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WN To Start ICT In 2013  
User currently offlineTSRA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 213 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9271 times:

Looks like WN wanted to make sure the subsidies would remain before they committed. The article below mentions WN is doing a market study to see which routes they will enter. My guess would be DAL, DEN, MDW, and LAS. What are your thoughts?

http://www.kansas.com/2012/01/13/217...an-transitioning-to-southwest.html

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25127 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9071 times:
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Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

I think that $7 million is a nice subsidy for it:

http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/...out-of/ZfasuDhO8kuE5jRaHD6s2g.cspx

"Southwest Airlines has requested that the Affordable Airfares Program continue -- providing subsidies to keep Southwest in Wichita. Those subsidies include $5 million from the state and $1 million each from Sedgwick County and Wichita. The delegation of local leaders said that Southwest Airlines made it clear that the subsidies are a critical component for them to be in this market."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8920 times:

Bingo. WN loves a good subsidy, and I can't blame them.. plus they're really just re-branding the existing AirTran operation.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8919 times:

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):

Excellent guesses. I think 'maybe' one to LAX and one or two to PHX, may be one TPA & MCO, ATL, SAN, OAK... As a mid country stop?


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6751 posts, RR: 32
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8841 times:

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
My guess would be DAL, DEN, MDW, and LAS. What are your thoughts?

PHX, HOU and STL would be other possibilities, with HOU & STL being somewhat less likely. I could see the ATL service ultimately transitioning to STL as the latter is somewhat better-situated for access to the network.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

The ones I think will be applicable for WN at ICT:
DAL...2-3x daily
MCI...2-3x daily (with continuing service to MDW/BWI)
LAS...1x daily
ATL...2-3x daily (to keep the FL flights)
PHX...1-2x daily

Minimum of 8 flights...maximum of 12 flights...which is about the right size for ICT's market.


User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

If we'll play the guessing game I'll say...

STL-2
MDW-2
DAL-2
HOU-2
MCO-1
ATL-2
LAS-1

12 Flights to start with.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16859 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
My guess would be DAL, DEN, MDW, and LAS. What are your thoughts?

ATL, MDW, DAL, HOU, LAS, PHX, MCO.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8541 times:

Great, a city that couldn't truly support 3 FL flights to ATL is getting WN. WN is officially out of new markets. I wonder if WN will try to get the subsidy raised to sustain the 8 flights vs the 3 they were paying for?

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8485 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 8):



Great, a city that couldn't truly support 3 FL flights to ATL is getting WN. WN is officially out of new markets. I wonder if WN will try to get the subsidy raised to sustain the 8 flights vs the 3 they were paying for?

Good airline, good airport, good population base, wrong destination   I think WN has the right idea here, they can probably make it work if they go to the right places  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8415 times:

WN is hardly "out markets." Like anyone else, they'll fly where they can make money. If Wichita and Sedgwick County want to offer the subsidy, and it turns out that WN can run profitable flights with it, good for all of them. I have yet to see either the legacy carrier or LCC that will turn down a subsidized route. AA and RDU-London, anyone?

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
think that $7 million is a nice subsidy for it:

http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/...out-of/ZfasuDhO8kuE5jRaHD6s2g.cspx

"Southwest Airlines has requested that the Affordable Airfares Program continue -- providing subsidies to keep Southwest in Wichita. Those subsidies include $5 million from the state and $1 million each from Sedgwick County and Wichita. The delegation of local leaders said that Southwest Airlines made it clear that the subsidies are a critical component for them to be in this market."

mariner

Wonder how long they'll be needed for, though...I could see it become self-sustaining once the routes have been established for a year or two. WN has, in the past, avoided subsidized service, although they took the money for that last airport in Florida that they started before the FL merger.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25127 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8351 times:
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Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11):
Wonder how long they'll be needed for, though...I could see it become self-sustaining once the routes have been established for a year or two. WN has, in the past, avoided subsidized service, although they took the money for that last airport in Florida that they started before the FL merger.

Airtran has been taking the subsidy as long as it has been at ICT. If that subsidy is a requirement for Southwest, it suggests the Airtran service has never become self-sustaining.

mariner.



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8323 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
Airtran has been taking the subsidy as long as it has been at ICT. If that subsidy is a requirement for Southwest, it suggests the Airtran service has never become self-sustaining.

mariner.

See my previous post (the one before my reply to you). ATL is hardly a viable destination from ICT, and I don't think AirTran offered connections to other carriers at ATL  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8300 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 6):
If we'll play the guessing game I'll say...

STL-2
MDW-2
DAL-2
HOU-2
MCO-1
ATL-2
LAS-1

12 Flights to start with.

Alex

No way...it won't be that many flights.
2x DAL
2x DEN
2x MDW
1x LAS
...any maybe ATL will keep it's service but I doubt it. It's much cheaper to fly the passengers a much short route and then connect them to ATL.
I'd say 7x daily flights...maybe 8.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25127 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8286 times:
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Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
ATL is hardly a viable destination from ICT, and I don't think AirTran offered connections to other carriers at ATL

Delta thinks ATL is a viable destination from ICT and I'm not sure why Airtran would offer connections to other carriers, from anywhere, really. Doesn't Airtran offer its own connections at ATL?

mariner.



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8259 times:

Good news for Wichita; they certainly needed it after Boeing decided to close up shop.

User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8238 times:

Eh.. I think its going to look more like:

DEN - 1
PHX or ABQ - 1
DAL - 3
MDW - 2
ATL - 2

I don't see an HOU spoke and I am not sure St. Louis will fit into their model - not enough O/D... Chicago though, could work and provide connections to the upper East coast.

PHX/ABQ provides a spoke to the western states

DAL opens up texas/louisiana/alabama

ATL -status quo

DEN - and continuing to SEA ^_^



xx
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13011 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8205 times:
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I've thought for a while that ICT could support WN (even without subsidies). This will be a boost for the local economy.

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 2):
plus they're really just re-branding the existing AirTran operation.

Not when the flight numbers need to increase to support a WN station. Instead of a FL 'outsourced ground handling,' it will be done with WN 20 minute turns.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 8):
Great, a city that couldn't truly support 3 FL flights to ATL is getting WN.

ATL will probably loose one flight to be 'right sized.'

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11):
I could see it become self-sustaining once the routes have been established for a year or two.

  

Quoting joeljack (Reply 14):
No way...it won't be that many flights.

What is the minimum number of flights/day to support a WN station? I thought it was ten (10)? (Note: I'm asking.)

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 6):
STL-2
MDW-2
DAL-2
HOU-2
MCO-1
ATL-2
LAS-1

12 Flights to start with.

Make that ten flights and I would agree with you. I suspect that STL would be the two cut.  

Your city selections only have LAS for a Westward destination. With the build up of the DEN hub, I could see one less MDW flight and a flight to DEN.

The issue for WN at ICT will be F9. The competition will limit fares to the West.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 8):
Great, a city that couldn't truly support 3 FL flights to ATL is getting WN. WN is officially out of new markets. I wonder if WN will try to get the subsidy raised to sustain the 8 flights vs the 3 they were paying for?

Amen to that.

According to Transtats, the FL loads are garbage:
2010 average: 57.14%
2011 average: 63.26%

Source: http://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx

It's too bad to see cities that actually supported their FL service go under, while subsidy money keeps this dog afloat.

I wonder what this will mean for G4 at ICT?


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8155 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
Make that ten flights and I would agree with you. I suspect that STL would be the two cut

   I don't see how STL would fit into Southwest's plans at ICT at all. There's bigger markets for them to serve.

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 19):
It's too bad to see cities that actually supported their FL service go under, while subsidy money keeps this dog afloat.

I'm sure Southwest would be more than happy to continue flying to those other cities if they would write a check.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
I'm sure Southwest would be more than happy to continue flying to those other cities if they would write a check.

In most cases, I think you are correct. It's smart business and that's a huge chunk of change. I just find it surprising how crappy those loads are.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25127 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8088 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
The issue for WN at ICT will be F9. The competition will limit fares to the West.

Unless ICT continues the half million dollar subsidy to Frontier, I can't think why that airline would stay.

Those big Airtran subsidies have cost ICT Delta service to other destinations:

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg35107.html

"Delta dropping seven Wichita flights amid spat over subsidies

Delta Air Lines, which has been battling the city over subsidies
given to rival Air Tran Airways, has announced it is dropping seven of its
daily flights from Wichita's Mid-Continent Airport.

The discontinued flights include three to Salt Lake City, two to Cincinnati
and two to Atlanta, airport director Tom Nolan said. The move takes effect
July 1."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8046 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
Quoting joeljack (Reply 14):
No way...it won't be that many flights.

What is the minimum number of flights/day to support a WN station? I thought it was ten (10)? (Note: I'm asking.)

I know several stations opened with 8 or 9 per day. I think we'll see some smaller stations with the Airtran merger. (pure speculation). ECP for example opened with 8 flights/day.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2864 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8006 times:

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
Looks like WN wanted to make sure the subsidies would remain before they committed.

At first I thought the article stated WN wanted $7 million per year to keep/start ICT service! But after re-reading it I realized that figure constitutes the entire Kansas Affordable Airfares program - a pool that WN wants access to but hasn't asked for anything specific (in terms of $). Obviously that pot also covers other things like F9 to DEN.

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
The article below mentions WN is doing a market study to see which routes they will enter. My guess would be DAL, DEN, MDW, and LAS. What are your thoughts?

My guess is that ATL won't be served nonstop anymore. FL relied on the subsidies even with its low costs and extensive hub connectivity beyond ATL. As WN scales back ATL from a major connecting complex to a leaner operation geared primarily at Atlanta's O&D, the flights will only start to do worse.

The obvious choices are MDW, DEN, and DAL (each 2-3x daily). These options cater to ICT's O&D while also offering excellent access to the entire WN network. I'm pretty sure US left a void when it recently terminated PHX (and this may or may not have been met by G4's new AZA service), so it could make sense for WN to fly there. To facilitate one-stop connections to popular Florida markets (MDW is too far out of the way, DAL is still bound by Wright Amendment until 2014) it may be necessary to serve STL and/or HOU in some fashion as well - assuming ATL is dropped.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
25 Flytravel : CRP has 5 but it's at the edge of the country and all service is to HOU. JAN has 6, and CHS and GSP have 7. So, in a situation where it's flights in
26 FlyPNS1 : This was largely a fabrication by DL. CVG and SLC service performed poorly and was going to be cut regardless of FL. ATL service today has more capac
27 atrude777 : Just a guessing game, didn't say it was a fact. It is to my understanding SWA did NOT collect for ECP as the flights on it's own was enough for South
28 Post contains links mariner : I think the issue was the subsidies - understandably. Allegiant isn't too happy about them, either: http://www.kansas.com/2011/02/20/172...ant-may-co
29 BobLoblaw : I see WN flying: DEN 2-3 MDW 2-3 DAL-3 PHX 1 LAS 1 9-11 flights per day. I dont think MCI will be added.
30 Post contains links CitationJet : The Boeing plant in Wichita is shutting down in 2013, with the loss of 2,100 jobs. No more Boeing in Wichita after 80 years. http://www.sfgate.com/cg
31 atrude777 : I know, you cut off my sentence...I kept saying in the same sentence... Alex
32 CitationJet : Delta has started mainline service back to ICT from ATL on January 5, 2012 using A319 aircraft. .
33 Post contains images CitationJet : You are right. I don't know how I didn't see the rest of your sentence. My apologies.....
34 atrude777 : No Worries, but you bring up a good point. ICT is losing quite a bit of potential customers business wise from the closing of Boeing's Plant. I am cu
35 DCA-ROCguy : Not for a subsidized route they aren't. Take a look at some EAS markets sometime. Whatever losses of service Wichita suffers from DL (and as FlyPNS1
36 mariner : When I did dispute that? All I said is that it has ramifications for other airlines and other service. If Southwest is going to get a big piece of th
37 Kcrwflyer : No amount of financial backing makes the loads any better. They're garbage. The route is paid for but the ridership is garbage. EAS is a joke, this i
38 wnflyguy : I see ICT with 1 LAS 2 DEN 2 STL 1 ATL 2 DAL. WNFG
39 MLI717fan : I wonder if G4 will pull their LAS flight. Given their avoidance of routes with competition and unhappiness with the subsidies, I could see that happ
40 Gunsontheroof : Interesting idea if the Boeing plant in Wichita hadn't been scheduled for closure recently...they may have been able to make this work. I can't imagi
41 md94 : I hope WN entering the market will help bring fares down to a reasonable level. I have a difficult time finding fares for under $400 between ORD - ICT
42 CitationJet : TWA flew SEA-ICT years ago for a short while.
43 Splitterz : I think it is such garbage that carriers get subsidies to start service. Especially a carrier like WN, product recognition should easily be enough.[Ed
44 PI767 : How did a thread about Southwest become a thread about Frontier?
45 Post contains links atrude777 : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...f-airtrans-wichita-service-366918/ Key Points to note... --The Dallas-based airline, however, released a statem
46 BMI727 : Of course there still is Spirit and their 11,000 people (not all in ICT though) but I doubt they will generate enough travel to Seattle or Charleston
47 zippyjet : My guess would be BWI-ICT Since BWI is one of the largest in our operation it could be a good routing point for points in the Northeast including the
48 ginger727 : The press release below is all that the Wichita and Kansas folks announced today about Southwest service. It basically says that AirTran will remain i
49 Post contains images point2point : Interesting pick, as this would also give ICT at least a foothold in the nations capital, and somewhat supported with O&D, as well as open up the
50 IADLHR : quote=usxguy,reply=17]Eh.. I think its going to look more like:[/quote] quote=usxguy,reply=17]PHX or ABQ - 1[/quote] PHX or ABQ - 1 ICT-ABQ might just
51 Post contains links CitationJet : You are correct, there was flights from both ICT to DCA and ICT to LGA non-stop in the late 80's. The link below shows the route map for November 1,
52 QANTAS747-438 : EXACTLY. Thank you. Nobody has mentioned being able to get to the East Coast from ICT. Don't forget, a pax has to be able to get from point to point
53 KELPkid : ICT is definitely too small to support both DL and FL to the same destination. Hence why Airtran needed subsidies. And yes, Airtran connects with...A
54 CALPSAFltSkeds : If WN is getting a subsidy, my guess is they will just make a stop on current overflies, making sure there is through traffic already sitting on the a
55 mariner : More ICT pax fly to ATL than any other city, and a major purpose of the fund - the subsidy - is to guarantee low fares. So is it established that Air
56 BobLoblaw : Good point, Ill throw that in there along with MDW DEN DAL LAS PHX ATL definitely will be dropped. It is ICT lowest LF market from ATL on FL and WN i
57 EricR : This is an interesting statement. While WN is running out of larger markets to serve (though I think there are a few more out there), WN still has th
58 Cubsrule : A comparison with LIT, which obviously has WN service, might be instructive (before anyone crows, these are faremeasure numbers for Q410, rounded to
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