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AF / KL Restructuring  
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 551 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14036 times:

I'd like to continue the discussion about AFKL restructuring, after the previous thread was closed due to ongoing bickering.

It will we interesting what measures both companies will take in the short and long term to stem further losses and/or improve profitabiliy.

KL's plans seem to be pretty straightforward, with no direct fulltime job losses or paycuts/freezes. The reduction in workforce will be achieved by regular attrition and not renewing temporary contracts. Fleet simplification will be done by accellerating MD11 retirements, as the A333's begin to roll in. That's pretty much it for the short to medium term. In the medium to long run KL will seek concessions from the unions when it comes to work rules. A lot can be gained on longhaul sectors, where KL-crew has a disproportionate amount of time off after returning to base compared to the likes of LH and BA. On short haul, KL FA's are presently not allowed to fly more than three sectors a day, compared to four for pilots. KL would probably prefer the 737 crews to fully adapt the Cityhopper (E-jet and Fokker) workrules, allowing even more productivity. Although that may prove to be a bridge to far at this point.

Anyone any idea what the plans are at AF?

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13724 times:

Don't know what the AF plans are, but i could imagine that the remaining 7474 and A340's might leave the fleet sooner after all. I think a lot depends on how the new regional bases turn out to be profitable.. but i wouldn't be suprised if they will shut down most of the Orly services so they can reduce costs and focus on CDG.

Does anyone know how Cityjet is doing? wouldnt be suprised if they cut one or more of the regional airlines and concentrate at one, again to cut costs..

As for KLM, i understand that the first MD-11 will leave the fleet sooner than 2016, as indeed the A330-300's start rolling in... first frame to be ''replaced'' will be the PH-KCH, Ana Pavlova.. don't know the exact date though.

The F70's are due to leave the fleet in 2016, but again i wouldn't be suprised to see an order very soon, without one on one replacement. A big issue for both airlines in utilization of the current fleet.


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13665 times:

AF and KL have recently stated hat they need to move more upmarket.

But in view of other recent comments, I suspect the move is only gonna apply to longhaul operations, which in my view is a big mistake...


User currently offlinesofianec From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 240 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13601 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 2):
But in view of other recent comments, I suspect the move is only gonna apply to longhaul operations, which in my view is a big mistake...

Exactly my view. Focusing too much on long-haul is okay however is also heavily dependant on feed into hubs. They need to fix short-haul pronto. Flying from secondary cities direct is a great idea but an expensive one. KLM is well positioned, has always been - their AMS operation is a well-oiled machine. CDG on the other hand is a mixed bad.

---



A350WARP
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13534 times:

Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions (AF indeeds reportedly eyes trading more flexible working conditions with less on-board staff with lower service standards).

User currently offlineAmsterdam From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13378 times:

AF won't become stronger if they don't change their mentality.
The main problem of the French is their mentality, everything else comes after that.
But the hardest thing to change is also mentality.

As the people from Rotterdam say: No words, but deeds.
They have to show it, before anyone will believe it.


User currently offlineVictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13254 times:

What I think is going to be interesting is the role of Delta in the restructured network. DL's diverse, lower-cost fleet could be used to backfill TATL capacity lost due to AF/KL choosing to park the AF 744, AF 340, and/or KL M11 fleets. This is a knob to turn to optimize joint venture profitability, and DL could benefit.

Also, I could see some sort of a deal/joint venture with TN, such that passengers flying CDG-PPT fly CDG-NRT/LAX on AF and then NRT/LAX-PPT on TN.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 12821 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions

As a AMS-LON regular I much prefer KL over BA on this route. Both off a drink and snack service (ie crisps or biscuit) but the KL planes seems fresher and more modern with friendlier staff.


User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17079 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12712 times:

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
On short haul, KL FA's are presently not allowed to fly more than three sectors a day, compared to four for pilots.

Why do they have this seemingly strange rule? If anything it should be the other way around.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17672 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12647 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions

That's a dead end since passengers will not pay for it. Just look across the pond to see where this is headed....

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 6):
DL's diverse, lower-cost fleet could be used to backfill TATL capacity lost due to AF/KL

AF/KL's costs are tough--if they can't sustain markets like SEA/PHL/EWR/ORD year round but DL can (some of them), it's a good indication that AF/KL's costs are uncompetitive. If they're uncompetitive across the Atlantic, you can bet they're uncompetitive Eastbound as well, compared to major threats from the Gulf, Southeast Asia, and TK.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 2):
AF and KL have recently stated hat they need to move more upmarket.

That's not a bad idea, whilst simultaneously reducing unit costs. AF/KL's front cabin products really are no longer competitive with just about anyone. And in the back, I'm afraid 10 across in a 777 is going to be the norm, and just the beginning.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAOMlover From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 1305 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12516 times:

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 5):
The main problem of the French is their mentality, everything else comes after that.

Care to elaborate ? I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.


User currently onlinenipoel123 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12458 times:

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 10):
Care to elaborate ? I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.

Dutch prejudice against the french. But as they seem to have the highest number of strikes in Europe, I guess there is a sense of truth in there...



one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
User currently offlineklmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12197 times:

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
In the medium to long run KL will seek concessions from the unions when it comes to work rules. A lot can be gained on longhaul sectors, where KL-crew has a disproportionate amount of time off after returning to base compared to the likes of LH and BA.

May I ask what is your source for this info?

Do yo know about a referendum held by KLM amongst cabin crew many years ago in which they had to choose between
money or time-off. They chose the latter. The results today are indeed that KLM crews have more time-off after each flight,
but the paycheck is also significantly less compared to BA an LH.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12053 times:

Quoting klmcedric (Reply 12):
but the paycheck is also significantly less compared to BA an LH.

But if you compare the new BA contract then KLM employees receive alot more $$$$ (and time off!)


User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11877 times:

Do AF and KL share the same objectives?
They must become one fully integrated company under one brand.
This marriage reminds me of SR's "Hunter Strategy" and the parallels are striking in how to sink an airline.
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?


User currently offlinemauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11691 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?

Good point, but they worked fine for the premium 4 to 10 hours flights... they will be replaced from 2016 (787-9), but there are strong indications that the first one will leave the fleet soon (this year) around march/april, PH-KCH..

[Edited 2012-01-14 13:47:29]

After some research from reliable sources i can tell that both KCH and KCI will most probably leave the fleet in 2012, and will be scrapped.. The MD-11 will be gone in 2014.

There are also rumours that KL will get some AF A330's untill the 787 arrives, but those rumours are... just rumours, the news about the MD-11 is a bit more reliable, although i cant 100% confirm.


[Edited 2012-01-14 23:10:23 by SA7700]

User currently offlineraptors From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11300 times:

I have heard that KLM will retire two MD-11's from the summer schedule, these will be scrapped as most parts have to be sourced from FedEX who hold a majority of the spares available and they don't come cheap. Two others will be parked and will be available as standby aircraft, again from the summer schedule. This will leaves six aircraft in the schedule and is obviously the beggining of the end for these lovely birds.

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?

The reason they still operate the MD-11 is because the fuel economy isn't bad (although not as good as the more modern aircraft granted) but the leasing company cannot get rid of them so the lease payments for them are rock bottom thus making it worth while for KLM to carry on with them for as long as they have.

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):

Do AF and KL share the same objectives?
They must become one fully integrated company under one brand.

Not going to happen any time soon as the French are unlikely to give up on AIRFRANCE and KLM is a strong brand in it's own right. In fact things work out pretty well as the two carriers are opposite and meeting in the middle allows for a good relationship............on the whole.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):

Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions (AF indeeds reportedly eyes trading more flexible working conditions with less on-board staff with lower service standards).


This is already taking shape, there have been many improvements in the last couple of years including KLM returning to a more spacious short haul Business Class product which includes keeping the middle seat free, this was not the case a couple of years ago.

AIRFRANCE has also upgraded it's Business Class product and offers a class in between Business and Economy which is doing quite well by all accounts. Although these things take time it is certainly a step in the right direction.



SSC/111/146/AR8/AT7/AN3/AB4/6/310/319/20/21/332/3/343/6/703/722/732-9/74L/2/4/F/752/3/772/3/W/E170/190/CR7/9
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11047 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
(AF indeeds reportedly eyes trading more flexible working conditions with less on-board staff with lower service standards

How can service standards be lowered on AF's domestic, European and longhaul Eco flights? They already are VERY low.

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 10):
Care to elaborate ? I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.

1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

Quoting raptors (Reply 17):
AIRFRANCE has also upgraded it's Business Class product

Really? When? What have they done?

If it is their "new" longhaul business class introduced last year then let me assure that it is a mere variation of the old angled seat that comes in a 2-3-2 configuration on 777s and 2-2-2 on A330/A340. Bigger screen but less comfortable. The rest hasn't changed.

In other news AFKL announces that its loss for 2011 will exceed EUR 500 MM. Source is an article in Les Echos in France (you can find it on their website)


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10720 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 11):
But as they seem to have the highest number of strikes in Europe

Based on what? I think Italians and Greeks are on top of those list. I do not have any numbers but as I have many French relatives, the French do better than Spanish, Greek, Italian e.g.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 5):
The main problem of the French is their mentality

What is French mentality? Customer Service? This is stigmatising subjective nonsense!! I think it is more an attitude like Mozart perfectly describes in reply 18: realise it is a job like any others (no elite), try to work like the employees of - let's say - SQ, MH e.g. and abandon those amazing benefits in their labour agreements which).

Quoting mauriceb (Reply 15):
they will be replaced from 2016 (787-9

I thought that the A333 will be used to replace four MD-11s?

Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

You got it right!


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10519 times:

Quoting raptors (Reply 17):
This is already taking shape, there have been many improvements in the last couple of years including KLM returning to a more spacious short haul Business Class product which includes keeping the middle seat free, this was not the case a couple of years ago.

AIRFRANCE has also upgraded it's Business Class product and offers a class in between Business and Economy which is doing quite well by all accounts. Although these things take time it is certainly a step in the right direction.

KL has indeed upgrade its Europe Select product in the right way, but AF has unfortunately done the opposite. While one can certainly welcome the introduction of Premum Eco, service standards in Premium Affaires have declined, and are now thos of a Y+ rather than a genuine C Class, not cheap though.

20 yrs ago, AF had a very high-flying product in Le Club class on European flights...

Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
How can service standards be lowered on AF's domestic, European and longhaul Eco flights? They already are VERY low.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
I think that a minimum of references is needed here, and not just hearsay from the girlfriend of the brother-in-law of the uncle of Greta's husband.
That sentence is called "a twaddle", I think.

Not a twaddle, it s been in the press, sadly...


As far as French mentality is concerned, I don't see any problem here. Defunct Air Littoral and TAT would provide a pretty good service, with a "hands-on" minded staff.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17672 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 20):
Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

You got it right!

And as soon as we're done with that, we'll break for coffee and then fix the Middle East quickly  
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 21):
20 yrs ago, AF had a very high-flying product in Le Club class on European flights...

20 years ago it cost an arm and a leg to hop around Europe, and then half that to continue across the Atlantic.

Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
How can service standards be lowered on AF's domestic, European and longhaul Eco flights? They already are VERY low.

Comment dit-on "buy on board"?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 8674 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?

Given the MD fleet is not being fully utilised - I'd say they should (if they really had the desire) be able to retire them by the end of 2012 - esp given the newer deliveries this year and also the 747 fleet not being fully utilised to its max potential.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1851 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8283 times:

Quoting mauriceb (Reply 1):
but i wouldn't be suprised if they will shut down most of the Orly services so they can reduce costs and focus on CDG

There is no way AF will shut down operations at ORY. That would be a HUGE mistake.


User currently offlinelexer From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8199 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 22):
There is no way AF will shut down operations at ORY. That would be a HUGE mistake.

Why?


User currently offlinenantoine From France, joined Apr 2004, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 5):
The main problem of the French is their mentality, everything else comes after that.

Wow, talk about painting with a broad brush.
I wonder if the large number of Dutch happily living in southern France agree with you?

No-one would tolerate this kind of comment for another country... yet it has somehow become socially acceptable (even fashionable?) to bash on the French.

Please focus on Air France, and not "the French".


25 SR4ever : No, AF Business class on European flights was cheaper than it is now, and of better content.
26 AirGabon : You are 100% right! If the same would have been said about Indian "mentality" or any other country, it would have been quickly deleted. I know that m
27 Nomik : Bring back good old ATLAS and KSSU!
28 Nomik : AF will launch an HV equivalent and merge budget ops with KL into one brand for European routes.
29 shamrock604 : Agree completely. In fact, even at AF, industrial action has been rare over the last few years - it's usually ATC, ground handlers, security and othe
30 76er : May I ask what is your source for this info? Do yo know about a referendum held by KLM amongst cabin crew many years ago in which they had to choose
31 notaxonrotax : Your sources seem to be on the ball! What great details. What did mother Theresa and Anna Pavlova do to be downgraded to "spare parts"?? Are they hig
32 JRadier : [/quote] ATLAS, yes please! KSSU, please junk that shit!!!
33 Viscount724 : In my experience, AF pilots and cabin crew have a much lower standard of English than KL, LX, LH, SK, AY, OS, among other carriers from countries whe
34 mauriceb : They are actually 2 of the younger frames (1997 and 1995 i think) but they are up for D-checks, and KL isnt willing to invest so much money into them
35 Post contains images md11dude : Oh? And the your source for this info is? IWhy the heck would you scrap a useful aircraft. Its odd that these aircraft are really not that old, and t
36 goldorak : Of course, concentrating on one airport makes you save money at first instance, but if AF leaves ORY, then you can be sure that U2 will fill the gap
37 polot : If parts are expensive and hard to find then it makes sense to scrap some of the fleet. While demand was relatively high for MD-11s, it has softened
38 varig md-11 : Merci Mozart I would add as recommendations to AF staff before any restructuration starts 1- give a reason to customers to buy AF over QR EK EY eastb
39 SASMD82 : True, very true. A fleet of 10 B744 and 15 A343 is not a mini fleet. Replacing them with second hand B772 or newly build A333 (more fuel efficient th
40 varig md-11 : Its not a mini fleet indeed but it's clumsy. On one hand a 450 seats (400 of which Y) 744 , on the other hand 15 A343 and what it implies... Standard
41 76er : Okay, we're 40 posts on, but I still have not read what AF is going to DO to restructure. Apart from freezing wages.
42 frigatebird : My girlfriend was on an AF flight to JNB 2 weeks ago. As it was an A380 flight, I was very interested in how she experienced in comparison with a fli
43 jetlag73 : Hi Frigatebird, Thanks for the feedback of AF A380. While I think AF J is far below competition, I also think AF Y is most of the times above competit
44 mozart : Err... she *did* realise that she was flying with Air *FRANCE*, right? I find it funny how some English native speakers accuse other countries/compan
45 notaxonrotax : I agree with you mister Mozart. KLM does the same, so does Lufthansa etc etc etc. It is their prerogative........... However, I think he didnt mean t
46 Paul787 : When I flew KL on AMS-WAW-AMS segment, the announcements were made in Dutch (obviously I didn't understand a word), English, and there was a short an
47 B747forever : That is not only isolated to AF. About a week ago I flew SFO-AMS and after takeoff the pilot spoke in Dutch for a VERY long time. After a short pause
48 Post contains images tff : I agree. And it's not even a fleet of 15 A343s, but a fleet of 30 A332s+A343s. I'm not sure what a "clumsy fleet" would be, but the discussion before
49 notaxonrotax : Oh sure, you´ll find all sorts. A year ago, I was woken in the middle of a MD-11 red-eye because the KLM captain hit a certain amount of flight hour
50 varig md-11 : Sooo...is that shocking that French comes first on Air FRANCE? If you want to know there is the law "Toubon" nº 94-665 du 4 août 1994 which makes i
51 76er : Thanks Varig. Is this your own idea, or has this officially been announced by AF?
52 varig md-11 : This is the commonly accepted idea of non-AF people knowing how it works there... U2 is transporting around 50 million pax per anum with around 1000 a
53 Post contains images 76er : Alrighty then. So we still don't now what AF's plans are...
54 Post contains links panamair : http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr...tine-a-restaurer-sa-rentabilite-1/
55 frigatebird : Yes. It all contributed to a feeling, as a passenger, of being a burden to the crew. Instead of feeling welcome. What was important to her, was that
56 theginge : Not always so easy to compare passengers per employee and such like, low cost carriers out source a lot more like ground handling. Full service carri
57 kl838 : I flew Air France about a month ago, and I was immediately disappointed with the catering and even professionalism of their crew. For a 12 hour flight
58 jetlag73 : I'm with you 100% on that one. Eventhough I'm French, I just can't get used to that apparent boredom and carelessness I can see most times on AF's cr
59 draigonair : Anyone have any idea which MD11 routes will be replaced by the A330? cheers
60 76er : Today the Dutch pilot union VNV-Dalpa is reporting to its members that AF has cancelled all collective labor agreements as of may 2013. Interesting de
61 krisyyz : Well I won't go into my experience with AF but I have only positive comments about KL. I booked YYZ-AMS-BUD with KL last week for a trip in April. The
62 Charles79 : Not sure if directly related but Air France's website has a notification to its passengers regarding an industrial dispute (strike?) scheduled for 6
63 Post contains images kl911 : Lol, they should leave that notification there nonstop. No use putting it on every other day.
64 LHRFlyer : You don't need to be able to read French to get the gist of this!!!
65 76er : Actually, I can't make heads or tails out of this. Please enlighten us.
66 LHRFlyer : Air France wants to reset all of its labour agreements. Annex 3 lists all of the agreements for just one workgroup. With that sort of complexity you
67 mozart : I do read French and "the gist of this" is the agenda for a meeting with the company's employees. The company will inform about its cancelling all ex
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