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Delta JFK T4 Extension As A T3 Replacement  
User currently offlineboswashsprstar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 201 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Ever since Delta announced its JFK renovation plans, I have been wondering--how are 9 new gates at Terminal 4 going to amount to a replacement for T3? There are at least a dozen gates at T3, so won't Delta end up short gates after T3 is torn down? Delta has cut back somewhat on its JFK presence in recent years, but I remember pre-recession buses and Dulles-style mobile lounges were not uncommon ways to board and disembark mainline planes at JFK, and now they're going to even fewer gates?

For that matter, how will there be enough space at T4--what about the other carriers that use the B-wing gates at T4 now? Are they being kicked out, or will Delta just be perennially short afternoon takeoff slots at T4, when both they and many of the foreign T4 carriers all want to depart to Europe?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineplanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5796 times:

This is an interesting point. Initially when the expansion of T-4 came about it was not only extending the B-wing but also the A-wing (the one EK,SQ along with others), there were models that came out with this large expansion but DL and Port Authority quickly removed this and went to an expansion of the B wing plan. Now the question is whether they are going to expand the A wing, as it seems now looks like no, but I could be mistaken.

Another point that I believe DL said was they can utilize the gates better even though its less total gates is because they have a large hardstand in the area where T-3 is now, so they can utilize moving of the planes between gates and hardstand more efficiently.

Also another factor is Jetblue and their expansion of T5i, will some carriers move over there when that is complete, also when is that scheduled for is something up in the air.


User currently offlineboswashsprstar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5513 times:

It seems unlikely JetBlue will want to share T5 unless they have to, not to mention that there's currently no way to serve non-pre-cleared international flights at T5 (though with JetBlue's fairly large number of short-haul international destinations, perhaps that will change as T5 grows).

T1 also seems generally underutilized during much of the day, but doesn't solve the problem of having enough gates for peak afternoon departures, since I think T1 is probably essentially full at that time. Some T4 carriers could conceivably move to T8 with AA--EY comes to mind, although their flight is not currently at a peak time.

If T8 is expanded and BA moves in, as has been raised as a possibility lately, then lots of room opens up in T7, but that's a distant prospect for now.


User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2900 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 2):
It seems unlikely JetBlue will want to share T5 unless they have to, not to mention that there's currently no way to serve non-pre-cleared international flights at T5 (though with JetBlue's fairly large number of short-haul international destinations, perhaps that will change as T5 grows).

There have been quite a few threads on this subject. That project is called T5i, which will have the customs capabilities to clear the inbound international flights, thus allowing B6 to vacate T4. This is why T6 is now torn down...making room for T5i.  



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineplanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 3):
There have been quite a few threads on this subject. That project is called T5i, which will have the customs capabilities to clear the inbound international flights, thus allowing B6 to vacate T4. This is why T6 is now torn down...making room for T5i.

What is the progress of that and when that will be complete seems to be up in the air.


User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2900 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting planetime (Reply 4):
What is the progress of that

T6 is gone, other than that I have not been to that side of the airfield for over a month so I am not sure what other progress has been made.

Quoting planetime (Reply 4):
when that will be complete seems to be up in the air

I don't believe a final layout has been selected and whatnot. At this point, I am sure our Corporate Real Estate department is very tied up with the Long Island City Headquarters Move right now so they'll probably shifting most of their focus on that and will get back onto the T5i plans once everyone has moved in and is good to go at L.I.C.

That's just IMHO though, there are probably plenty of people still working on T5i even with the L.I.C. move, but T5i design has to go through many hurdles including the PANYNJ and I'm sure Customs has to give their input too.

~H81



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting boswashsprstar (Thread starter):

Its supposedly part of a larger phase 2 expansion. One that will add a "finger" for a few mainline gates and an RJ concourse to get ride of the cluster that is the current DCI horse shoe operation.

As for the gates, someone said it. They will be able to hardstand right next to 4. A/c will be cleaned and catered on the stands and towed to the gates. This is already done in ATL at Delta North and the south end by south caro and the old NW hanger. Also, the 9 gates is just the expansion, they will have access to current gates too..



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineplanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):

None of these addresses the fact what will happen to the displaced airlines from T4. Is the PANYNJ doing anything to accommodate the airlines in that wing to new areas? Any update or plans with the expansion of the other wing concourse A I think its called.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting planetime (Reply 7):

Something is obviously in place; they simply aren't going to to stop flying to JFK. But that's really not of any concern to DL's T4 expansion or what I follow   that's the Port's problem. Maybe someone else knows..I'm a bit curious.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineboswashsprstar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
As for the gates, someone said it. They will be able to hardstand right next to 4. A/c will be cleaned and catered on the stands and towed to the gates. This is already done in ATL at Delta North and the south end by south caro and the old NW hanger. Also, the 9 gates is just the expansion, they will have access to current gates too..

Delta already uses quite a few of the current T4B gates, though. If they use more T4B gates than they do now, then the question is, where do the other T4 airlines go? If they don't use any more of the current gates, then they're short gates vs. T3.

It is possible that the improved efficiency of that part of the airport will make up for it, but that seems unlikely to me. Delta already uses (or, until T4B construction started up, used) a lot of remote stands out in front of T4, so it's not clear that they'll have a huge increase in remote stand capacity once T3 is demolished.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 9):

There will be a general reshuffle in the way they do business in JFK and handle gate assignments. There are many a/c on T3 that sit for hours after their arrival to turn an international flight or whatever its doing. They don't necessarily need a one for one gate swap between terminals to make things work.

Also, T3 will not be completely demolished until 2014. What that means idk. They may still have access to some gates in the interim until the full parking plan is implemented.

I remember a member that likes to bring up why US and DL went with the current plan for the LGA gate/terminal shuffle. All I can say is they have the flight schedules and they know what they will need.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7616 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

Quoting boswashsprstar (Thread starter):
Delta has cut back somewhat on its JFK presence in recent years,

Has it? I was under the impression DL was beefing up JFK but I may be wrong.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
Its supposedly part of a larger phase 2 expansion. One that will add a "finger" for a few mainline gates and an RJ concourse to get ride of the cluster that is the current DCI horse shoe operation.

Should we expect some sort of expansion or at least renovation of T2 once T4 is expanded and T3 is demolished too?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently onlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3599 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

They haven't cut back. They would lose slots if they did

User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4445 times:

A bunch of us on here have commented about this for a while. It is entirely unclear what the plan is, and I don't think an airline like El Al--that has operated out of T4 for decades--should be inconvenienced because Delta dropped the ball on building adequate terminal facilities at JFK.

Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 2):
T1 also seems generally underutilized during much of the day,

This is complete nonsense and wrong. T1 is packed throughout most of the day. If a new airline was starting service at JFK, the only open times to use a gate at T1 are: very early in the morning (6AM-Noon), or very late at night (9PM or later). Perhaps you forget that a lot of the T1 airlines such as Korean Air and Turkish now have multiple daily departures. Eva Air started at JFK a few months ago and that is an evening flight that arrives at 9PM; around the time Eva's 77W lands there, there are only about two gates available at T1.


User currently offlinevr777727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

If you count the amount of gates that are currently in use at T3, which is 16 and the fact that Delta currently uses @T4B, gates 20/20A, 22, 24 and sometimes 30, Delta will only lose 2 gates. The problem will really come into play if they go through with plan for all SkyTeam members to use Delta's gates at T4.


VR777727
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8456 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3359 times:
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Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 9):
Delta already uses quite a few of the current T4B gates, though. If they use more T4B gates than they do now, then the question is, where do the other T4 airlines go? If they don't use any more of the current gates, then they're short gates vs. T3.

There is going to be a great JFK shuffle. The terminal 4 airlines which Delta is putting the screws to in T4 will have to go someplace. Termianl's 3 sight will not stay empty for long something will get built there by 2020. JFK has many real estate options yet to play out with the terminal 6 sight, BA's lease at T7 ending at 2015 and the "expansion" of AA T8.


User currently onlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3599 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

The first thing that will play out is likely to be T5i with JetBlue.

A small arrivals facility will likely get built to get B6 out of T4. It can likely be built quickly and cheaply onto the Walmart-warehouse exterior of terminal 5. It will be modern and spacious and get the job done for B6. Also, it will clear a huge amount of people out of T4. This will likely be announced sometime this year or next.

Little known fact...with its small aircraft (320s and 190s) and frequent use of hardstands, JetBlue clears more people through T4 customs than any other airline.

After T5i, I see T8 getting a BA extension and T7 being converted into a T4 reliever. Likely 2015 timeframe.

Another extension to T4 (concurrent with axing T2) is well down the line IMO. Likely 2020 timeframe.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):

Not really. There are plenty of slots to be had at JFK, however, the amount of a/c movement allowed is usually maxed out during the most desirable times (early in the morning during the Caribbean push plus all the west coast and hub flight) and in the afternoon when all the Europe stuff in coming in and in the evening whe ALL the other flights are arriving and TATL is pushing at the same time. Generally 2-3 hour waves for each big bank.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):

Well that is just oh so sad...I thought this was a dog eat dog business. No one seems to care when the same thing happens in other airports overseas. And before you start blaming DL for these poor airlines having to move, blame the Schipol Group which is who they actually pay.

Of course folks will argue is some grand scheme well because, they own and operate AMS who's largest tenant is KLM who by the way is one of DL's closest parners and a long time member of SkyTeam.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineplanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):

From what DL planned out seems like there is no plans for T2 other than a big connector to T4. T2 is not in good shape also, quite old and showing its age.


User currently offlineboswashsprstar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3148 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
A small arrivals facility will likely get built to get B6 out of T4. It can likely be built quickly and cheaply onto the Walmart-warehouse exterior of terminal 5. It will be modern and spacious and get the job done for B6. Also, it will clear a huge amount of people out of T4. This will likely be announced sometime this year or next.

Little known fact...with its small aircraft (320s and 190s) and frequent use of hardstands, JetBlue clears more people through T4 customs than any other airline.

Getting B6 out of T4 customs will help reduce the lines, but does it free up any gates at T4? I assumed B6 just bused arriving pax to T4 customs--all departures take place in T5, so they definitely don't load up any planes at T4. But I've never experienced B6 international arrivals so I don't know.


User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2900 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 19):
Getting B6 out of T4 customs will help reduce the lines, but does it free up any gates at T4? I assumed B6 just bused arriving pax to T4 customs--all departures take place in T5, so they definitely don't load up any planes at T4. But I've never experienced B6 international arrivals so I don't know.

There are times when an arrival comes to T4 where there is no gate available and the the plane goes to a hard stand at T4 and the pax are bussed to the terminal. However, there are plenty of B6 flights that go to gates at T4, so yes, it will free up gates...and hard stands at T4.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Little known fact...with its small aircraft (320s and 190s) and frequent use of hardstands, JetBlue clears more people through T4 customs than any other airline.

I can always count on you to have some little tidbit I didn't know...even if it is about my own airline! LOL! THANKS!   

~H81



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
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