner than later, the sh...t will hit the fan.

Most of my relations (French) have turned their back on AF, tired.

Maybe they should follow KL example.
Even AZ seems to be changing for the better !
and both are in AFKL group ! Go figure....

C'est bien triste...


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 633 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30964 times:

I can't speak to AF's financial situation as I don't know enough, but I will say that I would not feel comfortable flying AF with my family given their safety record relative to its peers over the last few years...

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11929 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30760 times:

AF's unions and management both promote the "us vs them" mentality. I would not expect AF to have a strong balance sheet. As soon as it was doing well, the unions would insist on more concessions and chances are management would concede.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30577 times:

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 2):
Does anyone think they'll leave the Star Alliance?

SQ just added a 77W in Star Alliance livery, and new, with a custom Star coloured tail, other than their own tail on their older Star Alliance birds. It's a clear statement, I would say ...


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30396 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 3):
As far as I know France does have employment laws that always favour the employee. However, according to those figures, a revision of salaries in Air France from top to bottom would seem to be the right way forward.

It's not like there aren't thousands of guys out there who want to be pilots or boardroom members.

France does in my experience harbour some very unrealistic attitudes where the workforce is concerned. The law concerning employment makes redundancy extremely expensive for the employer. The result is that many organisations offer 3 month temporary job contracts which I think can be renewed once after which the person doing the job would be considered a permanent employee. As a consequence many workers find themselves out of a job after 6 months even though ironically both they and the organisation for which they are doing a job would prefer them to continue doing the job they were doing.

Trying to reduce the salaries of 'permanent' employees would, I think, meet with fierce resistance. Air France would need to be threatened with imminent collapse before employees would make significant concessions IMO.

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
IMO,AF must go really upmarket for longhaul and totally downmarket for shorthaul in order to be economically viable.

I don't think it is possible for Air France to go downmarket for shorthaul - costs would need to be reduced significantly. I do not think that would be achievable.

[Edited 2012-01-11 06:30:54]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30383 times:

I've always had high respect for KL and I never understood why AF and KL teamed up. Kleine Lohn Maatschappij (small wages company) and the featherbedding of the French welfare state simply don't go together.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
AF's unions and management both promote the "us vs them" mentality. I would not expect AF to have a strong balance sheet

right. But as long as this is politically sanctioned what can be done. The way LH handles this in good years is, to split up the profit 3 ways - one third stays in the company for investments, one third is used as boni for all employees and the remaining third is paid out as dividend.

High wages for little work and lots of strikes is a death spiral.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16938 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 30226 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 4):
Installing 10-across on its B777s is not the way to go in economy class

Why not? One of AF's prime competitors, EK, does it. So does KL.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 4):
Also AF really needs to introduce proper flat-bed seating on its long-haul fleet rather than the current angled version.

I thought they adjusted the pitch of their J seat so that it would be lie flat now, rather than angled. I've always enjoyed AF's Y service, but their F/J offerings are simply not competitive, even with some--quelle horreur!--US carriers.

Quoting art (Reply 11):
I don't think it is possible for Air France to go downmarket for shorthaul - costs would need to be reduced significantly. I do not think that would be achievable.

I think there are some efficiencies to be ringed out of their current network--they've started with point-to-point bases in major French cities. Which of course led to strikes by flight attendants because the flying was "too efficient". 
Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
AF pilots fly an average of 620HRS P/A versus LH 700HRS P/A and both earn an average of €110K.
EZ pilots fly 800HRS and earn €100K.

How does this compare to US carriers, say their partner DL?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 30060 times:

Could someone give a financial comparison of KL and AF (actual numbers)? I always hear that KL is doing a better job but I've never seen a proper comparison.

[Edited 2012-01-11 06:57:05]


If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6680 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 29964 times:

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
The other issue is safety and www.planecrash.info gives AF a massive thumbs down.

The problem is that airline travel has become so safe that one crash throws the statistics into a cocked hat. AF has had three high profile crashes in recent history, AF447, the A340 at Toronto (but with no fatalities), and the Concorde. I would exclude the Concorde as a fluke, but the other two do give one cause for concern. But AF is still far, far safer than most airlines were even 30 years ago.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1661 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 29867 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
The problem is that airline travel has become so safe that one crash throws the statistics into a cocked hat. AF has had three high profile crashes in recent history, AF447, the A340 at Toronto (but with no fatalities), and the Concorde. I would exclude the Concorde as a fluke, but the other two do give one cause for concern. But AF is still far, far safer than most airlines were even 30 years ago.

Still, for the general public this means something like. Air France is bad, they lost 3 big aircraft in less than 10 years. They are not safe enough. I book my trip with LH / LX / IB / BA / EK.
We, as armchair airline-CEO's know slightly better though 



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6680 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 29691 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 16):

Still, for the general public this means something like. Air France is bad, they lost 3 big aircraft in less than 10 years. They are not safe enough. I book my trip with LH / LX / IB / BA / EK.

There is another factor, not mentioned yet. My sister lives in Germany and travels a lot. She usually travels by LH but last year booked AF for one flight (I believe it was cheaper and fit her schedule better). Short version, she will never do that again. I believe the flight was delayed or changed, but her big complaint is that NOBODY at AF was the least bit helpful; it was her problem and she should just deal with it. Bad service will alienate passengers faster than just about anything; good service will keep people loyal in spite of problems. Case in point, I just flew to Florida and back on WN between Christmas and New Year's; the final leg of my flight was MDW-BDL and was supposed to get into BDL at 2:20 PM. It actually got in about 9:10 PM because the plane was held up by fog in San Diego. But everyone at WN was courteous, helpful, and informative. I was told exactly what was happening, was kept updated continuously, and the flight crew was profusely apologetic about the delay once we finally boarded. This is one of the reasons I stay loyal to WN.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29586 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 3):
As far as I know France does have employment laws that always favour the employee. However, according to those figures, a revision of salaries in Air France from top to bottom would seem to be the right way forward.

It's not like there aren't thousands of guys out there who want to be pilots or boardroom members.
Quoting kl911 (Reply 6):

Exactly, employment laws have been hurting French Economy for ages now. One of the reasons why unions are powerfull is that companies surrender too fast in France giving employees whatever they were demanding.

More companies should do what Deawoo did in France after weeks of strikes. They just closed the whole factorie and fired everybody. That would give a message that in crisis you have to surrender pay like everybody else does.

Not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this topic, but....

Yes, from "top to bottom", don't only ask concessions from front-line workers while others get paid out big bonuses (I'm not too familiar with AF's situation, just making a comment about the general corporate structure).

I consider KL one of, if not the best airlines to fly TATL and I truly hope AF's situation doesn't change KL's service or prices.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29540 times:

Throw in the EU's cockamamie envirocultist green tax and it'll get only worse.

User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29488 times:

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 8):
I can't speak to AF's financial situation as I don't know enough, but I will say that I would not feel comfortable flying AF with my family given their safety record relative to its peers over the last few years...

You are joking right? Have alook at Avherald and see how often the likes of AA, Qantas and Lufthansa are mentioned there with incidents. Just because an A330 plunged in the ocean for unknown reason you avoid AF?



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29437 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
AF has had three high profile crashes in recent history

One could argue that AA has had four in a similar time span: AA965 in Cali, AA1420 in Little Rock, AA587 over Long Island, and AA331 in Kingston (no loss of life).

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
I would exclude the Concorde as a fluke, but the other two do give one cause for concern.

Again one could argue that all four AA crashes do give one cause for concern. Yet nobody here seems to dispute AA's safety, while every other week there is a post on AF's perceived lack of it. Why is that?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29368 times:

Why has the title changed to AF / KL ? Is KL in trouble as well? Dont fforget AF and KLM are two seperate brands under one parent holding.


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21092 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29298 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
AF pilots fly an average of 620HRS P/A versus LH 700HRS P/A and both earn an average of €110K.
EZ pilots fly 800HRS and earn €100K.

How does this compare to US carriers, say their partner DL?

It's quite low. 800 would be more appropriate - the limit is 1000, but having a high proportion of long-haul flights does tend to drop the average down somewhat.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29242 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):

Why not? One of AF's prime competitors, EK, does it. So does KL.

Its a bloody nightmare on long haul, end of. I would avoid any carrier promoting 10 across in Y on a 777. You might do it once, but never again.

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
CEO Juniac admires SQ and rumour has that it will join SkyTeam this year.

He admires them, does not mean SQ admires him or AF. The chances of of SQ jumping to ST are the same as BD reversing its fortunes and buying IAG group!


25 mikey72 : Ouch...i'm sure you didn't mean it but a 'fluke' is an accidental stroke of luck. Anyway..I won't start on about Concorde and that day in Paris.
26 krisyyz : I personally avoid AF not because of their "high-profile" accidents, but because of the poor customer service that my friends and I have received fro
27 planereality : Not neccessarily an indication of the health of a company's balance sheet; greats new maker though
28 SEPilot : Luck can be good or bad....
29 Post contains images EPA001 : I have some friends working at KLM (AF-KLM ) and they have told me the same. But hard numbers on that might be very hard to find. And the fact does n
30 mikey72 : Well yes but a 'fluke' generally denotes 'good' or 'advantageous' luck. Anyway, i'm being pedantic..I know what you meant.
31 mikey72 : If BA hadn't cocked up negotiations wanting it all their own way we'd have British Airways-KLM. Naughty BA !!
32 fraapproach : IMHO the number of incident reports on avherald.com doesn´t mean anything and doesn´t allow any conclusions on safety of an airline. If you count t
33 MaverickM11 : In AF's case put the spotlight on a questionable safety culture So are fares, so something has to give
34 UALWN : I would say that the same could be argued about AA, particularly with the Cali and LIttle Rock accidents.
35 Post contains images Cysafan : Well.. That 's really AF 's weakness.. Poor safety record with an accident occurring every 3-4 years. (Just like the old record of China Airlines) Th
36 Nomik : The man at the helm is not cut out to save AF. Juniac is an high-flying technocrat but no specialist at running an airline and especially one as troub
37 nyc2theworld : I just flew LH in F on a 346 and let me tell you their AVOD is laughable. The responsiveness of the touchscreen is horrible and comparatively few sel
38 Post contains links airbazar : I doubt anyone of the general public ever checks an airline's safety before buying a plane ticket, least of all check www.planecrash.info.
39 Post contains images N14AZ : For unknown reasons? Although the final report has not yet been issued I think it's almost clear what happened, or do you prefer to discuss this with
40 Post contains links and images PezySPU : I wouldn't say AF is less safe than any other major airline. I'd say most of the accidents they had in recent years were bad luck. In other words, it
41 SEPilot : Perhaps, but both AF447 and the Toronto A340 seem to have been primarily pilot error, and having two such accidents in such a short time is troubling
42 superjeff : Agreed. I've personally avoided AF Y to CDG specifically because of that. I'd rather put up with 10 hours in an AA 763 without AVOD, or a flight via
43 fraapproach : Coming back to the original subject: What is the real reason for AFs misery, especially to their peers like LH and BA? They could do pretty well consi
44 1stfl94 : I think AF need to take a look at some of the activities on the side and start seriously looking at these. Dedicate services might mean you can fly no
45 Post contains images TGV : I totally agree. And now many leisure travellers know this and, except those looking for the cheapest prices, avoid AF as much as possible (probably
46 airproxx : Talking about pilots salaries @ AF is clearly a bit od nonsense... AF Pilots fly less than others? Why?? Because AF network has been cut drastically
47 UAL747DEN : I think this statement alone disqualifies everything else you wrote because it is so completely false! Where did you come up with such a laughable st
48 Nomik : What is O&D? Many thanks!
49 varig md-11 : Correct! labour cost and lack of productivity is THE big itch: workforce 20% less productive compared to LH I don't think so...contrarily to us the g
50 bennett123 : 1stfl94 Besides AMS has a viewing terrace and CDG has ???.
51 fraapproach : O&D = Origin and Destination. It means that there is traffic that is originating or ending at an airport and not only conneting trough the airport
52 SEPilot : Origination and Destination
53 mikey72 : O&D traffic. Origin and destination traffic. The passengers on a flight who are either boarding or deplaning at a particular stop, as distinct fr
54 Post contains links mikey72 : As far as short-haul is concerned the three major European groups (Air France-KLM, IAG and Lufthansa) are living on borrowed time, operating mostly lo
55 PezySPU : I don't think they have less LCC competition than BA. AF is the one that started flying point-to-point routes from smaller French cities because of t
56 1stfl94 : You could argue that they are very similar, high VFR traffic, high tourism traffic and still important government and business links. BA tried the hi
57 anstar : And VS fly similar routes to the BA Caribbean destinations but with a 451 seat 747!!! And from all accounts BA are making more $$ from LH at LGW than
58 RDH3E : UA Pilots are guaranteed 65/mo so 780 is the MIN. It's not unknown. Is this a fact? Because they haven't reduced the pilot workforce to match the red
59 fraapproach : re France being the worlds top tourist destination: I have heard so several times, so often that it stuck to my mind and I tend to believe it. Be it n
60 Kaiarahi : Or connecting to another destination.
61 airtechy : After the business class agent insisted that I try speaking to her in French before she would check me in at CDG, I said never again on AF. And she re
62 Post contains images Ferminios : Can any of the French posters on here give some insight in regards to the reliability of 'Capital'? Sorry, but what I'm reading here seem a prime exam
63 awthompson : I know that there was a piece of sharp debris on the runway deposited by an earlier flight and that this was bad luck for Air France however I am not
64 Post contains links Nomik : Loses €25M P/A just on Corsican ops even with all the €65M in grants and subsidies from regional government! Madness! I think AF have a monopoly f
65 faro : 100% agreed. Unless a company is facing an imminent threat of bankruptcy or considering voluntary liquidation, it is nowhere near "serious financial
66 TYCOON : Every time there is one of these negative AF bashing threads, I always ask myself if members of this forum fly the same AF that I do... I am a native
67 idlewildchild : So sad and so true. Anyone whose connected through CDG at least 3 times will probably have 2 nightmare stories of buses and escalators and confusion.
68 YULWinterSkies : AF staff might have some sort of 'protected job' status (at least unofficially) and this may be hurting the company to some extent, but this is also
69 tff : This is not true. AF has actually expanded over the past two years.
70 Post contains links Nomik : If you understand French: http://toutsurlachine.blogspot.com/2...eut-on-encore-avoir-confiance.html Documentaries on AF safety; http://documentaires.
71 Post contains images ebbuk : In AF's defence, their A380 is magnifique. I flew to the US last year and was only going across on the 380. It was a choice between AF and LH. LH was
72 AngMoh : Don't worry: AF will exceed your expectations. Their AVOD is a lot worse than LH. When I flew them SIN-CDG on J, they had only AVOD in J, not in Y (p
73 shamrock604 : I am sorry but claiming that there is only one english language movie in J on AF is simply not true, and all 777 are fitted with AVOD in Y, as are the
74 Post contains links Pihero : Poor journalism as it doesn't go onto the structure of the airline and the reasons for mediocre results, compounded with obvious anti French bias... A
75 jetlag73 : Well, Capital is indeed a very basic and popular magazine in France, and they like to paint it all in white or black. Grey doesn't exist. So in a way
76 MaverickM11 : What downturn? It grew 5+% in 2011 and will likely do so again in 2012 Capacity is pretty much back to normal, with the exception of the HND sideshow
77 Post contains images airproxx : Stupid security agents, and ridiculous security policy....................................? I meant AF pilots are NOT responsible of AF strategy... T
78 Viscount724 : I don't understand that comment. LH's first purchase of an 11% minority stake in LX didn't happen until 2005, several years after Swiss was created o
79 CuriousFlyer : As for AF's 3 crashes... AA has had 3 too, 2 on 9/11 and another a few weeks later, UACO has had 2 crashes on 9/11 then that Colgan crash... Of course
80 AngMoh : I write what I experienced - services was horrible and I felt insulted. And for me AVOD is "on demand". What Y serviced in that flight was not "on de
81 Pihero : Typical post : repeat a mantra and something is bound to stick in people's memory. Of course, not a hint of a source or a reference. I say again : Whe
82 Pihero : In all intents ans purposes, LH bought Crossair. Just a change names on a piece of paper.
83 delimit : Ah another AF bash-fest. The continued AF is unsafe meme on this forum is pretty embarrassing. If the thought of flying Air France makes you uncomfort
84 Mortyman : Yes it is. France is the country with the most tourist pr. year and has been so for many years.
85 Post contains links JimJupiter : Just ask Wikipedia (I know...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_T...als_by_country_of_destination_2010
86 jetlag73 : Well, no AF bashing. What for ? I'm French, and honestly, I wish I could be satisfied. Also, not talking about safety records, as this is a different
87 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Even DL/UA/US have better J products by comparison.
88 TYCOON : MaverickM11, I have flown extensively on DL (302 flights), UA (19) and US (20), many of which were transatlantic and in business class, and there is n
89 mikey72 : And Christian Lacroix uniforms at 600 euro's a pop... No wonder they're broke.
90 jetlag73 : Tycoon, Your flying experience speaks for itself, and I think you are right (to a certain extent) except for J seat, getting better than AF for many U
91 Nomik : Is AF hindered by the 35HR working week known as RTT (Reduced Working Hours)? Are AF pilots subject to this or just the rest of cabin crew and ground
92 ebbuk : @mikey72 reply 89 Not a bad way to go bust. Very stylish Though talk of AF/KL's demise is way out of line.
93 mikey72 : Oh I agree...if only we were back in those days.... Alitalia used to wear Armani.........
94 UALWN : What a load of rubbish. One can argue that AA has, since the Cali accident, a worse record than AF, yet nobody seems to notice here:
95 varig md-11 : Sorry, but your mistake was to address to Y counter while expecting J service (though J class counter should have been open I agree) Plus, AF is not
96 mikey72 : Excuse me...i'm 6'2 with a 34inch waist (as i was when BA crew) and many of the girls were stunners...don't make sweeping statements. Those ex BCAL '
97 par13del : If a point of pride, other airlines have done to to reduce cost, so if AF has not then it is a higher cost component that they have which should be a
98 Pihero : Please do, to enlighten us Are you reading the posts on this thread or are you just pursuing your personal agenda against Air france, ADP, France in
99 Post contains images mozart : There is that plus don't forget that routes to the French overseas departments are EAS routes, i.e. partly subsidised. Yes. But bear in mind: only be
100 Post contains images PM : "Unknown"? Rather well known by now, I'd have said.
101 mikey72 : I've never made any secret of the fact that I'm ex BA crew. I'd hardly be in a position to say some of the things I do If I were not. In 1981, the ai
102 Post contains links Nomik : Precisely:"Stop throwing good money after bad!" was Thatcher's leitmotif! France's equivalent of Lord King was Christian Blanc who tried to shape up
103 rheinwaldner : LX carried this year more pax than SR ever did. They are larger now than Swissair was. So something works now that did not work when it was Swissair.
104 Post contains links Nomik : Hot off the press:AF CEO to make the most savegest of cuts this afternoon: http://videos.tf1.fr/infos/2012/fort...e-pour-air-france-klm-6933365.html
105 qualitydr : Wikipedia (with the usual cautions) cites France as No. 1 in international tourist arrivals and No. 3 in receipts. Since EU travelers count as intern
106 kiwiandrew : off topic, I know, but I feel that you have got that the wrong way around... it was BA who screwed up the relationship by being too demanding and dro
107 lexer : As it happens, I just came back from a TATL trip, KL one leg, AF the return, both in C. And with the experience very fresh, you may imagine my interes
108 Pihero : Prove it ... that research could change your view on things and your bias. ... along with some historical knowledge (that's called "culture" in some
109 Pihero : This short excerpt shows the level of your argumentation. Smells of bull ; looks like it... must be it. As I'm not in a willy-waving competition with
110 peanuts : This is kind of an interesting read, this thread. I appreciate the more serious input from both sides. We can write books about AF/KL and talk for day
111 Pihero : That theme is called, contrarily to what you're saying : "PREJUDICE against anything French, NO MATTER WHAT !" I've always given as much, if not more
112 peanuts : But that's just it. People in general love things french, hence why it's the no.#1 tourist destination. I love France as well, in many different face
113 lexer : OMG, you're really pushing it now. Earlier you put responsibility for AF's problems almost entirely outside the company, but now it's a full blown si
114 TYCOON : On a purely personal level, that "ATTITUDE" works for me... Whenever I board an AF flight whether it is in South America, the US, Asia flying back to
115 Post contains links mikey72 : July 1994 - from link below. BRITAIN was last night heading for a fresh row over state subsidies after the European Commission caved in to demands fo
116 Post contains images Pihero : Thanks, You're saying nice things but unfortunately they don't apply in this forum. Just look at the title that launched the feeding frenzy :"Serious
117 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Have you read your posts? They have a similar repetitious mantra. All EU carriers are going through the same insane level of competition that US carr
118 lexer : Oh my, 'apologists'... Your argument is so clearly ideological. KLM learned a lot from Northwest when their cooperation started, for example on daily
119 Post contains links Pihero : If you're not biased in your facts, I'd say you are quite a lot of it when providing references. A very quick research on the web : Airline Subsidies
120 Post contains links mikey72 : These are interesting too :- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...ctory-over-air-france-1167610.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-aid-is-
121 mikey72 : Conditions were attached to the capital injection but failed to give the tough signals on state aid that BA wanted. Two commissioners, Sir Leon Britt
122 Pihero : when are you going out of the EU ? I wonder. Such nice people really have nothing to do with those cheats from France... But please remember maggie s
123 shamrock604 : I repeat - every one of the 777, 330, 340 and 380 fleet is equipped with AVOD (Which obviously stands for Audio Video On Demand) at every seat in eve
124 anstar : And what has that got to do with this discussion? Passengers don't equal profit. At least the LCC's can charge for additional things like onboard foo
125 Pihero : Nil passenger either. What else ?
126 varig md-11 : You would be ashamed and so would I... Pierre, come on be serious: I am working for the republique and have been doing so for 15 years. I was for a l
127 Post contains images mikey72 : Oh if only. Got three letters for you mon ami.. A A A I love France, it's beautiful. But you and that 'raving lunatic' you call a President are givin
128 shamrock604 : I would not count your chickens... once the Markets are done picking the Eurozone apart, they'll be sniffing around other deficit bunnies like the UK
129 mikey72 : That's where Iran comes in....what do you think that's all about ! That will all kick off big time at a very convenient moment. International politic
130 Pihero : Could be news to you but these airplanes have now lower operating costs than a 777 : they are fully amortiized (?) Rubbish ; on hot and high airports
131 mikey72 : Just one more thing. I have serious doubts about AF's past fleet management if the best and most needed use they have for the A380 are JFK, IAD and DX
132 Pihero : I've never been in a better company.
133 Pihero : Probably fewer than one british pound can buy, I guess.
134 Post contains images shamrock604 : Haha! Well, yes, that is true. We should really learn the lessons there. I mean, we could always pick a fight even with ourselves just to distract th
135 Post contains images MaverickM11 : One pound, no debt, no armies of angry employees, no dysfunctional network. Just one pound . If you keep repeating it, it doesn't cease to be a fraud
136 HNL-Jack : Took AF between LAX and CDG in Y despite their reputation and found the service from LAX was just as I feared, cabin looked like it really needed an o
137 HNL-Jack : Took AF between LAX and CDG in Y despite their reputation and found the service from LAX was just as I feared, cabin looked like it really needed an o
138 jetlag73 : Folks, wake up, AF is doing all the right way, just the world doesn't understand. Reminds me of the guy driving the wrong side on the highway, wonderi
139 Pihero : You very obviously have no idea of what we're talking about : to sell public property amounts under some skies to gross misappropriation. As for the
140 Pihero : Had you provided anything else but the usual AirFrance-bashing drivel one finds on this forum, we might have gone a lot further somewhere.[Edited 201
141 anstar : I was speaking to a Virgin FO and he mentioned that the 330 was burning about a tonne less fuel per sector than the 340 would on a similar route leng
142 varig md-11 : Ah oui? and the cost of keeping pilots and FA type ratings for such a ridiculous subfleet? Pierre, pleeease: for our West Indies the 747 was the work
143 shamrock604 : While that may be true, a 4 engine airliners still offers advantages on certain routes (Hot and High airfields, routes with long overwater stretches
144 AirbusA6 : Other than the horrible 10Y seating, recent flight to HAV was reasonable, enough choice on the AVOD, reasonable food (lack of main course choice thoug
145 Post contains links petertenthije : About one hour ago there was a press conference at KLM HQ, it started minutes after the stock markets closed. Following highlights: * Most cuts will f
146 Post contains images MaverickM11 : AF bashing again! MEX is consistently 777 as well, both versions It's like you're a recording on loop Oh brother. We get it. Any criticism whatsoever
147 Post contains images mikey72 : Hey Pihero...this is what the British and French can do......
148 Pihero : No you don't. In spite of all my appeals for an informed discussion, i.e wjth an agreed basis of discussion, which was only the official AF/KL financ
149 Post contains links mozart : Pihero Let's move away from the "prejudice" line of argument for a moment. It is a bit sad you use that all the time because it discredits all the oth
150 Post contains images Pihero : What you call ridiculous subfleet is crewed by 105 captains and some 200 first officers... 305 pilots needing an average of 16 hours of simulator ( s
151 panamair : Really? Because right now, most of the airlines across the pond are the ones reporting large profits despite high fuel prices and economic uncertaint
152 Post contains links petertenthije : Here's the press statement by Air France. There is a link at the KLM website to what I assume to be the same release, but the link is dead. http://cor
153 Pihero : like AA in C11 or DL....etc...just out of C11 As for United... ask the pilots where their pension has gone to. Real meaningful examples, yes indeed !
154 Pihero : Yes, when they work together.
155 MaverickM11 : Show me one instance where I've said anything anti-French. All you've dished so far is "anti French, French bias, French bashing, anti French, French
156 Pihero : MOzart, Thank you for your post. Just what I wanted. I will first have a look at your sources, then I'll address your arguments. I'm on sim tomorrow w
157 Post contains images MaverickM11 : They didn't have ability to turn to the government for support, like AF . It's not perfect, but neither is state ownership. How much did AF pay for C
158 Pihero : which shows that you didn't check the link as the full year-sofar was there on that report. Sometimes one shoudn't trust the writings of someone as r
159 Post contains images mikey72 : We are always working together. It just doesn't appear so at times....besides..the British and French ''LOVE'' to hate each other. Any other way just
160 Post contains links and images MaverickM11 : Yeah you got me! http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...n-shrinks-fleet-freezes-wages.html "Air France-KLM’s earnings before interest and tax dropp
161 Pihero : You're a better man than I am. No bad feelings from my part any longer. And thanks for the lesson. Cheers.
162 Post contains images Pihero : See ! You can do it ! after 159 posts, which means one shoudn't despair. One should always believe in fellow human's inherent goodness... That's the
163 panamair : Hence I said, "most" of the airlines.... Just? Delta exited Ch.11 spring 2007 - that's almost five years ago now....
164 UALWN : What makes you think that AF has that ability? It doesn't. On the other hand, the US airlines did have that ability after 9/11. And the US car indust
165 panamair : Let's be real. If AF were really on death's doorstep tomorrow, the French government WILL find loopholes in EU subsidy laws to save it. Count on it.
166 Kaiarahi : Just like the Swiss government stepped in to save SR and the Belgian government stepped in to save SN - right? What is your speculative "certainty" b
167 MaverickM11 : They had that ability well into the 90s, two decades after the US airline industry was thrown into full deregulation. All of which were paid back in
168 tripple7 : I wonder what the impact of the reorganisation will be on Cityjet, Transavia, and Martinair. Does anyone ave more information on this?
169 panamair : In the case of Swissair, the Swiss government did keep Swissair alive from October 2001 until the "replacement national carrier" Swiss International
170 AirGabon : Well said! You are 100% correct. The same would happen to AF which IS NOT A PUBLIC COMPANY. Too many people here think that AF is still a State owned
171 Post contains links and images mozart : Sure. My sources are the following: - for Air France profitability numbers and the statement about their outlook: AF statement of November 9, on thei
172 Nomik : They most certainly do. The French Government sunk IM and IJ so as to make AF the only interdomestic carrier. U2 were only allowed slots after they s
173 panamair : So, yes, the government had to step in to intervene to keep Swissair flying. CS and UBS by themselves would never have kept SR flying out of the good
174 Pihero : Wher did you see any panic : the fourth qurter results were forecasted in September ( which was the cause of the stock markets, which generally show
175 MaverickM11 : I don't believe that for a second--AF is fundamentally much stronger than SR was. Then it's gonna be a long decade for you as all EU carriers restruc
176 Pihero : the epitome of bullshit on France government conspiracy... An what does IM, air barbados to do with everything ? Same opinion what does Continental M
177 Viscount724 : Not entirely. TP is still 100% state-owned as is Czech Airlines. Malev was re-nationalized in 2010 and is now 95% state-owned. Finnair is majority-st
178 petertenthije : Nomik means Credit Suisse.
179 Post contains links airproxx : Check this link out (sorry, only in French, but a good translation tool like google should help!) This only concerns AF, but deserves some attention;
180 MD-90 : So if AF isn't doing as well financially as KLM, why did they just announce that AF wages will be frozen while KLM wages will be reduced, not merely f
181 jetlag73 : Pierre, I just gave my views as a paying passenger. If you read my posts, I said Y is good (apart from 10 across 777s). Where's the bashing here ? I
182 MaverickM11 : I'm not sure I agree with the condemnation of the hub structure--that's one of AF's strengths and the reason it is able to drive such a revenue premi
183 shamrock604 : I dont think the author is attacking the hub structure per se - merely suggesting that greater efficiencies need to be sought in scheduling and also
184 Post contains images mikey72 : That could have happened to any of us. I'm sure there wasn't an airline in the world that didn't have a SOCK tied around the flight-deck door handle
185 Post contains links draigonair : Doesn't say anywhere that KLM wages will be reduced. There is still room for a slight wage increase but in return the workers are asked to work harde
186 76er : Something went wrong with the translation on the wages subject. From what I've read in the dutch media, AF wages will be 'frozen', while at KL one spe
187 Nomik : From what I have read from posters:The most salient point of all is indeed that AF must force ADP entirely renovate CDG and ORY into showcase European
188 UALWN : But, according to you, regulation is still a factor in the curent AA's woes.... The fact is that since 1997 (14 years ago!) deregulation has hit the
189 Post contains links Nomik : U2 slots in exchange for Airbus deal: EasyJet Awarded 7,300 Paris Slots (by Britair Mar 31 2003 in Civil Aviation)
190 Amsterdam : So they plan to stop their investments? Hahaha Investing is the best thing they can do in a time like this, and stopping that doesn't reduce their str
191 shamrock604 : They plan to curtail investments (not stop them) EXCEPT in areas related to safety and customer service.
192 Post contains links Nomik : French Minister hints that AF will be ditched if need be: http://videos.tf1.fr/infos/2012/les-...ortelles-rappelle-nkm-6934254.html
193 UALWN : Very interesting. Now an a.net thread is a proof? I see in it an article in the Seattle Times (surprise, surprise), and then statements like: "Aeris
194 MaverickM11 : I must be the one person on the planet that likes CDG, but I understand what the article is getting at. They could bring back the STR flight, for ins
195 mozart : I just watched that video (teased by what you wrote) but absolutely *nowhere* can I hear even the slightest hint of her saying that AF will be ditche
196 varig md-11 : Thanks for biting to the hook: don't you think if you get rid of the 747 and standardize to 777 all these costs can be lowered? you bleed money.... A
197 shamrock604 : I like 2E and 2F, and S3 is great. There are some positive changes, and hopefully S4 addresses some more issues.
198 Post contains links Nomik : A strong opinion on what AF misses in its restructuring plan: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...oids-the-dead-obvious-in-new-plan/
199 Pihero : You're essentially correct. Unfortunately, the premises are completely wrong : our salaries are based on flying hours, not on duty times. That single
200 SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further contributions as it has been hijacked into a tit-for-tat debate which does not contribute constructively toward
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